John Hayes born 1829 Cappamore Limerick

Delchilds,

There is an 1851 Griffith's Valuation record for an Edmund Hayes in Cappamore, Doon, Limerick as a tenant. Given that his first born son was named Edward (synonymous with Edmund), I'd say he followed the Irish naming pattern naming the eldest son after his father. The baptism records for the RC parish of Doon began in 1824, but I did not find one for John on the paid site Roots Ireland.

Regards,

Delchilds,

Found on Ancestry. His nephews in Moreton are noted on this record. It also suggests his mother was living in Tipperary.

Regards- Mary

Hi Carolyn and Mary

Thanks for your replies. I should have mentioned that the first mentioned son Edward on the birth record is the child of Margaret's previous marriage, so no biological relation to John Hayes. Yes this is the only record we have found so far which could be our John. The reference to his mother Mary living in Tipperary is in keeping with family anecdotes that they were from Tipperary. So maybe we need to look for records for James pre 1850 or a baptism for John with parents of James and Mary?

Thanks again

Del

Del,

Do you have records connecting John to Cappamore? Per RootsIreland, there was a John Hayes baptized at St. John's, Limerick in 1830, parents James Hayes and Mary Moynahan. A James Hayes died in 1853 age 42 at St. John's. These aren't necessarily connected to your John. As Carolyn mentioned above there are no birth records for John connecting him to Cappamore.

Regards- Mary

Del,

I took a look at the 1901 census for Cappamore, Limerick; and I saw the same names repeated.. I know these folks are a generation or two after your John Hayes (1929), but using the same naming tradition, you will note Margarets, Johns, and Williams. One family - William & Mary Hayes - had Edmond, Margaret, John and Mary. Mary's birthplace is given as Tipperary just like the mother of your John Hayes in the immigration record. The RC parish of Doon lies on the border with Tipperary. I saw your Ancestry tree showing John's children with Margaret Sullivan were Margaret, John and Mary Anne - do you think this is a coincidence? I found it interesting that John Hayes, at 21 years old, was coming to see or be with his two nephews William and John...were they there without their parents? I don't think they would be mentioned if they were minors, so John must have had a much older brother in order to have two sons older than John or maybe around his age. Do you know any information about the nephews?

On another note, have you seen the Ancestry family tree, I think Eustace tree, that gives a very detailed history about Margaret Sullivan? Odd that it mentions her first husband also named Sullivan and the man Cosgrove that she had children with, but there is no mention of your Hayes family. Take a look at it..it is two pages long in her gallery.

Anyhow, your family anecdotes that some family come from Tipperary is probably true....with a little bit of Limerick thrown in!

Regards,

Mary,

The only record connecting him to Cappamore is on the birth record of his 3rd child Mary Ann which I originally attached. As you say it may not be Cappamore. I did an Ancestry search for John Hayes baptism in 1829-30 in Limerick and came up with 3 records and 3 different churches, St Marys, St Michaels and St Johns. I think St Johns is the RC church as the others are Church of Ireland, if I'm correct? The St Johns record has James and Mary as parents, the same as on the 1850 arrival record to Australia. I had a look at the original and can't really decipher Mary's maiden name. Ancestry has it as Minahan, you have Moynahan (a recognised surname, maybe more so than Minahan) but when I look at the original I see more something like Harrigan! I have attached the original from Ancestry.

Regards

Del

Hi Carolyn

Yes the repetition in the names may well be more than a coincidence. Edward though would have been named after his father Edward. Margaret's 1st husband was Edward Sullivan, the same surname as Margaret's. Like you I have wondered about the ages of the nephews, thinking that John must have had an older brother. It was not unusual for siblings (usually brothers) to emigrate together on assisted emigration programs to Australia as agricultural labourers, though I have not been able to find any record of them arriving, It would have had to have been around the same time as John or a year or so earlier at most. I did find a Hayes family, parents Daniel and Ann, who emigrated in 1841, with 4 children including 2 sons William aged 2 and John aged 11, but investigation seems to have them staying in New South Wales, rather than going up to Queensland. Moreton Bay - the initial name given to Brisbane is several hundred kilometres from Sydney and New South Wales hinterland which is where they settled. I tried to attach this file but have not been able to.

Yes I have been in touch with the Eustace tree owner and am waiting on more information from him. Margaret Sullivan has a fascinating story. She is mentioned in Kay Caball's The Kerry Girls as being part of the Earl Grey Irish Orphan Girl Scheme, arriving in Australia in 1850 and marrying Edward Sullivan very soon after. As you say she goes on to partner with a James Cosgrove and has several children to him but there is a gap of 6-7 years in between which was never accounted for. My own family history research centred around trying to find information about Margaret and John Hayes, without much success, over a 20+ year period. In the past several months DNA matching has uncovered this much bigger story of Margaret having 12 children to 3 different fathers which I was never aware of. Edward Sullivan Jnr and the Cosgrove children stayed with Margaret in New South Wales, whereas John Hayes and his 3 children went back to Queensland and it seemed from then on (approx 1858), there was no more contact with their mother or half siblings. It seems a far fetched story, but DNA matches that my 2 siblings and I plus 2 other cousins have with descendants of up to 7 of Margaret's 12 children are showing otherwise.

While there seems to be continuing information emerging about Margaret's children to Edward Sullivan and James Cosgrove, John Hayes and his family remain a mystery, hence my renewed interest in trying to find John's Irish roots.

Regards

Del

Del,

A few final thoughts to add because you, of course, are more knowledgable about your own family than I. I also saw that couple Daniel and Ann who remained in NSW. I don't think that is unusual for that to be the case, if they are related to John Hayes. In my own family's immigration from Ireland to the US, my paternal great grandmother who came from Mayo ended up in Montana, her sister in New York, and her brother and mother in Connecticut. Why? I have no idea.

I agree with you that in John's birth record, his mother looks like Harrigan...compare it to the one two above him of a Catherine "Hourigan" as the mother...they look similar.

Maybe my naming tradition goes out the window if John's father was indeed James because that is not a name seen in that 1901 census or his own children. All those named Hayes could be a different family entirely....the eldest is an Ellen Hayes (80) living with her daughter Margaret, husband and twin sons William and Michael.

Finally, I just now realized that there is also a RC parish called Cappamore, so when he stated he was from there, it could very well be the parish, and not the townland Cappamore which is in the parish of Doon. Cappamore parishes baptisms began in 1842. Also, as you probably know, folks back then didn't usually know their birth year as they didn't mark birthdays as we do today. And, when emigrating , they often made themselves younger or older for a variety of reasons. So, he could have been born before 1829.

Good Luck!

Del,

I just wanted to mention the John Hayes I was referencing was born June 15, 1830 to James Hayes. The record is on the next page from the one you identified. It doesn't impact much if you know for sure that your John came from Cappamore.

I don't think I can add anymore to your research.

Good wishes- Mary

Dear Carolyn and Mary

Thank you so much for your further insights which I will ponder on. Carolyn, your point about the 2 Cappamores could be relevant. I am not at well well versed in the parish, county, townland distinctions. I go back to the spelling on the 1857 birth record - it was Capermore, so obviously the person registering the birth was hearing what was spoken, rather than knowing the place itself, and wrote it down as he heard it. I expect this would be quite normal on the other side of the world. For some reason I am hanging onto this name as it is the only indication we have, given the dearth of official records we have on John, of where in Limerick he was from.

Thanks again for your help

Del