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Mary O'Brien & Thomas Gilman

Kilkenny

I am looking for the marriage of my paternal great great grandparents, Mary O'Brien and Thomas Gilman. Both my Dad and I have searched long and hard to try to find a record of their marriage, but to date with no success. As I see it there could be three possibilities.

  • They married in England but after many years of searching have been unable to locate any sort of record.
  • They never married, however they lived as a family until Thomas died in 1928
  • They married in Ireland

Mary was born about 1869 in Limerick according to the 1911 UK Census. Family tradition has it that Mary plus a sister travelled to England in a cattle boat. Again the 1911 census shows Mary and Thomas being married 24 years so they probably married in 1887. This marriage date matches with other information we have. The 1901 Census shows Thomas single and lodging in Hyde, Cheshire. The birth of whom I assume to be their first child, Joseph William Gilman, is recorded as being born in Derby, England, 10 March 1889.

I have found a record on Ancestry of the marriage of a Thomas Gilman to either a Maria O'brien or an Alice Bradley registered in Kilkenny in 1887 quarter one. My Dad remembered some talk of Kilkenny so this perhaps would fit.

I have written to the current registrar for information, but they say a search without knowing exactly where this marriage took place would be very difficult. Can anyone suggest a way forward, please?

LynneandJohn

12 replies

why not try a research cert for that 1887 Thomas Gilman marriage to see who he married ?

There doesn't seem to be any Thomas Gilman, of near the correct age on the 1901 census, although he might be listed under some unusual spelling variaton, and just four deaths for that name between 1887 and 1901, all in Co. Cork - so seems possible that this married Thomas Gilman left Ireland

 

shanew147IrelandXO Volunteer

Thankyou for your reply.  I am new to family history in Ireland so what is a research cert please?  How do I do it?

If this was them, they definitely left Ireland becasue they were back in Derby by March 1889.

Thanks again

LynneandJohn

Genealogy certs from the GRO are referred to Research Certs, and cost €4 and so cost much less than official certs required for legal purposes e.g. passports etc. To order these certs - download the order form from this link (it's an MSWord document), print out a copy.

Enter your details in section 1, and your credit card details in section 3. Put the index references for the record you wish to order (name, reg. district, record type , year/quarter, page & volume) in section 2 - ignore the irrelevant sections on the form such as exact date or birth etc, the forms are more geared to the modern official certs for legal purposes.

In section 3 tick the 'photocopy' option to select the cheaper research certs.

Post (or fax) the completed form to the GRO, the head office address is at the top of the form.

The GRO is overseen by the Dept.of Social Protection or Welfare which is why the website has the welfare.ie address. Certs are normally delivered by post, but you can opt for delivery by email by ticking the option in section 1 and including an email address.

shanew147IrelandXO Volunteer

p.s. forgot to mention, the surname Gilman is not common, so certainly worth checking this marriage, even if only to eliminate. One other point, you mentioned Mary O'Brien and the BMD Index refers to a Maria .. dont worry about this. Most of the details on a marriage record were filled in by the priest or registrar, and also Maria is Latin for Mary, which a Catholic priest could also have used ..

 

 

shanew147IrelandXO Volunteer

Thankyou again Shane W147.  Much appreciated.

LynneandJohn

Thanks Shane! Let us know if you make any further progress LynneandJohn

Best wishes
Clare Doyle
Genealogy Support

IrelandXO member

Well we think that we have found our Thomas and Mary (Maria) O'Brien Everything matches except the name - Mary/Maria, but father's name, occupation all match so what do you think?

Next question - can anyone help or guide?  Thomas Gilman was shown as a Private in the 45th Regiment on the day he got married in Kilkenny, address was 'The Barracks'.  We think that, living in Hyde, Cheshire, perhaps no work around, he joined up and then was sent to Ireland?  If this was the case then the 45th Regiment means, I think, the Sherwood Foresters which is highly significant.  Does anyone know more of the barracks, Kilkenny in 1887?  Mary (Maria) was shown as living on William Street, Kilkenny.

Thanks in anticipation.

 

LynneandJohn

Ireland was part of the UK back then and so Kilkenny would have been considered a 'home' posting for military purposes. Units were frequently moved around the different barracks for training and active duty etc. There were several barracks in Kilkenny city at the time, but suspect the Infantry barracks just to the north would have been where Thomas was based. This was later renamed James Stephens Barracks and there are some details at this link on the the AskAboutIreland website.

William St. is not far to the south of this barracks, and in the the city centre close to St. Mary CofI church.

What was given as name and occupation for Mary's father - also who where the witnesses to the marriage ?

shanew147IrelandXO Volunteer

Shane, you are a star.

I have found James Stephens barracks on the map, also William Street.  They married by banns in the church of St John.  Witnesses were Peter Miller (there is a middle name but not sure what the letter is), and Harriett Miller.  Mary's father was William, and occupation Farmer.  This all fits as his occupation was always shown as farmer or agricultural worker.

 

Thanks Shane.

 

LynneandJohn

I was hoping for O'Briens as witnesses !! Since it's such a common surname, Mary's family could be difficult to trace, especially if they moved around as Mary seems to have - i.e. born Limerick city or county, and married in Kilkenny city. Wonder if her father was military also, or if Thomas had previously been posted to somewhere in Co. Limerick ?

You can see the barracks c1890 on this OSI map   The various RC and CofI churches are just south of this.

shanew147IrelandXO Volunteer

Not sure, Shane.  Thanks for the map - my husband will love that.  Mary's father, William, is shown as a Gardener - but again the word is hard to read.  Does t hat sound plausible?

Have found out that the Sherwoods 45th 1st battalion were sent out to Kilkenny in 1887 so this is where they probably met. 

 

LynneandJohn

Have just confirmed, beyond doubt, that this is my Mary & Thomas.  Have found his service records!  Thanks so much!

LynneandJohn

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