More but different O'Gorman

Happy New Year Colleen!

Thanks Roger, Col and Grealish for your suggestions on this so far - its seems Colleen that we have tried as best we can to find out more about your Grandfather and can't seem to progress it any further. Records may become available in the future but it seems the parish records at least, have provided all the information they can at this time.

Best wishes

Clare Doyle

Genealogy Support 

Thank you Tom!

Clare

Genealogy Support 

Mr. Hussey,  How generous of you to research for me and I thank you.  I am going to look over everything here and from my other records and try to make sense of it all.  If only . . . .  

I am still at a loss of why my grandfather named Margaret Dunne as his mother on his marriage application to my grandmother, in New York.  Did people 'borrow/steal' identities those years ago too and he in fact not really who he claimed?  And what does Thurles have to do in this puzzle?  

My father's oldest brother is still living and was about 15 yrs old in 1943, when they last saw their father.  I am hoping he can clarify even one or two mysteries.  

I am making a visit in October and will certainly be exploring.  

My most sincere thank you again,

Colleen O'Gorman

I am so appreciative of all your assistance. I am in Thurles today and tomorrow. Where would you suggest I visit to ask about records?

Colleen O'Gorman

Dear Colleen

I hope you have a good visit - apologies that some technical work that took place on our message board notifications prevented your message reaching Tom in time. We regret this delay and appreciate that your trip to Thurles could have been more useful to your search if Tom had been able to meet with you. Apologies to you too Tom.

Regards

Clare Doyle

Genealogy Support

Dear All you wonderful helpers,

I have located a 1901 census that is of great interest.  This is the URL:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Castlecomer/L…

I know Kilkenny is relatively near Thurles and I am hoping this John might lead me down a clearer path.  Is there any helpful records you might be able to locate accordingly?

Again, I am so very grateful.

Colleen O'Gorman

Tom,  No apologies necessary.  I have seen these records and just can't reconcile why my grandfather would name Margaret Dunne as his mother instead of Alice.  Not only that, my grandparents named one of my uncles Dunne (middle name).  We have no Alice's.  

Are there any other John Gorman's and Margaret Dunne's who got married and had a son named John born sometime between 1890 and 1899?   How about that John Gorman/O'Gorman who might have died sometime after 1942?  There is a good chance my grandfather returned to Ireland around that time and maybe stayed.  

Can you check on that angle?

Thank you

Colleen

Hi Colleen,

How are you? The O'Gormans from Ballylanigan are my family - but I'm not exactly sure if you have the right family. If you have any questions, let me know and I'll check with my Mum or my uncle. 

AM

AM,  Thank you very much for your message.  I am not sure the results I have been given are correct either.  If you have followed along you will see that my Grandfather named his parents as John Gorman and Margaret Dunne from Thurles, Ireland.  The answer I got here, while deeply appreciated, contridictes his statement that Margaret Dunne was his mother, not Alice.  Are you related to the John that married both Margaret and Alice?

I went to Thurles in October and visited a researcher at the genealogy center.  She was not able to help me very much at all.  I just wonder how true this man was?  

I have located nothing about him in the US except a census record and marriage to my grandmother.  

Were there any Gorman or O'Gorman men in your family that came to the US shortly before 1930 and might have traveled back and forth between the two countries for a number of years and then either staying in Ireland or dying sometime after 1942.  He is such a mystery.  My father was 8 yrs old when their dad left like he did but this time did not return. Maybe he just missed his Island too much.  I can understand that, I love it too.  

My Grandmother lived to be about 83 years old and was still wearing her wedding band and engagement ring.  She passed away in 1988 and unfortunately, I was not as interested in family history as I am today.  Grandfather would have been a young adult during the Uprising and I feel that event had something to do with both him leaving Ireland and going back.  

It would be so wonderful if you might uncover some information for me about this man.  Maybe he went back to Ireland and had a whole new family.  That would be very exciting.  I will provide any information I can if possible.  I just have so little to tell.

Thank you so much and good luck hunting,

Colleen O'Gorman  

Hi Colleen,

It's really lovely to hear from you. I came across your posts by chance and was mesmerised to see my family history being discussed!! 

And what a great job, Tom. A very impressive investigation. I hope that I can be of some help by adding more details.

My direct line have all lived in Ireland. 'John' has always been an important Christian name for my O'Gormans and was given to the first born son.

My paternal great grandfather John Gorman/O'Gorman married twice - after his first wife died (in Co Tipperary), His second wife is my paternal great grandmother, Alice Leahy. She and John did not emigrate. They stayed in Ballylanigan and raised their family in Mullinahone, Co Tipperary where many of the family still live. They had one son, also named John (my grandfather). 

My great grandfather also had a daughter by his first marriage and everyone (no matter what generation) called her Aunt Babs but her given name was Mary and she lived in Ireland too, subsequently marrying a Power. (She is listed on the residents list that Tom attached).

