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Migration from Lislee to Cheltenham

CorkLislee (Cork)

Hi. My name is Peter Clifford and I was born in 1958 in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England, but I have connections with Lislee, Co. Cork. 

When I researched my family tree some years ago, however, I discovered that I have ancestors who settled in Cheltenham in the 1850s and who originated from Lislee. Daniel Grace and his wife Julia Hooper were married  in Lislee Catholic church in 1833 and my great-great-grandfather Michael Grace was baptised there in 1838. The baptism records suggest that they lived in Ballymacshoneen, and there are certainly Graces recorded in Griffith's in that townland. Sometime between 1851 and 1857, James and Julia Grace and their children appear to have left Ireland and moved to Cheltenham. The first record of the Graces in Cheltenham that I have found is the marriage of James and Julia's eldest son James to Johanna McCarthy at St Gregory's Catholic church in Cheltenham on 31 Oct 1857.

Having now retired, I am doing an M.A. by Research with the University of Gloucestershire, and have chosen as my research topic "The Irish in Cheltenham, 1801-1861". I'm wondering if anyone on here can help me with my current project?

It is well known that thousands of Irish people come to Cheltenham every year for the horse racing, but what is less well known is that quite a sizeable number of Irish people settled in Cheltenham during the 19th century. That's not particularly unusual, but what is pretty much unique is that the Irish population of Cheltenham was fairly evenly split between a well-to-do Irish-born Protestant group (many of whom had been officers in he British Army or the East India Company's armed forces, or colonial administrators) and a working-class Catholic community. It's this latter group that I'm most interested in. 

One thing that is clear from my research so far is that a large proportion of the working-class Irish people who came to Cheltenham originated in County Cork. What is also emerging is that a surprising number of them were from Lislee, or other nearby places like Clonakilty. I would love to understand better what factors may have influenced these people to leave Ireland when they did (the Great Famine will, of course, have been one of them, but the timing - mid-1850s rather than late-1840s - seems peculiar if that were the main one). Also, what on earth made so many people from the one small area come to Cheltenham, which was not exactly an obvious place to find employment?

One thing I have learned, and which I am hoping somebody on here might help me understand better, is that Ballymacshoneen and several other pieces of land owned by one Robert Tresilian of Bandon (who seems possibly to have emigrated to Australia some 13 years earlier) were sold, under the terms of the Incumbered Estates Act, in 1853. Ballymacshoneen was purchased by one John Longfield, about whom I currently know nothing (work in progress..). I am wondering if it's possible there was a wave of tenant evictions following the sale, and whether this could have a bearing on the arrival of people from Lislee in Cheltenham in the following years? That still begs the question why they came here, of course, but I suspect some form of "chain migration" was at play, ie one person made the move, then others followed suit later to join up with people they'd known back home previously.

If anyone is able to give me any local historical insights into all of this, that would be fantastic. If nothing else, I'm hoping somebody might be able to suggest books to read or other groups to contact?

Many thanks for any help you can offer.

Pete
 

Pete Clifford

10 replies

Pete,

The attached may be of some assistance to you.

Regards,

McCoy

Many thanks for taking the trouble to send those. 

 

Pete

Pete Clifford

Pete,

Please see attached on Courtmacsherry and Lislee - 1837 - Lewis' Dictionary.

Credit: John and Eoin Grenham.

Regards,

McCoy

Pete,

The Encumbered Estates court was very similar (in Ireland anyway) to the financial crash around 2008. The Great Famine was just over and the income of many landlords had fallen dramatically. However, for many their lifestyle had not changed and they were still spending as if nothing had happened. In many cases, their properties were mortgaged to fund the maintenance of a good lifestyle. Therefore, their debts were greater than their assets, and when the debts were called-in they couldn't afford to pay them. They had to sell their property at considerably less than it was worth. In that way, property ownership changed hands and those with a little bit of cash could acquire land at a cheap rate. Yes, it is possible that evictions followed. This is probably a simplification of the situation, which probably involved a multitude of other issues. But it does explain it without getting into too much detail.

There were a number of reasons for emigration from Ireland in the period you refer to. The famine from 1845 to 1851 is called the Great Famine. One of the reasons for this is that it was. There were many other famines in the first half of the nineteenth century, some local and some and some more widespread but not as serious as the 1845 one. For example, the famine of 1822 was caused by heavy rain on the potato crop of the previous year. It mainly affected Connaught and west Munster. All of this misery and lack of opportunity would have encouraged people to emigrate, possibly to an area where other family and neighbours had emigrated to.

