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John Jones and Jane Bell - married in Drummully in 1873

FermanaghDrummully (Fermanagh)

I am very pleased to discover this page and I hope that someone might be able to help me with a real brick wall. John Jones and Jane Bell - as named in the title above -were my great, great-grandparents but I have failed to find out anything about them other than that which is contained in their marriage record from 1873.

According to the record, they were married "by licence" on 29 July1873 in Drummully parish by the incumbent clergyman - a Thomas Richard Conway. Both John and Jane were described to be of full age ... so both born before 1851 or 1852. John Jones is described as a farmer and his father's name is stated to be John Jones. His address is given as Clonlura, Drummully Parish.

Jane Bell's address is stated as Cleenagh, Parish of Clones. Her father's name is given as John Bell. The witnesses are a Thomas Jones and an Eliza Bell, whom I presume might be the groom's brother and the bride's sister.

I do not know if both John Jones and Jane Bell were actually from this parish originally but I have a suspicion that John Jones might have been from Scotland. By 1874, John and Janehad moved to Scotland where they had three children that I know of - the youngest of whom was my great-grandfather William, who was born in 1877 in Dunbartonshire. I have never found John and Jane on any census, so I do not know anything about them after 1877. When my great-grandfather, William Jones, married in 1903, the marriage record stated that his mother was deceased by this time but I cannot find any trace of a death record for her in Scotland. It is possible that the family returned to N. Ireland at some stage - soperhaps she died there. Likewise, I cannot find any definitive proof of when John Jones died either. The only other record I have seen which beartheir names is the marriage record of their daughter Elizabeth in 1909 but on that there is no indication that either parent has died, even though William's marriage record states his motherwas already deceased by 1903.

I apologise for the length of this post, but thought I might as well state everything I know from the outset, in the hope that someone can shed some light or offer some insights into either John Jones or Jane Bell - or their families. Many thanks for taking the time to read.

IrelandXO member

4 replies

Carol,

Clonlura is a townland in Co. Mongahan, not Co. Fermanagh. The parish boundary for Drummully straddles the Fermanagh - Monaghan border. Part of the boundary to Clonlura is the county border (and now the modern international border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland). I do not see any Jones family farming there in Griffiths Valuation in 1861. You could check the Valuation revision records for subsequent tenants around the 1870s. Those are kept in the Valuation Office in Dublin. There were no Jones households there in the 1901 census. See:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Drummully/Clonlura/

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church. I assume the denomination was Church of Ireland. So you might find Jane’s baptism in parish records. There are copies of the Clones parish records in PRONI in Belfast. A personal visit is required to view them.

I can’t identify the townland of Cleenagh. Clones parish also straddles the Fermanagh – Monaghan border so could be in either but I don’t know of any townland that fits that name.

I looked in the 1901 Irish census for William or Elizabeth Jones born in Scotland. There was one William, born in Glasgow, but he had different parents. No Elizabeth.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hi Elwyn,

Many thanks for your reply. The information I have is solely taken from the marriage record but I had already become aware that Drummully parish straddled the border between Fermanagh and Monaghan and indeed on this very website there are two message boards for Drummully - one which states it as part of Fermanagh and another stating it as part of Monaghan. No wonder Irish records are so baffling! 

I appreciate your input regarding there not being any Joneses farming in Clonlura in 1861. This would confirm my own belief that my 2x great-grandfather was probably not a native, but rather born elsewhere - probably Scotland. Although he is described as a "Farmer" on their marriage entry, the birth and marriage records of his children state his occupation to be either farm labourer or shepherd.

A bit more digging around today yielded the information that Cleenagh was apparently a townland in the Barony of Coole - if that means anything to you or clarify its location more precisely ?  I'm afraid all these geographical divisions are a little confusing for me, as I am completely new to Irish records. Viewing the PRONI records in Belfast could be a little tricky, as I am in Scotland... but it might be something to add to my "to do" list.

In the interim, do you know if there are any other census records available online which might point me in the direction of finding out more about Jane Bell's family?... or indeed any other sources of information?