The usage of O' and Mac (as surname pre-fixes) in Ireland was frowned upon in Ireland before we gained our independence and we had to anglicize our names. Later, we went back to the Irish versions so this is the reason why the records show that sometimes we are Gormans and sometimes O'Gormans.

My paternal great great grandfather did not come from Tipperary. He had to leave his Kilkenny home after taking part in the Battle of Carricshock, Co Kilkenny when the Irish people rebelled against the imposition of tithes, which were unfair taxes. He stayed in Tipperary and subsequently got married there, in Ballylanigan. 

I understand that some of my forebearers are buried in Hugginstown, Co Kilkenny but to the best of my knowledge, we don't have living relatives in Carrickshock anymore.

You asked about relatives moving to America and the O'Gorman who came back for a period. On this, I have to check with my Mum & uncles who know much more than I do. 

I hope that this information is helpful?

All the best,

AM

Hi again Colleen,

As our O'Gorman roots may not be the same (or may be connected but further back than we are currently looking), I did a little search to see if I could find some O'Gormans in Thurles and came up with the below link.

If you scroll down towards the end of the information in the link, you can read some posts by a few "Thurles O'Gormans" (including an email address) who are discussing their roots. I don't know them but if you haven't come across them before, perhaps this may help you?

I'll continue to dig from my side as well.

All the best,

AM

The Monks Public House Thurles Tipperary | Hidden Tipperary

www.hiddentipperary.com/...tipperary-pubs/the-monks-public-house...
Michael O'Gorman, proprietor of “The Monks,” public house in Mitchel Street, 
Thurles, Co.Tipperary

AM,  Some how I missed these last two messages from you and it is with regret.  I believe you have identified John O'Gorman born to John and Alice in 1902 as your grandfather.  

To simplify: my grandfather was John P. O'Gorman who stated on his marriage application to my grandmother in New York.  He writes that his parents were John Gorman and Margaret Dunne living in Thurles.  This was January 1930.  

Was your grandfather ever in the United States?  When? 

I hope this does not seem intrusive, but I am grappeling with the possibility that the man we thought as John Patrick O'Gorman, was not.

Thank you for your time,

Colleen O'Gorman

Hi Colleen,

So sorry that I didn't see your post. Ask whatever you like as I completely understand that you want to know your family. Yes, John O'Gorman was my grandfather. He had no brothers. My grandfather was definitely not the man you are looking for because he didn't ever travel far from home. He was a handsome, family-orientated man with a natural engineering ability. His family and his farm occupied his time.

If you want, I can check if any of my family in Tipperary can help any further regarding your relative named John P and an American connection?

All the best,

AM

I have a relation Harriett O'Gorman from Cahir Co Tipperary arriving in Ellis Island in 1904 and being met by her Uncle John O'Gorman, who appears to be living in Pennsylvania at that time.  Anyone got anything on Harriett or John please?

I have searched  the Irish Genealogy site and found only three birth records for Harriet 0'Gorman in all of Ireland from 1865 to 1900. The records are as follows :

23 Feb 1880 Harriet Mary King Father :James Gorman ,Mother :Fanny King ,address           54 Gibson Street Belfast.

Harriet Mary born 14/01/ 1893 father John and Mother Dealia McNamara Brackloon Galway

Hattiet Mary ,Father James Gorman and mother Eliza Gorman (nee Cassidy) from ARMAGH

I could not link to the original post.

Regards

Tom Hussey

Tom, I attach the 1901 census showing Harriett O'Gorman in Bridge Street Cahir.  I also attach copy of the Ellis Island manifest showing Harriett arriving in New York on the Lucenia aged 19 and being met by her Uncle John O'Gorman, with a company name below showing a firm in Pittsburg.

Gerri and Colleen,

Thanks for highlighting the Harriet O'Gorman in 1901 census at Bridge Street Caher.However,I have attached a copy of marriage record in Cahir and the birth records for their children ; Denis (1886), John Partick (1888), Patrick (1890), Bridget (1891), Michael (1894), Johanna 1896 (who died young). I have Searched the Church and Civil records and have not found a Harriet O'Gorman in Cahir.

Regards

Tom Hussey

Hi Tom, I, too, have searched high & low for Harriett O'Gorman and apart from the 1901 Census and the Ellis Island record, I can't find anything else on her.  Why would she appear as a 16 year old daughter of Michael O'Gorman on the 1901 Census, if she wasn't his daughter?  Also of note, is the fact her date of birth appears to be 1885 and Michael married in 1855!!  Any ideas would be most welcomed.

Whoops!! typo above - Michael married in 1885!!

Hi Colleen,

I am trying to contact you about the O'Gorman family in Co Tipperary. 

I hope that you get this message.

Many thanks,

AM

My grandfather, Patrick O'Gorman's brother, John O'Gorman arriving in the USA in 1911.  His sister  Harriett O'Gorman arriving in 1904.  Patrick & John's parents were Michael O'Gorman and Johanna Bourke.  Stll searching for Michael O'Gorman's brother John O'Gorman who met Harriett on her arrival at Ellis Island.