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Naming patterns - Tully family

MayoAnnagh (Mayo)

Hello,

I am writing to ask for your advice about a naming pattern. My ancestors in Corncarta, Annagh Parish, are listed in Griffiths Valuation as Patrick Sr, Patrick Jr, John and Bartley Tully. From what I've read about Griffiths, Patrick Sr and Patrick Jr would be listed as such to distinguish them as father and son.

My question arises because Both Patrick Jr and John named their first sons, Owen. In the traditional naming pattern, the first son would be named after the child's paternal grandfather, who would be Patrick Sr. In this case, would it be correct to think that Owen was the name of Patrick Sr's father? I was assuming that this was the case but I'd be grateful for some confirmation that this was also an accepted naming pattern.

Secondarily, if it can help to clarify who Owen would be, I would like to mention that Patrick Jr named his 3rd son Patrick which is consistent with naming the 3rd son after himself (the father of the child). However, John named his 2nd son Patrick which according to naming patterns, would be named after the child's maternal grandfather.

It gets a bit confusing but I would very much appreciate any advice you could give me regarding this.

Sincerely, Cindy

CMST

10 replies

Dear Cindy:

Many thanks for your post to the Ireland Reaching Out message board!

As to naming patterns, they were very common in the 1800s, but not always followed all of the time.

The name "Owen" was also another form for John as was the first name "Sean" and "Eoghan"--another variant spelled as "Eoin". 

In many cases,  the fact that the same names are used again and again with each successive generation is better evidence of that particular first name being associated with the family as opposed to whether it was a grandfather/great-grandfather etc. 

In your case, it is possible that the two families were related, and it would be a good idea to try to figure out how the four Tullys are related.   You might also try to trace them from Griffith's Valuation through the 1901 Census if some of them remained in Ireland. 

Bartley is not a very common first  name, and that might be a further clue in your Tully research. 

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us. 

The very best of luck!

Kind regards,

Jane.

 

jhalloranryan@…

Cindy,

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are:

when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can’t really have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name is needed though some families did actually use the same name again on the birth certificate, but differentiated with another more informal name for day to day use. So if you had two Georges (as per birth certs) you just called one of them something else eg Simon;

if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. And if you don’t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong;

Or if a close relative had just died and their name was used out of respect.

I have also noticed that many families liked to name the odd child after the local Minister/Priest, schoolteacher or a relative with no children of their own.

Sometimes people were christened with one name, but went by a different one (and would appear in censuses and other records by that alternative name), eg Henry & Harry or Ann & Nancy.

So for all these reasons, whilst tradition says, for example, that the 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother, it isn’t always so.

I agree that jnr & snr in Griffiths usually means father & son. Where they are not related, some other name or nickname is given in brackets to distinguish them. It's called an agnomen.

 

 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thank you very much, Jane and Elwyn, for your very helpful replies.  I would like to add a little more information in case it would help to clarify the question about the name Owen.

I have done a lot of research about this Tully family (of Cornacarta,Carrickmac + Kildarra), including the 1901 censuses.  Based on this and other family information, I'm guessing that John and Patrick Jr were brothers.  Bartley may have been a brother of Patrick Sr. (This family,  by the way, came from Co Roscommon and probably arrived in Cornacarta in the 1840's.)

John married Catherine Hasty in 1847.  Their known children were Owen, Catherine, Patrick, John, Margaret, Thomas, Peter, James and Luke.

Patrick Jr married Margaret Grogan in 1854.  Their known children were Ellen, Owen, Catherine, Anne, Bridget, Michael, Patrick and Austin James.

There is a Michael Tully who we think was a younger brother of John and Patrick Jr.  He was only 17 when he got married in 1855.  His sons were named Patrick, James, Michael, Thomas, Bartley and Martin.

The name Owen has not shown up anywhere else with the Tully descendants in these townlands, up to and including the 1901/1911 censuses.

As distinquished as the name Bartley is, it hasn't much helped me to find the relatinships.  I found a Patrick Tully in these townlands who had "Barthow" as his father on his marriage record of 1885.  I suspect that Barthow was a son of the 1st Bartley.  This Patrick Tully's sons were Bartley,  Richard, Patrick and Michael.  (Unfortunately, I haven't been able to sort out who Bartley and Barthow are, who they were married to, or the names of their children.)