Many thanks for your assistance,

Carol

IrelandXO member

 

Carol,

Found Cleenagh. It’s in Fermanagh. It’s also right on the border but a bit further west from Clonlura, near Wattle Bridge which is east of Newtownbutler.  In the middle of nowhere really.

In 1828, the tithe applotment records list 4 Bell farms in the townland:

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-drummully.php#.WYuKLRR9eg0

In 1862, I found John Bell senior there with plot 4a an 11 acre farm. And John Bell junior had plot 7bc which was a house, land and a garden.

You can see it in Griffiths Valuation:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

The revaluation revision records show John Bell senior was deleted in 1869. John Bell junior changed to Jane in 1875 and then to John McCracken in 1878.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni

There are a couple of John Bell deaths that you might want to look at, both registered in Lisnaskea. One was on 9.9.1874 aged 70, the other 1.4.1878 aged 74. Either might be JB senior. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

No Bells in Cleenagh after 1878. 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Derrysteaton/Clunagh/

You ask about other censuses. Sadly, save for a few fragments, all the censuses pre 1901 were destroyed.  The 1901 & 1911 censuses are the only 2 complete censuses in Ireland. Having said that there are some fragments for Cleenagh.

With the passing of the Old Age Pension Act on August 1, 1908, it became necessary for persons who thought themselves eligible to provide proof of age. The law required that the applicant have attained the age of seventy as of January 1, 1909; making persons born in 1839 and earlier eligible.

However, proof posed problems for many applicants. Since civil registration of births did not commence until January 1, 1864, a birth certificate did not exist. A baptismal register entry would suffice as proof if such a register existed and contained the applicant's name and the name of the parents. Proof of marriage from a superintendent Registrar Office was also acceptable. Men who had done military service could submit Discharge Records.

A large number of applicants sought proof of age from the 1841 and/or 1851 Censuses (which still existed at that time). The original population schedules were on file in Dublin, and a system was provided to search for the needed information. Abstracts from these searches have survived and include the name of the claimant, his or her parents' names, the townland, parish, barony and county, age at the time of claim and age at the time of the relevant census return.

I searched the abstracts and found several applications by Bells from Cleenagh.  I have attached the link to the website and you can search them yourself. You may struggle to follow the scribblings on the individual applications.

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp

One records an application made by an unnamed son of John & Eliza Bell who married in 1826 and who in the 1841 census had children Richard aged 24 and Margaret 28. (Though the ages might suggest it was probably the 1851 census that was searched). The applicant isn’t named but was writing c/o John E Houston of 121 Rugby Ave, Belfast in 1916. I think he was Richard.

Another application on 9.2.1916 was for a child of William & Sarah Bell who married in 1825. They had children John, Thomas, Rebecca, William & Elizabeth in the 1841 census.

Then we have James Bell of Newtownbutler whose parents were James and either Elizabeth or Matilda Bell (presumably he couldn’t remember). The 1821 census was searched and found James 20, Elizabeth 20, Thomas 4, Mary Ann 3, and Margaret 1. This looks to be him in the 1911 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Newtown_Butler/Newtown_Butler_Town/513426/

Then we have Richard Bell applying on 17.1.1922. His parents were John & Eliza Bell who married 1826. The 1841 census appears to show John aged 37, a widower, with Margt 2, Sarah 8 & Jane 6. His wife Jane had died in 1846. Richard was also listed. No age given.

Otherwise, church records are about all there is to search in this case.

 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

This is a phenomenal amount of effort you have gone to on my account Elwyn. I am incredibly grateful to you for this. 

There's clearly a lot to look at and study, to see if I can make sense of it all, so I shall take a bit of time to look at everything you have posted and linked to and I will make copious notes to see if I can form a logical picture of what the Bell family comprised and see if I can make sense of all these relationships.

I'll be sure to let you know how I get on and if I succeed in establishing who is who. Many thanks again for all your valuable input - it is greatly appreciated.

Carol

IrelandXO member

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