Seeking birth records for siblings John William (born circa 1843 in Clones, Monaghan according to 1911 Census of England), James (circa 1823-1835) and Mary Anne (circa 1837) Clendenning (Clendinnen, Clindinning), father William. There were probably more children. We know that both James and Mary Anne were living in Mullicavan at the time of their marriages in 1854 and 1856 respectively..
Alison,
The townland of Mullycavan where your ancestors lived is actually in Co. Fermanagh. (Clones parish has parts in both Counties Fermanagh & Monaghan). Mullycavan is down some very minor roads between Newtownbutler and Roslea.
Griffiths Valuation (1862) lists William Clendinning on plot 3b in Mullycavan, a weaver/labourer’s house and garden. Nearby, on plot 9 was John Clendinning on a 2 acre farm. They may be related.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
Mary Anne’s marriage in 1856 was in Clones Church of Ireland. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church so if you are looking for baptism records that would be the place to start. That church has records from 1682 onwards. (That’s quite rare so you are lucky). Some years are on the rootsireland site but for all the records you will probably need to go to PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast where there is a copy you can access free.
The father William died in 1884. Son James of Magheranure (Co. Monaghan) was the informant.
I think this may have been William's wife Mary. Informant was Margaret Clindinning of Magheranure.
Margaret in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Clones_Rural/Magheranure/1631040/
She was Margaret Tierney. She married James in 1854.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…
James death in 1900 aged 76:
Here’s a marriage for a son William who married Eliza Nicholl in 1868:
1 Mullycavan household in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/Mullycavan/1362051/
That was the widow of John Clendinning, son of John on plot 9:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…
Elwyn,
Wow that was fast AND very informative. It is so good to see that my William is the one I thought it might be and that his wife was called Mary. I have been tracing a William Clendenning from Lisroon right next to Mullycavan who married a Mary Graham 1832 but I don't think it's my William as all the children's names are different except for James born 1832 in this family record.
Unfortunately I won't be heading off to PRONI in Belfast any time soon since I am in Canada and covid is delaying things!Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly.
Alison
Hello again Elwyn,
According to James death 1900 he was 76 years old which would make him born in 1824. William, his father, according to his death record was born 1818. yet James was the son of William....according to these records, they were only 6 years apart!
I know James lived in Maghernure and his wife was definitely Margaret Theirney and I have James will with his brother John and nephew Robert named beneficiaries. William, their father did live in Mullycavan.....but the birth dates don't work! Any thoughts on this?
Alison
Alison,
In general, people in Ireland in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays, didn’t have birth certificates or passports (though they might sometimes have had a baptismal cert) and often had little accurate idea of their ages. Most ages on official documents were just a guess.
Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited” perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:
“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
I have attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).
A particular problem with death certificates was that not only did the deceased often not know his/her age, but the informant was consequently even less likely to know. There seems to have been an aversion to saying “not known” and so a wild guess was an acceptable alternative. For someone in their 70s or 80s an error of 10 years or more in their actual age was not uncommon. You’ll need to look at the parish baptism certs to get an idea of who was related to whom, and when they were born.
Hello Elwyn,
I spent a day on the rootsireland site but with no additional results for birth records.. The site did say they have all the Church of Ireland baptismal records from1600's onwards. I checked the lot!! It's very frustrating that I can't find anything on John William in Ireland and no birth/baptismal info on Mary Anne. James could have been born in 1823 or 1832. The only Mary I can find is Mary Graham who married William C in Lisroon in 1832 and a James was born that year.
My father did think there was a Graham but that the husband was Thomas C who lived in Aughnacloy (he wrote Aughraclay?), County Tyrone. There were some Clendinnens living in Clogher earlier on (1700's) but I can't connect them to my family of William in Mullycavan.
I did discover that in the records, Clones was considered only in Monaghan until 1921 which could explain why John William in the 1911 England census said he was born in Clones, Monaghan.
If you have any more ideas it would be appreciated. Thank you.
Alison
Alison,
The town of Clones has always been in Monaghan. It hasn’t moved and neither did any county borders in that part of the country. Births, deaths and marriages in the parish of Clones which include parts of Fermanagh and Monaghan were recorded in Clones from the start of statutory registration in 1845. However at the end of 1921 Ireland was partitioned. Fermanagh went into what is now Northern Ireland and Monaghan into what is now the Republic of Ireland. That meant that any administrative district lines that crossed the new international border needed redrawn. So after 1.1.1922 births, death and marriages in the part of Clones parish in Fermanagh were registered in Lisnaskea, not Clones. Those in Monaghan continued to be registered in Clones.
