Hello Roger and Tim, I really appreciate your response and assistance. I needed some time to evaluate what you said and do some more research before I could reply. This continues to be a difficult search. I have ordered the DNA kit and will probably get it next week. I have been searching for the past 2 years using Ancestry, findmypast and Irishroots. I have also done research at the Cemetery where they are buried, at the Lawrence, MA city hall and at the Lawrence library looking up old obituaries. I’ve ordered all the death records of people I thought were their cousins or relations but so far I cannot definitely determine where Michael Harty or Ellen O’Brien were born or who their relatives are. I’m promising my family a trip to Ireland once I figure this out. It has been a lot more difficult than I thought but I haven’t given up yet.
Roger, you are right that my G GM Ellen O’Brien Harty is probably not the Ellen Obrien b.1872 in Waterford because that would make her 16 when she was married in 1888. As you said she was of full age. I’m assuming you saw the “full age” on the written baptismal record because I don’t see it on roots Ireland searches but might have missed it. It would make sense that she would be older that 16 anyway. I was hoping the Waterford record would be her because that would match up with some of my other theories and it also provided the right names of the parents Edward O’Brien and Ellen Carroll. Since I am desperate to make progress I have been working on many different theories. She (Ellen O’Brien” died in 1898 in a kitchen fire when she tried to add kerosene to hasten the fire. Her 6 year old son (Michael Harty b1892 in Limerick) was taken in by the John W. Carroll family in Lawrence, Mass. I don’t know why Michael would not have kept his own children but that is what happened. One assumption was the Carroll family must be related to the Harty or O’Brien family but I have not been able to approve that. They might have just been good friends after all. John W. Carroll (born in New Jersey1853 d.1920 was also the informant for info on my GGF Michael Harty’s death certificate in 1910. And there 2nd son William Harty b. 1898 (my grandfather) was adopted by the Mahoney family in Lawrence, Mass. and I also don’t see any family connection to them.
So now you know some of the back story. Another theory I have been working on is to evaluate/model the other Harty families in Lawrence, Mass at the same time to see if I can prove they were my GGF cousins. I ruled out them being siblings. What is strange is the family I think he is related to has the same parents William Harty b.1790 and Margaret O’Connell b.1800. On the death certificate of Michael Harty b.1852 d.1910 it list his parents as William Harty and Margaret but does not show the maiden name. It would be easy to just say he was their brother but that family already has a brother named Michael Harty b1835. And if you look at the age of the mother born in 1800 she would be too old to have Michael born in 1852 or even if he was born in 1848. She did have a son born in 1844 Edward Harty and William Harty b.1845. I have a copy of a will that list all of those family members including the mother. So that family is pretty well documented. I still think that my Michael Harty is related to them or there was some errors on the death certificates. For example my GGM Ellen Harty died in the fire in 1898 on her death certificate her address was listed as the same as Edward Harty b.1882 which was 302 Elm st. But she didn’t live at that address. She lived with Michael on Oak st. I am not sure how an error like that could come up. I mean her husband Michael would have been there to give them the info. But maybe not. And why would someone list another person’s address as their address on the death ?
Tim, thank you for the written copy of the marriage certificate and the other research you did. I have reviewed what you wrote. I would rule out Edmond O’Brien and Hanora Brassil from being related since we know that the mother was Ellen not Hanora and also they don’t have a daughter named Ellen born around 1865-1870. I have created trees in Ancestry for the O’Brien/Brassil family and the Patrick Condon and Mary O’Brien and then Thomas Downey and Kate O’Brien families . But I could not find any downstream connections to the Harty family or Lawrence, Mass.
There is also the mystery of Margaret O’Connell Harty. As I mentioned they considered her born around 1800. I still don’t know if this one is my GGFs mother but I have been researching it to see if I could prove or disprove it. I see her listed in 3 different census living with her children. In 1870 the census shows her living with Edward Harty b1844, in 1880 the census shows her living with Michael Harty b1835, and the England/London 1861 census shows her living with her daughter Margaret Harty Baker 1836 in England with her Husband michael Baker 1835. Given that I see her in 3 Census I assumed I could find her death certificate in Massachusetts and that would provide additional info. But her death is not listed in the town of Lawrence or state of Mass. So I continue to search for that. It is hard to believe she would live much longer than 1880 or move out of the area so once again I am at a dead end.
Besides the DNA test I don’t know what my next step is. My current assumption was to go back to the beginning with the information I am certain about which is why I included the Marriage record of Michael and Ellen in 1888 and the Birth record of their son Michael in 1982.
One theory I have that might also explain why I can’t find much info on Michael is there is a English/London connection. I have a theory that his father William Harty b.1790 was in the English Army and that Michael probably spent time in England and maybe that is where he first wife was or where he was born. Michael arrived in the US in 1892 so he was somewhat of a late comer compared to the other Harty’s in Lawrence who arrived in 1850-1870. But the question also remains what did Michael do from 1850 to 1888 ? Unfortunately I have been unable to establish that. The other family I have been evaluating in Lawrence (in addition to the Edward harty family) had 3 brothers come born in England and they seem to be cousins. If you don’t know already Lawrence, Massachusetts was at the center of the American Industrial Revolution all these people worked in the cotton and wool mills.
Let me throw out one last thing, my father grew up playing the Irish card game that we call 45s here. I think you call it 25s. Is that played in your area ? it is a bidding game where the top 3 highest cards are the 5, jack and Ace of Hearts. We still play it here in Mass.
Thanks again for your time in providing clues to this mystery and for reading my response. If you have any advice I am open to it.
Shawn Harty, Andover, Massachusetts, USA