In the early nineteenth century, a father could divide his land holding equally among his children, even before his death. This led to multiple reducing tenancies that were more difficult for the landlord to deal with. In 1826 a law was introduced to prohibit this practice. A father could only leave his tenancy to one child and only on death or retirement. This was generally the eldest son.  Therefore, second and third (and other) sons had little prospects if they stayed at home. Emigration was an option; and as you say, 'chain migration' sounded good. The 1826 law would have taken a few years for the impact to be felt, and its implementation was probably increased and complexed with the Great Famine.

Don't know if this will help, but these are just a few thoughts that may lead to further research possibilities.

Best wishes, Kieran

Kieran Jordan, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Just wanted to say, Peter, that sounds like an interesting topic for an M.A. Some of my ancestors, the  Brushneens, who I have been researching, also came to Cheltenham from County Cork in the 1850s. I thought this was perhaps an isolated kind of thing, but clearly not, from what you’re saying. Patrick Brushneen, the eldest child of that family, married a Johanna Regan, and her father Timothy I think came from Lislee in Cork (though I’m not completely sure of that)

michaellivsey

Many thanks to everyone who has responded so helpfully. Some very interesting and useful information. Michael: yes, I too think Timothy Regan originated from Lislee, and he and his family are of particular interest to me, because they are one of a group of 4-5 families who appear to have connections to both Lislee and Cheltenham and seem also to have spent time at Feargus O’Connor's Chartist colonies at Snigs End and/or Great Dodford. In fact, Johanna was born at Great Dodford on 9 Oct 1851 and baptized in the Roman Catholic church in nearby Bromsgrove on 12 Oct 1851. I'd love to understand more about what they were doing there. None of these families appear to have been allottees who were assigned plots on the colonies, but I suspect from the dates of birth of some of their children that they might have been employed to set up and prepare the colonies before the colonists' arrival, and some appear of the families to have taken plots after some of the colonists abandoned the site.

Let me know if this is of interest. I have pieced together a bit about the Regans' story. Timothy Regan had married Mary Conolly in Ledbury, Herefordshire in 1848 (marriage witnessed by a couple named Jeremiah and Honorah Murray - Honorah was definitely from Lislee). I suspect Mary had a sister or cousin named Catherine, as a Catherine Conolly married James Hurley in Lislee in 1840, and they and James's brother Michael Hurley all spent time at Great Dodford too (Michael was there on the census in 1861 and 1871 and died in Bromsgrove Workhouse in 1881). A Bartholomew Conolly (possibly their uncle?) was living with Michael in 1861 at Great Dodford, but died in James's house in Cheltenham a year later. The other couple with connections to Great Dodofrd and Cheltenham was  Patrick Sexton and his wife Margaret Tobin, who married at Lislee in 1831. A daughter Joanna Sexton was baptized at St Peter's (RC), Bromsgrove in 1848. In 1851 they were in Cheltenham, but had emigrated to the US by 1860. The final family I have to mention is Timothy White and his wife Ellen Murphy: they were living at the same address as the Sextons in 1851, and the 1861 census says two of their children had been born at Snigs End.

I really have no idea what's going on here, but the connections seem too many to be a coincidence!

 

Pete

Pete Clifford

Hello All, on the off chance it is relevant, this place is in West Cork near but not too close to the parish you meniton, a lot of Cornish people apparently came and while Cheltenham is not in Cornwall it too is near and there may have been copper mining there too resulting in a flow of workers.

Just a thought. https://curiousireland.ie/allihies-copper-mines-allihies-county-cork-18…;

 

Regards

Pat

newohalloran.p…IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks Pat. The nearest mines to here are in the Forest of Dean (coal, iron ore, plus quarrying) but that’s a good 40km away. I have collier ancestors from there.

 

Pete

Pete Clifford

I’m finding this of great interest Peter. Can’t help thinking that it was the prospect of work at Great Dodford that drew them over from Ireland in the first place? At least the Regans, and when that work was finished, they thought Cheltenham would be a good prospect?

michaellivsey

Yes, that's possible Michael, though quite why all of them came here is a puzzle to me, unless they influenced one another in that choice. And some had passed through Cheltenham on the way to Dodford (judging from baptism records). Anyway, if you want to see what I've pieced together on the Regans, and have access to Ancestry, here's the link to Timothy: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/183322204/person/282…

You can also email me at peteclifford58@gmail.com or peteclifford@connect.glos.ac.uk

 

Pete

 

Pete Clifford

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