Spain and Hinchy (Henchy) family

 

 

Hello:

Thank you for your post to the Ireland Reaching Out message board and welcome!  Be sure to check back with the message board periodically to see if others have either replied to your post or are researching the same families.  Thank you for your interest in Ireland Reaching out.  Kind regards, Jane

 

 

 

 

Aspain28

rhinchy here - thanks for the basic info to start with. 

I have the following from headstones in the graveyards in kilfinane

mister hinchy had the following children:
2. i. WILLIAM2 HINCHY was born in 1806. He died on 19 Jan 1878. He married ANNE
MATILDA? CORBETT?. She was born in 1813. She died on 13 May 1877 in Kilmallock,
Limerick, Ireland.
ii. MATTHEW HINCHY was born in 1807. He died on 26 Oct 1889 in Kilmallock, Limerick,
Ireland. He married Catherine (Kate) Allen in 1838. She was born in 1806. She died
in Oct 1884 in Kilmallock, Limerick, Ireland.
iii. MAURICE HINCHY was born in 1810. He died on 17 Dec 1878 in Kilmallock, Limerick,
Ireland. 

You suggest in the wider context of your message that my "mister hinchy" is your Matthew Hinchy sho married Jane Howell and had a daughter elizabeth who married you Abraham Spain. I would be interested in knowing/accessing your source or obtaining the copies of that source info. As I say I simply visited the graveyards in Kilfinane.

I also have a follow through on descendents of William and Matthew. I don't think Maurice married or at least I have no follow through on that. The children of these persons have listed William or Matthew as father on birth info in the 1840/1860 periiods. the recurrence of Janes , williams, matthews, maurices, elizabeths in names is striking through generations! - perhaps they were just the in vogue names of the era.

rgds

rhinchy

rhinchy,

Thanks for your reply and added info.  I had been in contact with other Spain descedants in the U.S. and they shared some family records which stated that Elizabeth's parents were Matthew Hinchy and Jane Howell.  I also found a record from the Diocese of Emly that had a marriage license listed for Mathias Hinchy (Latin form of Matthew) and Jane Howell in 1794.  I have not found the Church in the Diocese where they were married.

I also found the names of Elizabeth's brothers and sisters listed in those same family records.

Regards,

Aspain28

 

Thanks,

I had feared that perhaps after a few years you would no long follow the thread. I guess that you are in the US, whilst I am in Ireland. My particular interest is the Hinchy line (as you might expect).

When you say family records, do you mean a sort of family tree handed down over the years or actual documents. I had got the baptismal details for some of the descendants of William (brother of your Elizabeth) on a clunky early LDS website (International Genealogical Index). Records in Ireland are a bit hit and miss especially before 1870. The LDS did a trawl of data from churches around Ireland and the official births, marrages and deaths in the late 1950s. This has populated their databases. Lately Ancestry.com has most of that data. Please do refer to the Irish Census data from 1901 and 1911 which was digitised in 1911 (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/) – also accessible through ancestry I believe. That website would be useful wrt any ancestors who might have lived in Ireland in 1901 and 1911. In a few years’ time (circa 2026/7) the details from the 1926 census will likely be available.

 

I am generally sceptical and cautious about jumping to conclusions that any set of persons are part of the relevant family ancestors/descendants. It is too easy for multiple families to “claim” a person as their “relation” and within their family tree, but not all can be correct unless they are actually all part of the one tree. Thus I prefer to clearly understand the basis of any claim. Thus I strive to understand how you came to the conclusions on the relationship between your Elizabeth Hinchy (who married Mr Spain) and the persons I consider as part of one tree as per the below graves in Kilfinane.

I travelled to Kilfinane to have a look at the headstones there and came across the following:

https://historicgraves.com/kilfinnane-old/li-klfn-0105/grave

https://historicgraves.com/st-andrews-church-ireland/li-klci-0045/grave

I attach a number of files which contain extracts pulled from the available web material without any subscriptions some years ago.

This information is equally to be found on ancestry.com / familysearch.org website.

The connection between the Matthew side and the William side of the two headstones can be determined I believe from the census information where members from one side are recorded at the home of members of the other side on the census night. You can thus trace people across the two census years and the birth details available in the records.

Checks and purchases of some small details from UK census of 1901/1911 also help with connections where Hinchy appears as Henchy in records as various parties are visiting / staying with others on census night.

I don’t operate any information uploaded on the web, but I do have a means to provide PDF details of the forest as best I have collated it. I will try to provide a reduced generation list in order to avoid releasing confidential information on the living. Some basic details from your Spain side would be of interest in order to flesh out a further line to the forest of trees which start off from Mathew Hinchy and Jane Howell (if I take those as the valid names of the ancestors who were nameless in my notes before now)

Reflecting on your original posting, I suspect that the “Catherine (Kate)” Hinchy which you claim as a sister to your Elizabeth might in fact be the wife of Matthew (per headstone), but welcome any evidence which you can put forward. I believe that  Jane Hinchy as a sister to your Elizabeth is very plausible if in fact Jane Howell is the root mother for the persons in the headstones. You will I hope understand my style of questioning and interrogation of the facts in order to reach a high level of confidence in my conclusions and entries into my database.

