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Looking for BIRNEY, BELL, LITTLE Ancestors of George BIRNEY / BERNIE & Sarah BELL (married 17 August 1869)

FermanaghMagheraculmoney (Fermanagh)

Hello from Australia.

I have found that Im a direct descendant of George Birney (born 1836) & Sarah Bell (born 1846), who married on 17 August 1869 in Irvinestown. George was from Slievebane, and Sarah from Drumbulkin at the time of marriage, according to their marriagerecord.

They had 15children, and what I have found out isthe first 8 were all born in Slievebane and baptised in the Church of England / Ireland in Kesh, Magheraculmoney, Fermanagh, Ireland:

William Birney

Jeremiah Birney

Margaret Birney

Adam Birney

Johnston Birney

Eliza Jane (Liz) Birney

Sarah Birney

John Robert Birney

- - -

The rest of their children, as far as I can ascertain, were all born enroute to orin Australia after the familys arrival, and the family had changed the surname from Birney to Bernie at some point enroute / after arrival:

Charles Bernie

Edward Burford Buff Bernie

George Bernie

Jemima Bernie

Virginia Bernie

Rebecca May Bernie

Walter Bell Noble Bernie

- - - -

According to George and Sarahs marriage certificate, Georges father isWilliam Birney. Sarahs father isWalter Bell. Ive also found out whotheir mothers arethrough death certificates here in Australia and their overseasbirth / baptism records.

Thus, Georges parents are William Birney and MargaretNoble. I have not yetfound any records or gravestones online for these parents of George or theirparents and relatives going further back.

Sarahs parents appear to be Walter Bell and Margaret Johnston(e). I am not sure where each were born - I suspect possibly Scotland, as I came across an image of a gravestone online where Margaret seems to be buried with her parents George Johnstone and Jane (Jean?) Pool and also her brother David Johnstone, and Walter Bell also seems to be buried with the Johnstones, at Hoddam Cemetery in Dumfrieshire. The dates of deaths and ageson the gravestone put Walter being born 1797ish, and Margaret being born 1812ish.

I have not been able to find out yet with certainty who Walter Bells parents are or where they were born / living.I suspect that they were potentially William Bell and Joan Little. I have no concrete evidence for this though.

Can anyone point me to some ancestors / websites / living descendants that may be able to assist me in my search, please?

Thanks.

Anne

annedernow@gmail.com

13 replies

Anne,

I had a look at Griffiths Valuation for Slievebane in 1862. There were 3 Birney properties there then. William had plot 7 which was a 13 acre farm; John was next door on plot 8 and had 10 acres. Then George & Thomas jointly held plot 17 which was 28 acres. You can follow through and see changes of tenants using the Valuation revision records on the PRONI site, right up to 1929.

Looking at the death records for that area, I see Thomas who died in Slievebane 22.5.1899 aged 60. George died there 4.11.1879 aged 76. He was a widower. Then there was a John who died in 1873 aged 73, and William in 1877 aged 80. Those 2 records aren’t on line free, so I can't look at them, but he might be from Slievebane. If you want to look at them you need to pay to view on the GRONI site.

3 Birney households in Slievebane in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Milltown/Slievebane/

and 3 in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Milltown/Slievebane/

Probate abstracts from the PRONI wills site:

Probate of the Will of Thomas Birney late of Slievebane County Fermanagh Farmer who died 22 May 1899 granted at Armagh to Archibald M'Farland Farmer. (This Thomas was married to Rebecca).

Birney John (senior) of Slievebane county Fermanagh farmer died 21 September 1922 Administration Londonderry 22 June to Adam Birney farmer. Effects £67.

As far as tracing the 2 families back, the main resource is the church records. If you have been through them and exhausted them, then there’s not a lot left. Possibly looking for gravestone. But most Irish research comes to a stop in the early 21800s due to a lack of records.

I don’t see a death for Walter Bell post 1864 which suggests he died before that. I presume you have checked the church burial records for his burial?

The Bell family are probably originally from Scotland (as are a huge percentage of the population of Fermanagh). It’s a common Border Reiver name and it’s well documented that significant numbers of reivers were relocated to Fermanagh in the first half of the 1600s. Some of the most common surnames in the county such as Armstrong and Elliott are all Border names. Here’s a little about the Bell name from a Reiver website:

http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Families/Surnames/bell.htm

There were 5 Bell families farming in Drumbulcan in 1835, according to the tithes, including a Watty which could be Walter:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-derryvullan.php

No sign of Walter in Drumbulcan in Griffiths in 1862, suggesting he had died or moved away before that year. There were 2 Bell farms there then: James (plot 1) & Johnston (plots 4 & 5).

