About birth registrations and maiden names?

Hi,

On a recent search that I did, also in Cork, this situation happened. Using your example, when Ellen Holland married her second husband, her name on their civil marriage record was O'Leary & Holland, but when Ellen gave birth to a child of O'Leary, her maiden name of Barry was on the civil birth record. Essentially, said child was no relation to Phillip Holland. I cannot say with 100% certainty this was the custom everywhere, but it is one example I found.

Regards,

Hello Carolyn

Thanks for taking the time. Much appreciated. If I understand you correctly - the woman's maiden name of Barry would be used on the registration for the birth of subsequent children by her and O'Leary - but her previous marriage name (Holland) was used to register the marriage between her and O'Leary? Do I have that right?

 

Kind Regards

Mike.

Mike,

Yes, that is correct. Another thing to note if you are ever looking at baptism sponsor's surnames in trying to piece together the siblings, if a woman was married and was asked to be a baptism sponsor, they used her maiden name in the record and not her married name. In your example, if you saw an O'Leary child with sponsors also named O'Leary, for example Michael O'Leary & Catherine O'Leary, they were probably siblings of the father O'Leary...Michael and Catherine were not married to each other. They could also be another relation besides siblings, of course, but I just wanted to point out the use of a maiden name for a married sponsor.

Regards, 

Hi Carloyn,

I had no idea! That is a really useful piece of advice.

I have two roadblocks looking for three of my ancestors. One is a male child's baptismal record from Murragh/Bandon (pre-1964). I think the placename is correct but that the names are in the wrong order (this prompted me in part to ask my previous question). It looks as though his mother is recorded as a sponsor and another person is recorded as his mother. I'll to have to go back and have a long think given what you've just told me.

I'm also looking for twins that have a civil birth record (post-1964) but I can't, for the life of me, find a baptism record - which I would like in order to to give me a second source to plausibly identify them. I've searched the surrounding parishes in the same diocese but to no avail as yet.

Again - many thanks for your help.

Kind regards

Mike.

 

Hi Mike,

If you give me the names that you are searching for, I'd be happy to take a look. One other tip, although I do not know how frequently this occurred, but I read "somewhere" that this has happened -  when recording the names; the priest, after perhaps having a wee bit of drink at the celebration post baptism, mixes up the mother's name with the female sponsor's name. I found this in a record in the past.

Cheers!

Hi Carolyn - that's a wonderful offer, thank you. I'd be grateful.

 

The dates are as near as I can tell.

1) Patrick O'Leary bapt 17 Mar 1859 (in Murragh I think) - this is the mixed-up one. I can't tell if it's him because of the mixed up names.

a) Father - Denis O'Leary of Scrahan, near Newcestown, Parish of Murragh (I think)

Source:
https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000632433_173
Microfilm 04794 / 01 | Page 173, Bandon; County of Cork; Diocese of Cork and Ross. Baptisms, Mar. 1834

b) Mother Ellen Hallahan (cannot find her other than below)

Source:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

 

2) Twins to the same parents - no baptism record?

a) Timothy & Hanora O'Leary b. 5 Sept 1873

Source: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Patrick migrated to Queensland, Australia and married in Brisbane in 1898 - (I have no clue how he got there ).

I'm fairly certain this family was related to some of the O'Leary's of Derrycoole.

 

Kind Regards

Mike.

 

Hi Mike,

I think that I may have an answer for you...emphasis on think! First of all, the parish baptism records for the RC parish of Murragh/Templemartin go from 1834 to 1864, and that is why there is no parish record for the twins. I do think they are a part of this family though. I also found another sibling, but first to explain Patrick's record. It shows his mother as Ellen Allen, and I think that is an error in writing down the name after hearing it OR possibly a derivative for Hallihane, Hallahan, etc...If you Google the surnames Allen and Hallahan, they share sort of a common Gaelic root of "aille" and "aluinn"...both referring to beauty or being handsome. In any case, I think it was heard incorrectly. Attached is their marriage record, and one of the witnesses was Thomas Allen of all things. On Patrick's baptism record, Ellen Leary is one sponsor - probably a relative of Denis. 

I am unclear now regarding your initial post with the names Barry and Holland....do they have anything to do with this? Or were you just giving random names as an example?

Johanna Leary, 9 Mar 1861 is another child of Denis Leary and Ellen Hallihan, residence - Scrahn, Murragh & Templemartin, sponsors - Daniel Leary & Catherine Halihane. 

I must say that 12 years is quite a span between the birth of Johanna and the twins, but I could not locate other children....not totally unheard of though. 

In case you're interested, I did see parish baptism records on irishgenealogy.ie under the church records tab for Ellen Hallahane (26 Jul 1835) and Denis Leary (22 Dec 1835)...they could be your couple.

Your very first attachment above doesn't relate here because it is from the RC parish of Bandon in March 1834.

Finally, there is an excellent article on IRO that you can search for entitled Irish Naming Conventions and Baptism Traditions that provides a lot of good information.

Regards,

 

Mike,

Just checked Ancestry records, and it has a Patrick O'Leary, 29 years old, born Abt 1856 (this is wrong, but not important), from County Cork, departed from London, England and arrived in Brisbane on 23 Sep 1885. Also, you probably have see the Australia death index of 1918 that shows his parents were Denis O'Leary and Ellen Hallahan.

 

Hi Carolyn - that's wonderful news! And thanks so much. I'm indebted indeed.

Firstly re: the Barry/Holland reference. Yes they were random names, nearly. When I found Patrick's baptismal record and saw the mix-up with the names I wondered why. I supposed perhaps that he may have been an orphaned child taken in by the family. I've seen other seemingly ophan baptisms with no mother/father and just sponsors. Then I came upon this:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

where a child named Daniel's mother is given as Holland. Then I wondered perhaps if his original mother had died and the father remarried - I tested for that but couldn't put the pieces together because I came up with different surnames and then abandoned the idea because there where other subsequent children with the correct parents. As you can imagine this complex and confusing especially from this distance. Another scenario might have been that both his original parents had died and he grew up in another family, believing his name to be Leary. All improbable perhaps but worth investigating to a degree.

I'm really keen to chase up the baptismal record sources for Ellen Hallahan and Denis Leary. My assumption was that Ellen was born c. 1841 and didn't look any earlier than that, not realising that would make her, probably, too young to have a child in 1859 (Patrick, of Ellen and Denis).

But more importantly - the emigration record !

I have a 'Patrick' and a 'Timothy' O'Leary (records from Immigration lists from Queensland Archives). Both arriving on the Duke of Buccleuch on 23 Sept 1885 (into Moreton Bay I think). When I saw it, it only made sense for Patrick - because if it was both he and his brother Timothy then Timothy would surely be too young - it would put him at about twelve years old. Also I couldn't get my head around the point that he travelled to London to board ship. That would surely have been a Hurculean task for a poor man from an Irish family? I entertained the idea that they might have left from Liverpool? All of the logistics getting to London seemed too much.

If it's helpful to others, I can send the QSA references regarding the Duke of Buccleuch's log but they are on-line too. Anyway thanks again for your efforts. I'm truely grateful

Regards, Mike.

 

Mike,

Regarding the emigration record, London is just the final stop before the ship left for Brisbane...it probably originated in Cobh (Queenstown), Cork, then sailed first to  Plymouth, and then to London before heading to Australia. There were very few direct Ireland to Australia routes at that time. Yes, the record reflects it landed in Moreton Bay; and it's not out of the question that his much younger brother age 12 went with him to Australia. 

Regards,