I will also mention that if you are working on the basis of Church of Ireland Hinchy’s then you are on the correct line, there are many, many more Roman Catholic Hinchy’s in the census and general records. However I cannot determine how this particular set of Hinchy’s are CoI whereas “all” others in Limerick are RC. I wonder whether some have come from “Hinchey”’s appearing in the ulster counties. There are other plausible answers relating to 1840 affairs, but if the records for Matthew Hi and Jane Ho marriage in early 1800s is of a CoI wedding, then those fall!

 

rhinchy

PS is there a Palatine connection to your Abraham Spain?

For those technically incline, the text above was prep'd in word and copy pasted across - hence it has made visible some http or other formating codes!! And sorry for the length.

 

rhinchy,

When I said records I meant handwritten genealogical information compiled by Matthew Spain, Elizabeth Henchy’s son (or possibly written by his wife) dated 1902.  This was five years before Matthew Spain died.  It is written there that Jane Howell is the mother of Elizabeth Henchy.  I deduced that Matthew Hinchy was her father after I found the record of the marriage license in 1794 for Mathias Hinchy and Jane Howell in the Diocese of Cashel and Emly.    

I also found this written among the genealogical information giving the occurrence as June 1874.  “Mary Jane McCleary had a cousin Andrew Henchy living with her Mother and Father.  He has just returned from a three weeks holiday in Kilfinane Ireland and he said that Uncle William, Maurice, Old Uncle Matt, Aunt Kate and Aunt Jane were in good health.  They are the brothers and sisters of Eliza Henchy who married Abraham Spain of Ireland.  Andrew Henchy was Clerk in a Wholesale Warehouse in London, England.”   

- Mary Jane McCleary is a daughter of James McCleary and Mary Spain (daughter of Abraham Spain and Eliza Henchy) who had married in Kilfinane and moved to London -

I have not found any Palatine connection for Abraham Spain and I am doubtful about finding one.  Abraham Spain was a member of the Irish Constabulary in County Limerick, according to the Family hisstory his parents were killed in 1798 during the Rebellion and he was left an orphan.  In all records I have found concerning Abraham he was listed as CoI.  I think the family may have been from County Tipperary (Neangh), but that is only a guess based on some tenuous information.

I have not done much research on the Hinchy family in Ireland as I have been focusing mainly on finding the origins of Abraham Spain’s family there.

Are your Hinchy’s those from Kilfinane ?

Regards,

Aspain28

 

Below is from Family Search IGI Records:

Mathias Hinchy

International Genealogical Index (IGI)

Birth about 1769 
Diocese of Cashel and Emly, Munster, Ireland 

Marriage 1794 
Diocese of Cashel and Emly, Munster, Ireland 

SpousesJane Howell

Aspain28,

Sorry for the skeptical approach. too often people in these cases are keen to find a connection and relative. The part that seems odd to me is that from a marriage in 1794 it is about 10 years before there are any children to be found. That strikes me as odd if the two persons were living together as man and wife. In those days the pharma industry was not as developed and the "rubber" might not have been commonplace!!!

with respect to the CoI faith aspect, that was a key way to join the dots with the info from the Irish Census 1901/1911, as there were much fewer Hinchy entries CoI. (Irish 1901/11 Census entries in Birr, Dublin, Bruff at least) 

I will take it as credible that your Elizabeth Henchy is a sister to the William, Matthew and Maurice of the Kilfinance graveyard headstones. I am descendant from the William in this case. As best I can make out Matthew had no children. And I had not come across a wife for Maurice or any children with him listed as father in the plausible window of time.

Whilst your document references an"Uncle William, Maurice, Old Uncle Matt, Aunt Kate and Aunt Jane were in good health" I would suggest euqally possible that the Kate is Matthew's wife. Whilst the records of BMD in ireland improved from 1870, the challenge now will be to try to determine credible death details for Jane referenced in the document. Had she married? Do you have any information on that. This difficulty of tracking a person makes confirming their mere existence challenging. Perhaps Jane was a wife of Maurice, I don't thing I had checked for deaths under surname Henchy. Tracking Jane in death entries would be of interest. I am aware that one of WIlliam's children appears as Henchy in documentation and his descendants into the 1900s were recorded thus (cf HENRY VICTOR TRISTRAM HENCHY was born on 14 Jun 1905 in Dublin, Ireland. He
died on 17 Apr 1968 in Warrenpoint, Down, Ireland.). However that line of males terminated. An uncle of HVT Henchy, LEOPOLD EUSTACE HENCHY (who was born on 03 Nov 1888 in Dublin, Dublin, Ireland and
died on 18 Mar 1958 in Dublin, Dublin, Ireland.) was present at the funeral of the William Hinchy (born 06 Mar 1846 in Kilfinnane, Limerick, Ireland) in Nov 1923 (death/headstone in Mt Jerome cemetery Dublin) which headstone entry is  recorded in one of the attachments posted. A press clipping mentions the presence of Leopold Henchy at the funeral. I will try to locate it.