1 Bell family in Drumbulcan in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Milltown/Dru…

I note you speculate that Sarah Bell’s parents were buried in Dumfries. I’d be a bit surprised if that were the case (unless they had moved to Scotland to live). If they were farming in Fermanagh and died there, I’d expect them to be buried there. There were no facilities for preserving bodies in the 1800s and it would have been most unusual to send a body over to Scotland for burial, a journey that would have taken quite a few days. The railway arrived in Irvinestown in 1866 which would have made things easier but before that sending a body from there to Dumfries would have been a journey of a week or more.   They did it for Admiral Nelson but they had to pickle his body in a barrel of brandy to preserve it. You had to be fairly special to get that treatment.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

My mothers family (Quinn) were Church Of Ireland and lived in that area near Kesh.

The church they went to was Ardess church or St.Mary's Ardess. They have lots of

stuff on line about the church and parishioners back quite sometime.

Might be worth checking out.

Cuinn

Thanks for checking the Griffiths Valuations etc info, Elwyn. I’ll look into all the hints you’ve unearthed. 

Cuinn, thanks for your tip for checking the records of St Mary’s Ardess. I’ll look into those too.

If anyone had any more pointers, they’ll be gratefully received.

Thanks again.

Anne

annedernow@gmail.com

 

Update for Walter Bell & Margaret Johnston(e) :
 

I went searching online for records pertaining to St Mary's in Ardess, Magheraculmoney, Fermanagh, Ireland & I believe I most likely have found the marriage record for Sarah Bell's parents, Walter Bell & Margaret Johnston(e) as a result of a suggestion posted here - thank you again for the assistance, it is greatly appreciated.

If it is indeed the Walter & Margaret I've been searching for, they were married on 16 May 1835. The marriage was performed / recorded by W. Stack via licence & witnesses are G. Armstrong & Edward Atthill.

Walter Bell - groom: Age not listed, status not listed, occupation not listed, parents' names & occupations not listed. Residence given as Irvinestown, Parish of Derryvoland (Derryvullan?).

Margaret Johnston - bride: Age not listed, status not listed, occupation not listed, parents' names & occupations not listed. Residence given as Irvinestown, Parish of Derryvoland (Derryvullan?).

Source:

Ireland Genealogy Project Archives

http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/

Transcriber: George Armstrong

Initial source: PRONI. MIC/1/67

I'm glad I've found this - now just to continue the search for each of their births & parents, & whether they travelled to Australia to be with Sarah, or travelled somewhere else, or did they stay in Ireland?

Interesting that the witnesses to Walter & Margaret's marriage do not contain the same surnames as theirs - were the witnesses friends or relatives not immediate, rather than immediate relatives? 

I'll get to the Griffiths valuation information suggested, in the new year & beyond.

Anne

annedernow@gmail.com

Anne,

Glad you have made progress.

Derryvoland will be an alternative spelling of Derryvullan.

Witnesses to a marriage could be anyone. They don’t have to be relatives of either of the couple. They don’t even have to be adults. The law in the 1830s was the same.

Derryvullan appears to have burial records from 1804 onwards. Not sure if they are on-line anywhere but there is a copy in PRONI in Belfast. You might want to search them for deaths of any Bells from Drumbulcan.

Regarding the deaths that you found in Dumfries-shire for Walter Bell and Margaret Johnston, I suspect that’s a different couple. (Bell & Johnston are fairly common Scottish names). Your Fermanagh family are likely to have originated in Scotland too but that was probably in the 1600s. There was a massive migration from Scotland then. Much of Co. Fermanagh was heavily populated by people from the Scottish Borders. The couple you have found in Hoddom graveyard are in the 1851 Scottish census at Knockhill Mains (a farm). Walter was a gardener. Both were born in Annan, Dumfries-shire and were living with their 11 year old daughter Jane, born in Cummertrees, Dumfries-shire c 1840. No other children. And you would have expected there to be a daughter Sarah born c 1846, if it were your family. The same family (Walter, Margaret & Jane, aged 1) are also in the 1841 census for Cummertrees, Dumfries-shire. So that pretty well places that family in Scotland from 1840 to 1851, at a time your family were in Fermanagh. Your Walter was a farmer (according to the 1869 marriage certificate) not a gardener.

 

 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks again for your help so far, everyone.

I have paid for and looked up Wiliam Birney's death information from the 1877 aged 80 information you gave me, Elwyn.

This would put William's birth year approx 1797 - handy to know as this will give an indicator of which years to try to track down a birth / baptism record.