The wording might be clearer but what is being explained is that when Ireland was partitioned there were some changes to administrative districts to reflect the new border. But the town of Clones has always been in Monaghan. In my opinion, if John William said he was born in Clones, Monaghan in 1911, then that’s where he was born. If he was born in Fermanagh, he would surely have said that?
My guide to Church of Ireland records indicates that Clones records start in 1682 and are apparently complete. However having spent a lot of time looking at the copies in PRONI over the years there are often entries and indeed whole pages that are illegible either because the ink has faded or from water damage etc. Plus Minsters were human and sometimes failed to record every baptism. Sometimes you’ll see “a child of John & Jane Smith” implying that the Minister forgot to record the child’s name. I have seen others where spaces have been left, clearly intended to be filled in later, but nothing was ever filled in. Or the child may not have been baptised. All of these factors can explain missing baptisms.
Elwyn,
Very intresting reply to Allison. If I may jump in here, my John Chambers who died in 1876 had his will registered in Lasnaskea. If he lived in Rosslea or Tattenbar could he have been registered in Lasnaskea at that time?
George J. Chambers
Elwyn,
Sorry, I was referring to Clones Parish not the Town of Clones which, I realize is in Monagan. My John William was born circa 1843 in Clones, Monaghan as stated on his !911 England Census. Was he not referring to Clones Parish? From what I understand, those who left, and I suspect he left for England around the age of 18, referred to their Parish as their birthplace???
Alison
Alison,
Folk sometimes used their parish and sometimes their townland. We get a lot of requests for help relating to fairly hard to read Irish place names on English or Scottish censuses and in general there’s a mix. Some used their parish, some their town or townland. I agree that most of Clones parish is in Monaghan but if you knew you were born in Fermanagh, would you still say it was Monaghan? I don’t know. I am not sure I have the answer to that. Or maybe he was born in Monaghan? It’s only a very small distance to Co. Monaghan (just a few miles) and people didn't always give birth at home. For the first child a wife often went back to her own home to be with her mother, so you see a lot of first born children born somewhere else. Maybe he was born there even though the family normally lived in Fermanagh?
George,
When you say the will was registered in Lisnaskea, I assume you mean it was signed and witnessed there? (There’s no system of formally registering wills in the UK or Ireland as such). If John wanted a solicitor to prepare his will there would not have been one in Rosslea, it’s too small. He’d have had a choice of Lisnaskea, Clones or Monaghan town. They’d be the nearest. Lisnaskea is about 12 miles from Rosslea. It sounds as though he chose to go there.
But that doesn’t mean births etc in Rosslea might have been registered there then. If someone was born, died or married in Rosslea or Tattenbar in 1876 then those events had to be registered in Clones, not Lisnaskea. The registration area boundaries changed on 1.1.1922 when partition of Ireland meant some had to be re-drawn to follow the new international border. Lisnaskea registration district then acquired what had previously been the Fermanagh portion of Clones registration district.
Perhaps I am at risk of going into too much detail, but there were Registrars in most small towns. Rosslea had one. So if you lived in or near Rosslea, when you registered a birth or death, you didn’t have to go to Clones or Lisnaskea, you went to the Registrar in Rosslea. (It was very often a second job for the local doctor.) That person then sent regular returns off to Clones, until 1.1.1922 when they would have gone to Lisnaskea instead.
The Registrar who signed John Chambers death certificate in 1876 was Alexander Knight. He was a doctor living in Clones, and would have been available in Rosslea by appointment, as required.
Elwyn,
I have just gone back to the Tithe Applotment Books to find Clendinnens and variations......Mullycavan, Anaghone (Annahone?) and Lisroon are all listed under Clones (the Parish), Monaghan 1832....all this is very confusing as in present time they would all be under Fermanagh. I have found this discrepancy a numer of times, but that could explain why john William stated in his 1911 Enland census record that he was born in Clones, Monaghan??? Thanks,
Alison
Alison,
I have a suggestion about church records. There are 2 other Church of Ireland churches in Clones parish. Aghadrumsee is a couple of miles west of Roslea and Clogh is a mile or two south. Aghadrumsee has baptism, marriage & burial records from 1821 and Clogh from 1811. Copies of both are held in PRONI. My guide to church records indicates Aghadrumsee’s are not on-line anywhere. It doesn’t list Clogh so I can’t advise if they may be on-line. But if the family aren’t showing up in the main Clones parish records then perhaps they used one or other of the other 2 churches, whose records were kept separately.