I have no issue with you having concentrated on the Spain side of your family. That was probably easier to follow. I mention Palatine connection, because there is a Palatine strong point in the area of Limerick between/around Adare, Rathkeale and Newcastle West. Also some Palatines (having originally come from Germany) went on to Ontario in Canada, which some of your family tree members have done. https://www.irishpalatines.org/visit.html

The Andrew Henchy you reference is possibly the Andrew whose baptism (1951) is referenced in one of the attachments. Have you at any stage checked UK census data from the period 1870-1890. These census data were freely available a few years ago. I will put it in my to do list! However I believe that Andrew had returned to Ireland by 1901 based on the Irish census of that year (living in Bruff, Co.Limerick). One of Andrew's grandchildren (Violet Waugh (neé Hinchy)) died in August 2017.

I will do what I can to answer questions on the Hinchy side. William (1806-1878) had children;
Matthew, Maurice, Anne, William, Jane, Andrew, Elizabeth and Henry. I have less certainty about matters concerning Anne and Henry. Anne and Henry did not have any children as best I can determine. Anne never married to my assessment. Jane married a Mr Perrin and they lived in London in the period 1890-1911 according to census records and in 1910 one of her brother William's children was staying with her (per census) and possibly in 1890 time frame one of Maurice's children was staying with her (if I recall my details without checking the relevant document at present).  It was quite common for young folk to work for a few years in London (staying with an Aunt/Uncle) and then returning to Ireland. I have been in contact with descendants of Matthew, Maurice and Andrew. Though only the Hinchy (male) line exists at present for the Matthew and William offspring of William (1806).

 

Besides the daughter (Mary) of Eliza H and Abraham Spain, were there any other children of Eliza H and Abraham Spain?

Anyhow, enough for now it has gone 2300 local Irish time.

 

rhinchy

 

 

 

rhinchy,

A little skepticism is useful in genealogical research especially when paper records are difficult to find.  Besides Mary (1823-1893), the other children of Abraham Spain and Elizabeth Henchy are Joseph (1822(?)-1882), William Henry (1827(?)-1869), Jane (1828-1901), Matthew (1832-1907), Eliza (1835(?)-1836(?)), Richard Charles Bastival (1838-1907) and Abraham James born in Canada (1843-1928).  Joseph did not have any children that survived him. Mary had at least six children, Wlliam Henry had four children, Jane (from whom I am descended) had seven children, Matthew had eleven children, Richard C B had at least four children and Abraham James had at least four children.  

I did not find Andrew Hinchy living with the McCleary's in either the 1871 or 1881 Census.

The 'Aunt Kate' being the wife of Matthew is a possibility.  I have found a possibility for 'Aunt Jane', a John Shannon married a Jane Henchy (Hinchy) in Kilfinane on 21 January 1831, and on 25 October 1840 there is a Jane Shannon Henchy widow marrying a Thomas Coe.  A death record for Jane Coe states her death occured 27 Nov 1884 in Kilfinane and the informant was a nephew H. Hinchy,  And, there is a matching death registered in Kilmallock for a Jane Coe born 1802 in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1884.

I also found two interesting marriages in Kilfinane. One on 23 August 1807 a Lucy Henchy and Hugh Howell and the other on 28 February 1816 a Mary Henchy (Hinchy) and Edward Cranwell.  There could be other Hinchy children born to Matthew and Jane Howell that we have not yet found which could explain the gap from 1794-1804 with Jane a possibility in 1802 and maybe Mary earlier.

A question, Kilfinane is in the Diocese of Limerick but do you know the boundaries of the Diocese of Cashel and Emly ?

Regards,

Once again thanks for the further info.

One the diocesan question, I don't actually know, but if you simply google the Dioces of EMly yuo wil probably get som link to a sitethat might provide a map ro other info. Take the RC and CoI diocese may be slightly different.

I'm a bit unclear as to how you are confidently saying that persons were married in Coi chruches, is. it the source of the marriage info that specifically informs that it is CoI. Though to be fair, many RC records may no longer exist or have not be digitised/digitally published. 

As a further thought info might be found in Methodist Church records. I don't know to what degree a clear delineation would have been made across a family on preference to attend one or the other and marriage might change allegance! 