According to the death record I obtained from GRONI, William Birney died on 25 April 1877, and he was 80 years old with an occupation of Farmer. He was indeed at Slievebane at the time of his death - so he might be the one I'm looking for. Apparently he was a widower by then - so if this is the correct William Birney, his wife Margaret (maiden surname Noble) would have passed away prior to April 1877. Still trying to track her down too.

General debility 6 months certified - I'm thinking his health went into a natural decline that took 6 months to complete - am I correct? I'm not sure what 'certified' means though.

The informant was apparently George Birney, present at death, Slievebane. Question: who is George Birney? Could it be his son George who married Sarah Bell and moved to Australia? Or another George Birney, if William might have had brothers or other relatives with the name - like the George you mentioned who died 2 years later aged 76?

Still need to check the other names and dates and ages you have supplied. Unfortunately I'm doing my family history in my spare time - though I'd love to do it on a full-time / professional basis!

annedernow@gmail.com

Anne,

The information on an Irish death certificate about cause of death gives the cause, the length of time the deceased had been suffering from that condition and whether or not the death was certified (ie confirmed) by a doctor, coroner or other qualified person. It wasn’t mandatory to get a doctor to certify a death until the 1890s. So many deaths prior to that were uncertified, being just reported by a relative, with the cause often saying things like “probably old age.” General debility means what you suspect, that he simply went into a decline.

You wonder who George Birney was who was the informant. Given that there were at least 2 other Birney households in the townland, I’d guess that he was from one of those. Here’s a George Birney from Slievebane who died in 1879, aged 76. That’s probably him. He may be the George Birney baptised 11.7.1802 to Adam & Margaret Birney of Slievebane.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/ardess-bap-02…

Regarding Margaret Birney’s death, there one registered in Irvinestown for 11th August 1875 aged 69 that would fit. You can’t view that on-line free yet but you can view it on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Interesting information - thank you.

I have done a bit more searching. Margaret Birney's death record for 11 August 1875 aged 69 shows very similar information to that of William's. She was in Slievebane; married (therefore her husband would have still been alive); she was a wife of a farmer; and she had general debility as a cause of death - although her record does not say how long this took and it was uncertified. Interestingly, the informant was George Birney, present at death, Slievebane. I wonder why William was not the informant for her death. Perhaps William couldn't get out and about that much? Or maybe George had offered to be the informant? Also interesting that it took nearly a month for the death to be recorded - the date for this is 4 September 1875.

Looking at William's death record, to compare how long it took for his death to get recorded, the gap was much shorter: death on 25 April 1877 and the record was done on 8 May 1877. The same Deputy Registrar, C Wilson, recorded both deaths.

I also had a look at George Birney's death record for 4 November 1879, aged 76. He died in Slievebane as a widower. He was a farmer. His certified cause of death is Cirrhosis of Liver which apparently affected him for 2 years. Catherine Birney was the informant, present at death, Slievebane. The record was done 15 November 1879, so the gap between death and recording the death was quite short. The registrar for this record was A Irvine.

Since George's death record shows he had been married at some stage, I went looking for his marriage record. If he was somehow related to William Birney and lived with or near him, perhaps he married at the same venue that William married Margaret Noble at in 1822? This thought invited me to check the records at IGP for St Mary's Ardess at Magheraculmoney. I found a George Birney who married an Eleanor? Armstrong on 28 July 1825, which might be him.

To check whether George and William are brothers or cousins or other related something, I'd need to find out whether they share the same parents. I'm not sure whether records can be found for William's birth / baptism as he has an approximate birth year of 1797.

Hmmm. The search continues...

annedernow@gmail.com

Anne,

You mention the delay in registering the death. That was very common. If you lived way out in the country, it was often a lengthy journey to go and see the Registrar, and so people often waited till they were in town for some other purpose and did it then. There was theoretically a penalty for late registration of births and deaths so folk often got around that by moving the date to one that did not attract a penalty. (You will often find baptisms a month before a person was born, according to their birth certificate. Parents moving the date was the explanation for that).

The reason for George registering the deaths is likely, as you say, because he was more mobile.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

I've been on the search again for William Birney's birth, to try to confirm or compare his parents with parents of the George Birney I found recently, mentioned above, to attempt to figure out whether they are brothers or not.

William's birth / baptism for a year 1797 thereabouts is proving difficult to find. I have not found his baptism record at St Mary's in Ardess, so he may have been baptised elsewhere, or perhaps not baptised at all.

George, on the other hand, I believe I may have found in this list of baptisms: https://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/ardess-bap-0… If this is the George that could be related to William Birney somehow, he apparently belongs to parents named Adam Birney and Margaret (surname not listed). George's baptism at St Mary's in Ardess was done together with the baptism of a sister, Jane Birney, on 11 July 1802. Their residence appears to be Slaybane - which is probably a variant spelling for Slievebane. So, it might be possible that George and Jane could be twins.