You can see the churches exact locations using the maps on the Church of Ireland website:
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/find-a-church
The tithes were primarily a tax on land and were paid to the church, so the records were compiled parish by parish, as that suited the church authorities best. Where a parish was in more than one county (which happened regularly) it was normal to lump them all together. Since most of Clones parish is in Co. Monaghan, the records appear in various sites as all under Co. Monaghan, but that’s not accurate. Some actually relate to Fermanagh.
Partition of Ireland in 1922 did not affect the border between Fermanagh & Monaghan. It wasn’t re-drawn, and no townlands have been moved. Likewise the boundaries of the parish of Clones today are still the same, and clergy work in both parts just as pre 1922. In Fermanagh a service will usually include a prayer for the Queen and in Monaghan a prayer for the President of Ireland, but otherwise the parish continues as a single unit.
If you want to see which county a particular townland is actually in, you might find this site helpful. If you put in the parish of Clones (and leave everything else blank) it will show you all the townlands in the whole parish, ie both counties. If you then enter Fermanagh it will filter out those in Monaghan (or vice versa obviously).
Regarding spelling, the Seanruad site lists what might be described as a modern standardized version but in the past there was no such thing. The idea of a single or correct spelling for a surname or a place name in Ireland is very much a recent phenomenon designed to meet the needs of modern officialdom. Before that there was no consistency. Names were spelled phonetically and each variation was down to the whim of the particular person recording the information. You will often see the spelling change as the records go back. This rarely indicates a deliberate decision to alter the name, nor even a mistake. Not everyone was literate, but even when they were, exact and consistent spelling simply wasn’t something they bothered about.
In 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736). He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”
So expect spelling to vary. That was the norm.
Hello again Elwyn,
Thank you so much for all your painstaking detail. I have looked up the churches you mentioned and it really does make sense that William's family may have frequented especially the Clogh Church as it was the closest one to Lisroon. It appears that they moved to Mullycavan between1846 and 1850 having lost their farm. I have contacted COI to do a search for me but will now include the two churches in Fermanagh.
One more question.....in the 1800's how old must a defendant be who is to appear in a Petty Sessions Court?
All the best,
Alison
Alison,
My understanding is that there was no minimum age. There were no juvenile courts then and the Petty Sessions dealt with offences committed by teenagers and younger. I have attached a report on a case in 1871 at Clones Petty Sessions of a 6 year old charged with begging, who was ordered to be sent to an Industrial school. Astonishing in today’s terms, but there you are. (Fourth column, near the bottom).
Elwyn,
Your replies have been very informative. Now I have a few more questions regarding my Chambers kin:Thomas who died 11 Feb1895, aged 91, his nsister Martha who died in 1896, aged 86, and his brother (?) John who died in 1876, ag 75. I have extracted ALL Chambers individuals from Griffith's but these are only names and places with no relationships. Perhaps death certificates would provide names to set me on another path. As I mentioned previously, I've traced my people here in the U.S. from their arrival until their deaths.
Can death certificates be obtained from PRONI at this time? Can you recommend a reliable genealogist who could do the research and get copies for me? If so what would be a good rate? I've been burned here in the U.S. by a genealogist (??) who did poor work such as incomplete photocopies, blurred photocopies, not doing the obvious next step, etc.
Thank you for your reply.
George J. Chambers
California
George,
Griffiths just listed the head of household. It was compiled for taxation purposes, based on the assessed rental value of the buildings and land, not on the number of occupants (as some modern jurisdictions operate today). So Griffiths weren’t interested in who else lived there. Their entries could be someone living alone or there could be 20 there. No way of knowing. Sometimes where there were two people of the same name with property in the townland you would get extra information to distinguish them, but that’s all.
The 3 death certificates you are enquiring about are all available on-line free on the irishgenealogy site:
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
But to make it easy for you, I looked them up myself Martha died in 1898 not 1896:
This is a Mary Chambers, brother of Thomas, who died in 1886, aged 45:
As far as recommending researchers who might go to PRONI, if you still need one, there’s a list here:
PRONI is completely closed at present due to Covid but hopefully that will change in the next few months. Researchers in NI charge anywhere between £15 and £50 an hour depending on their skills. I’d aim for the lower end of the scale.
Elwyn,
Thank you for your prompt, informative reply. Adding the various site was a bonus. I have a friend who grew up in the Belfast area. Maybe I could impose on her to go to PRONI the next time she goes home.
George J. Chambers
Westminster, California