 

Now to put my skeptics hat on again.....Looking at your earlier posting, You mention Elizabeth born @1805 marrying in 1820. That seems a bit young, but your latest post suggest birth arround 1802 which is "less alarming".  Other young marriage cases appear with her daughter Mary who was born @1825 and married in 1840. And daughter Jane Spain (your ancestor) born@1828 and married 1844!

I had a brief look at the "freely available" census infor for the 1871 period in the UK and also see no sign of Andrew, but I was not seeing all electoral areas. By the way where abouts were the McClearys located arround that time?

Now to the material sources you quote. Do these exist in the form of "paper letters" or merely word of mouth. If hand written papers, perhaps you could scan or photograph them and upload them to this site (attach to a posting). The problem with word of mouth is that Chinese Whisper effects can mess the info up unless somebody writes it down relatively quickly/soon in the process.

I had probably seen references to the Jane Coe death informed of my H Hinchy - but had little to connect with my research. 

I did most of my research 8-10 years ago when access to the various LDS IGI / familysearch records was more open and less tracked. In recent years you have to have a log on account in order to use the resource. I can go to a local library which maintains subscriptions to one or too genealogical resources and thus allow direct access to the resource without the library user having to use their own login account.  I tend not to keep too high a profile in the online worlld. When I get to the library I will review the material further and see how I can place things together according to what you suggest. But the more pointers you can give me to the early 1800s and any links (deaths/marriages) to matters in late 1800s the better. records in Ireland make dramatic improvements in the period after 1870 and on up to 1940 by which time the info is quite good. 

as regards Lucy and Mary marriages. I had come across Mary / Cranwell  in my earlier trawls, but had not pursued as it is so hard to make a clear connection. And I do accept that there may be other children between 1784 and 1802/1806 timeframes. 

As regards how I fit in, as mentioned , of the 3 guys, William, Matthew and Maurice on the headstones, only Williiam had any children as best I can make out. Now that William had a number of children, among which William, Matthew and Maurice are the 3 lines from this "william junior" which currently have many living descendants. Andrew has few living descendants. And an Elizabeth (Lizzie) has no remaining descendants to my knowledge. In good form the "Williiam 3" obliged with a number of children, among them another William! with other male children having Maurice and Matthew as second names. It is from that line that I am derived! The Maurice  line has the greater propensity to be "HENCHY". The Matthew line has a Matthew and a William. Other names get mixed in, influenced by the respective spouses no doubt. I have been in touch with persons from both the Matthew and Maurice lines. One person from the Maurice line has done a DNA text with My Heritage. So if somebody from your Spain grouping has also done DNA with my heritage , there might be some trigger of a connect noted. but back many generations this will be rather weak and perhaps unreliable. DNA is fine for IDing a parent from a more distant relative, but fails when many generations depth is needed before the direct connection. 

There are other Henchy's floating in Ireland in the 1900s which I cannot connect to Hinchy line I have studied. However as it happens on one of my other "family tree lines" one of those Henchy's married in! Further- on another line, a relative has a friend whose brother married a Hinchy from the "Matthew" line. So various genealogical or simply life connections may wrap around. 

Once again, if you have a scan or other "paper" form of the info you have quoted, that would be interesting. You mention that Andrew Henchy was residing with MCCleary in the UK, does that info exist as a letter with an address? IE do you know where in the UK they were. Have you checked that family out in the UK census?  

 

Also check out recently openned digital access www.virtualtreasury.ie which may also have info from records thought previously destroyed in 1922. Some info has been digitised of the conserved damaged (burnt) records and other info sources from other countries. 

rhinchy

Thank you for the clarification on your direct lineage and where I might find digital access to records previously destroyed in 1922. I have been receiving help from a friend more experienced in Irish Records than I am and they have a subscription to both Find My Past and Roots Ireland which I do not have access to.  That is where the information on the Hugh Howell - Lucy Henchy and Edward Cranwell - Mary Henchy COI marriages came from as well as the Jane Henchy - John Shannon and Jane Shannon Henchy (widow) - Thomas Coe marriage information.  I am unable to link to or access those records myself.  I think that there is a Tombstone in the Kilfinane Cemetery for Lucenda Howell and her husband Hugh Howell.

My direct ancestor Jane Spain was married at a young age, her baptism occurred in April 1828 and she was married in June 1844 at 16 years old.   Also, her sister Mary was baptized in September 1823 and was married in June 1840 at 17 years old.  I do not have a baptism date for their mother Eliza and based on the U. S. Census information she would have been born in 1804/1805 but that is not as reliable as a baptism date and she married in October of 1820.

The only information I have on where the McCleary’s were living in 1871 is from the Census. Kentish Town, St. Pancras, London, Middlesex, England.

Thanks again for your assistance