I have yet to find a way to link George and Jane to William.

In the list of records for St Mary's Ardess baptisms earlier than 1800, a few years' worth of records appear to be missing. No records are listed for anyone for 1797, so if William was baptised there during that year, I now have no idea how I would find it.

Interestingly, there is a record for a John Birney being baptised at St Mary's Ardess in 1799. This is the first Birney baptism at Ardess that I have been able to find. He was baptised on 27 December 1799. His parents are an Andrew (with a question mark by the transcriber who has transcribed records - so John's father's name might not actually be Andrew, but could be Adam, perhaps?) and Margaret (no surname listed), residing at Slaybane. http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/ardess-bap-01…; Is John a brother of George and Jane, and possibly William, then, if his father Andrew is actually Adam? How to work out Andrew / Adam's name?

John's baptism being the first one I've found for St Mary's in Ardess makes me wonder where his parents and their families had been prior to baptising their children at Ardess.

 

 

annedernow@gmail.com

Anne,

George & Jane Birney might be twins or it could also be that the family just decided to baptise the two together. The Catholic church likes to baptise children within a few days of birth but other denominations see it as less urgent, and with the Church of Ireland you sometimes find batches of baptisms where 3 or 4 children are all baptised together (with ages ranging from say 1 to 6).

You ask how to determine Andrew/Adam’s correct name. The answer would be to look at the original (which appears to be held by the church) or the copy in PRONI in the hope that it’s slightly clearer.

You wonder where the Birney family were before that. As you say it may have been an adjacent parish, probably one whose records don’t go back to the 1700s. There were two Birney families recorded in Fermanagh around 1630 in the Muster Rolls. They lived in the Barony of Clankelly which is a bit further east than Slievebane. Both households had a James Burney/James Birney. James Burney is noted as having been killed in the 1641 uprising. He gets a mention in the deposition of Robert Aldrich in 1644. (P 1009 of the deposition).

https://www.1641.tcd.ie/index.php

But that tells you there were some families in Fermanagh in the early 1600s (having probably arrived as part of the Plantation in the period 1610 - 1625). MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland says Burney/Birney is “A Scottish name of Norse origin of comparatively recent introduction in Ireland, now numerous in north east Ulster.” Probably around half the population of Fermanagh shares similar roots in Scotland so this is not too surprising to read.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hi Anne

I have just come across your posting re the Bernie Family. I too am a descendant of George and Sarah - their daughter Virginia was my paternal grandmother. She married John Thomas Johnson - his family farmed at Wilde's Meadow near Burrawang in the Southern Highlands. His family was from Muckros near Kesh in Fermanagh and his father emigrated to Australia in 1860.  My father Charles John was the eldest child of Virginia and John.

Most of what I have about George and Sarah is from the book "The George and Sarah Birnie Family History" compiled by Evelyn Hoyle published in 1997. This has information about them in Ireland, but most of the 127 pages are about the descendants in Australia and includes many photos. Even me and my family are included, even though I am a kiwi (my father moved to NZ just before World War Two, married my mother, and never returned to live in Oz).

I would be happy to give you any help I can. It would be worth trying to find a copy of the book above if you can - as I remember from my last visit, there is a very good second hand book shop in Bowral? or Moss Vale? which might have it, or look out for it for you. I know that there are other copies around as I have seen the printed pages of the children of the family on line.

Cheers

Barry Johnson

barry_liz@xtra.co.nz

5 Tereice Street, Blenheim,7201, New Zealand

 

 

 

barry_liz@xtra.co.nz

It's been a while since I've logged in here to Ireland XO. Thanks to all who have responded here so far and are assisting me.

Elwyn, Apologies that I've been so quiet lately. I'll respond to your latest post here (from a few years ago according to the timestamp - has it really been that long?!?), when I get a chance to follow up on your suggestion about PRONI etc.

Barry, hello! Nice to e-meet you.

Thank you for the information you have given, and for your offer to help, which is gratefully accepted. I don't know much about George and Sarah's daughter Virginia or your Johnson family that Virginia married into. 

I'm aware of the book you mention, as my family and I are also in it. However, getting my hands on a copy is currently proving elusive. There is one in the State Library of Queensland (Australia) - I unfortunately don't live close by to that library, and it is located in a reference area of the library whereby the book cannot be loaned out. Nor am I close to Wildes Meadow, Burrawang, Moss Vale or Bowral to visit these areas where our family were based. Hopefully one day I'll spend some time in those areas.

Hope to keep in contact and assist each other. 

Anne

 

annedernow@gmail.com

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