Hello, I have been searching in Ireland for records regarding the Manary Family..I came accross 2 land records for a James Manary .. one in 1787 and one in 1789 both have him located in Ballywalter for these years...The 1787 record indicates that his landlord was MR. Price...The second one does not list a landlord...Any help that could be provided on James would be greatly appreciated.. Thank You. Todd Manary
The surname can be spelled Menary and that seems to be a more common version in Co Down, so you may wish to bear that in mind when searching the records.
You don’t say what denomination the Manary family were. However none of the churches in the area has any baptism or marriage records for the 1700s so you seem unlikely to be able to trace the family from that source.
There’s no Manary households in Ballywalter in the tithe applotment records, so if they had been landowners, it looks as they were gone by 1834.
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/down/tithe-applotment-books/ballywalter-parish.php#.VofqqhF2ug0
The Ulster Historical Foundation has the 1803 agricultural census for Co. Down on its site. You might want to search that (pay to view).
The Registry of Deeds may have leases registered for James Manary. Those records are not on-line. The originals are in the Registry of Deeds in Dublin. A duplicate set is kept in PRONI but a personal visit is required to search them in either location. If James was a freeholder in 1789 then it indicated he had a reasonable amount of land. That in turn increases the chances of a lease being registered in the Registry of Deeds. A common sort of lease in the 1700s was a 3 lives lease which would give some family information. However not all leases were 3 lives leases and not all were registered either.
TY for your reply Elwyn...What about any information on the Mr. Price as the Landlord on the 1787 record...If he was listed as the landlord he too should have a large amount of land...I also came accross a record for a John Manary 1819 in the Ballywalter area...His land lord was The Earl of Charlemont....
I found this record for Cromwell Price
There’s about 78 papers in PRONI on the name Cromwell Price (I suspect there was more than 1 Cromwell Price), mostly in the series D552/B/1/1/xxx & D650/xxx & D1071/xxx
An example is D650/5 dated 28th Oct 1719, is one of the 3 lives leases I mentioned earlier:
Lease of three tenements and 17acres for three lives (Cromwell and Nicholas Price sons of lessor and John Meredith, Donaghadee) renewable for ever. Rent: £8 per annum + fees. (In dorso). Assignment by Rev. Charles Norris and Elizabeth Norris, Ballyloghan and Jane Williamson, Mount Alexander to Joseph Poulter, Saintfield, Consideration: £10. Hon. Col. Nichs. Price, Hollymount, Co. Down to Jane Meredith, Legigoan, Co. Down. Relating to Saintfield Town and Ballyagherty, Co. Down.
He seems to have been one of the MPs for the Downpatrick area and so there’s a fair amount of correspondence between him and other dignitaries. You would need to work your way through them to see if there is any mention of Manary.
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_eCatNI_IE/SearchPage.aspx
Bear in mind the catalogue only has a summary of each document. If you want to see the full document, you either need to go in person or pay PRONI to copy them for you.
TY Elwyn...In searching PRONI the record for John Manary 1819 Lugraboy does appear as a freeholder
Being a freeholder meant that he had land with a 40 shilling (£2) freehold, which was the qualification for a vote. (The threshold went up to £10 in about 1830 which obviously disenfranchised many people).
Lurgaboy is a townland in Mullaghbrack. I don’t see any Manary households there in the tithes (1834) so that suggests John’s family had moved away by that date. Likewise they are not listed in Griffiths Valuation of the townland (1864). The Freeholder information does show that John had a 3 lives lease but unfortunately the other 2 lives appear to be royalty (ie Princesses Sophia & Amelia), so no family information from that source. Royalty were quite popular in 3 lives leases because they were expected to be pretty healthy and live for a long period. (The lease lasted until all 3 named in it had died). Princess Amelia died in 1810 but Sophia lasted till 1848, so the Manary household presumably sold the lease on when they left, pre 1834. Or they may have sold it back to the Charlemont estate.
You would need to search the Charlemont papers and the Registry of Deeds records for Lurgaboy to see if there are any other records relating to John Manary. (That really requires a personal visit to PRONI).
TY again Elwyn for this information....From what I am understanding...on a 3 lives lease the owner was the individual...ie John Manary... and the other 2 lives were most often Royalty or hierarchy of the British government..so that if the lease holder (John Manary) either died or wanted out of his part of the lease the land was automatically returned or given back to the government?
This is the only other significant record that I can find..TY for your help
The 3 lives lease simply lasted as long as all 3 people named in it were still alive. Often you get 3 generations of the same family. (Which is why they can be helpful to genealogists). However because there was a high death rate amongst young people, lessees often named royalty (who were expected to have long lives), as in this case, as one or two of the other lives. That way the lease might hopefully run for many years. The rent was usually fixed for the duration of the lease so that was popular with tenants. At the end of the lease the property reverted to the superior landlord. If the tenant wanted out whilst the lease still was valid, he could sell it. The land would only revert to the Crown (ie to the Government) if the owner of the land (not the tenant) died intestate and without next of kin.