I will continue searching for an Owen Tully ancestor although it seems that I need to also consider Eugene or Eoghan.  Since John Tully named his 1st son Owen and his 4th son John, it seems less likely to me that Owen, in this family, was another way of saying John.  With what you've told me though, I'm not sure now! 

An added question I have is how old a person would need to be to have his name put on the Griffiths Valuation.  Would he need to be 21 or could a younger man (such as 18 or 20 years old) be put on there.  I'm assuming that would make the younger man also responsible for the taxes to the landlord.  (Michael Tully, for example, was not listed on Griffiths.  He would have been 20 years old and already married in 1858. They lived in one of the 3 townlands mentioned but maybe sharing a house with others.)

If you have any other insights about the relationships between these men or the names, I would be very happy to hear from you again!

Thank you again,

Cindy

 

 

CMST

There’s no minimum age to be in Griffiths. However being listed in Griffiths meant you were head of the household. So in general, you wouldn’t get a 21 year old listed if his father and mother were still alive. After the father’s death, the mother was normally listed as head of household. (Most women in Griffiths are widows). Men and women stayed at home till they married.  The average age for men to marry was perhaps 23. So that’s another reason why young men don’t often appear in Griffiths. Relatives lodged with each other so some families aren’t shown for that reason. People working as servants aren't listed. And houses of very low value, eg hovels weren’t listed either as they weren’t worth the bother of taxing. (A hovel was made of turf (peat) and usually only lasted about 6 or 7 years before it fell down. Then you built another one). Farmers were expected to pay their rent in cash but labourers often paid their rent in kind, ie an agreed number of days work a year on the farm, after which they were free to take other employment, eg on other farms or on government shcemes such as road building.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hello Elwyn,

Thank you very much for your interesting and very helpful reply about Griffith's!  Since beginning this conversation, I have looked through my old research notes and I would like to ask your opinion about something else.

I had previously found 3 birth records in Annagh parish with the names Bartly Tully and Mary Mullowney as the parents.  These were 3 girls: Mary 1852, Anne 1856 and Catherine 1859.  There was a placename noted only on the first birth record:  "Carngard".  I have never been able to find this placename.  Since Bartly Tully is an unusual name, I was thinking that perhaps Carngard is a mis-spelling of Cornacartha (Corr na Céarta) where my Tully family lived.  If the "a" was not pronounced, or left off of "Céarta", the pronounciation of Carngard and Corr na Céarta could be quite similar, I believe.  I would like to have your opinion about this because if you agree, this family could be one of the missing links I'm looking for.

Many thanks in advance!

Cindy

CMST

Cindy,

There’s only the 1 Bartley in Griffiths in Annagh. That doesn’t mean there weren’t others but it says it wasn’t a very common name. Yes I think Cornacarta might be a variation of Carngard. I don’t live in Mayo, and if you are visiting the area, I would ask locally as people there may be more likely to be able to say yes or know.

Many townlands did have several names or variations on the way they were named. Griffiths tried to standardize them a bit but obviously it would have taken several generations for old versions to fall out of use.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hello Elwyn,

Thank you very much for your opinion about "Carngard" being Cornacarta.  I was thinking of other reasons why the name could be spelled wrong, one being a transcription error from the original document.  I will check with a local person I'm in contact with to ask her opinion about it.  Meantime, I think I'll start focusing more on the name Bartley Tully.  I did find one born in Levalyroe around 1840, but this would be too young to be the one who had a child in 1852.  (This particular Bartly was born to John Tully and Mary Gilfoyle.)

I was wondering if you could tell me the year when Griffiths was done in Annagh Parish.  That could help me with situating people.  I have heard that the year varies in different parts of the country.

Many thanks again for your help,

Cindy

CMST

Griffiths clerks started at the southernmost counties around 1848 and slowly worked north, finishing in Antrim and Londonderry around 1864. They did Annagh in 1856. You can find the date by clicking on the details box of anyone listed in a townland in the parish. You can also follow through from Griffiths, post 1856 to see how long someone stayed on a property and who succeeded them. The Valuation Revision books go up to the 1920s and are in the Valuation Office in Dublin. They are not on-line yet (save for Northern Ireland) but they may do a look up for you.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thank you very much for this information about Griffiths.  I have actually gotten some records from the Valuation Office.  I hope these records will eventually be on line.  I think I'm going to start a new post about a Nary family and a Quin family, both of whom are related to my own family, but for whom I haven't been able to find much information.  Many thanks again for your help.

Cindy

CMST

Bartley was a nickname for Bartholomew---or at least it was in my family.

 

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