Ok..TY you again Elwyn...You are doing a great job at helping me to understand how things worked in Ireland..So ie.. John Manary would name royalty as the other 2 on his lease and if he died his family would still be able to stay on the land as long as the other 2 leasors were still alive? Or what happened to the land if John Died?
Sorry again..... I am assuming that the other 2 people on the lease would not know that they were named on the lease?
Sorry again Elwyn... So under these agreements if Princess Sophia was named on the lease would she still be named as the leassor on the Griffiths Valuation since she did not die until 1948 ? Sorry so Many questions..
Princess Sophia is not the tenant. Manary was the tenant. The lease simply lasted as long as the 3 people named on it were alive. (In the case of royalty they wouldn't know they were named. And they weren't entitled to anything. They weren't tenants). It's just a commercial gamble. You could agree to lease a piece of land from me. Instead of specifying a precise duration, we could agree in the lease that it would just last as long as President Obama is alive. We don't know how long he'll live. He might live 1 year or another 40. Who knows? (Save that, like royalty, he'll have the best medical treatment and so might be expected to live a long life. Or he might be assassinated tomorrow.). One of us might get a really good deal and the other not. That was how it worked in the 1700s. There were benefits for both landlord and tenant in this arrangement. It may seem odd but it worked quite well.
OK TY...I Think I am getting it....So if John Manary died would the lease be transfered to his children? The reason I am asking is because my James Manary (born 1793) came to Canada in the late 1820's or early 1830's... If John was his father and passed away, James could have sold the lease back to the Earl of Charlemont and Came to Canada.... If he did not inherit the lease this would have given him good cause to leave Ireland...This could be the reason no Manary appears on the Griffiths Evaluation.....Then further to this the John Manary Record that shows he was Christened in 1762 in Seaforde , Down county could be the same John Manary that holds this lease..and My James' father...
Sorry Elwyn...Further to the above questions....The James Manary that shows up in 1787 and 1789 in Ballywalter. could actually be John's father...
OPPS sorry error made with that final thought...The John born in Seaforde has his father listed as William and mother Mary
I cannot believe that I have so many Manary records of them being born in Ireland but I can find hardly anything IN Ireland ps..I have been researching for over 2 years
If the tenant died but at least one of the other persons named on the lease were still alive, then the unexpired portion of the lease would pass to the next of kin in accordance with the deceased’s will or in accordance with the laws of intestacy if he didn’t have one.
When all 3 were dead, the lease expired. It would then be up to the occupants of the land to negotiate a new lease, at a new rent, with the landlord.
Re the scarcity of the name in Ireland, I suspect the answer is that the majority went by the version Menary, which is more common here. There are no Manary households in Co Down in the 1901 census but there are 20 people named Menary.
Yes Elwyn that seems to be the common argument amongst other family researchers...Menary/McNary/Mchenery and others....That is what I am researching....For this to be the case it would mean that several Menary's from different famillies changed their name to Manary on their move to other parts of the world...I contend that the Manary clan always existed as it is spelled...atleast in the 17 and 1800's ....This is what I am researching....My list of people born in Ireland that moved to other areas of the world would indicate that the name Manary existed in Ireland...as it is spelt...not a variation of another spelling as some of my fellow researchers have concluded..... John Manary christened March 21 1762 Father William, Isabella Manary Christened May 15, 1803 Eglish Parish, Armagh...... John Manary Born 1813 Ireland, John Manary born 11811 Ireland, James Manary born 1805, Ireland... James Manary born 1806, Ireland. Father John Mother Ann....Jane Manary born 1817 Ireland,....James Manary born 1817, Ireland James Manary born 1801 Ireland...Robert Manary Born 1795 Ireland ..James Manary born 1793 Ireland ( My Family)....Micheal Manary Born 1814 Ireland....Patt Manary Born 1816 Ireland.....Hugh Manary born 1797 Ireland.....Etc. Etc... All of these Manary's show up in different towns in different countries...at different times.....Right down to a Manary and sorry his first name escapes me...but he was the superintedant of the Belfast Railway system and retired there....His father I believe was born in Ireland and moved to England and was a Bricklayer....Mr. Manary returned and retired as the Superintendant....TY again for all of your help..
There may not have been many Manary famillies..and we may all be interlinked or we may not be....but I believe that Manary and Menary are different famillies...This is why finding the James Manary in Ballywalter was very important to me...