Florence Crowley and Margaret Sullivan m. 18 Jan 1859 in Bandon

Linda,

Have you searched Irishgenealogy- Church Records. Irish Genealogy - Explore your Family History I found this record, but it assumes Florence came from Bandon.

Marriage record for JOHN CROWLY and MARY DONOVAN on 21 January 1838

Area - CORK & ROSS (RC), Parish/Church/Congregation - BANDON« Back to results

Regards- Mary

Linda,

Just in case you have not done so, why don't you look for death notices/obituaries for the men you think are brothers? Relationships might be mentioned.

The same goes for probate records, which usually specify relationships and areas; I saw a NY probate record not Iong ago that referred to the person's mother in Fethard, Co. Tipperary.

Assume you have seen the brothers' marriage and death records, which often name parents.

I hope this heIps.

Thank you. I will re-examine the death notices and obituaries. The marriage records state Florence and Mary Crowley. I have looked at James's death notice in US and unfortunately it is only a state record saying he died 16 Feb 1884. I have not found a marriage record for James or newspaper notice. For Florence, his obituary did not shed light on my questions. For brother, Thomas... I am not sure if he left Ireland or not. What records in Ireland would help determine if someone remained in Ireland?

Hello Linda,

The purpose of this reply is to see if you can advance your theory from your own research and FAN method, plus the information you’ll see coming up, that John, Florene, James, and Thomas Crowley came from the same family, and were the sons of Florence Crowley and Mary Burke.

FAN is the acronym for "Friends, Associates, and Neighbors," and was a concept proposed by genealogist Elizabeth Shown Mills, author of the book, Evidence! Citation and Analysis for the Family Historian, published by the Genealogical Publishing Co. in 1997.

I first learned about FAN many years ago under the term "Cluster Genealogy," and have used it with some success in my own genealogical research.

A good explanation about FAN can be found at the Occasional Genealogist website under the title of, What Is a Genealogy FAN Club? See:

https://www.theoccasionalgenealogist.com/2018/03/genealogy-fan-club-cluster-collateral.html

Below you'll see many primary Ireland source records for the family of Florence Crowley and Mary Burke, including a marriage transcription and copy of their original church marriage record, as well as baptism transcriptions and copies of original baptism records for eight of their children, including John, Florence, James, and Thomas Crowley.

The marriage and baptisms of the Crowleys all took place in the Bandon, County Cork Catholic Parish.

The town of Bandon was located in two different civil parishes in County Cork. These civil parishes were Ballymodan and Kilbrogan, according to the IreAtlas Townland Data Base at: https://tinyurl.com/42tdab8j

Under the “County” column of the IreAtlas, you’ll see, “Cork, W.R.” This stands for the West Ridings of County Cork, meaning that Bandon is located in western County Cork.

NOTE: The marriage and baptism records for the Crowley family in Ireland were discovered at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP is a subscription genealogy site but does have some free collections. One of these free collections includes Irish Catholic Parish registers for the 32 counties of Ireland. The majority of the parish registers are for the 19th century, but some go back to the 18th and even 17th centuries. Some extend into the early 20th century. END OF NOTE

According to the National Library of Ireland website, Bandon Catholic marriages are available from 29 July 1794 to 26 April 1881, though there are some gaps in the marriage registers.

Bandon Catholic baptisms are available from 5 January 1794 to 29 January 1881. There are some gaps in the baptism registers as well.

For more information about the availability of the Bandon registers and a map of the parish and surrounding Catholic parishes, go to the National Library of Ireland link at:

https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0017?locale=en

THE MARRIAGE OF FLO CROWLY AND "MARY BURKER"

In the FMP marriage transcription Florence is recorded as “Flo? Crowly,” and Mary as, “Mary Burker.” These spelling variations are likely due to the FMP transcriber having a difficult time reading the entry in the original marriage record, due to the hand writing.

Florence and Mary were married in the Bandon Catholic Parish on 8 November 1828. You can access the transcription at the following link. You may have to establish a free account with FMP before the transcription appears: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F0225446%2F1&tab=this

The FMP transcription comes with a link that takes you to copies of the original Bandon marriage registers, where the marriage of Florence and Mary is recorded.

I located their marriage entry in the registers. See the attachment. The marriage is indicated by the green arrow, and shows that the witnesses to the marriage were Con (Cornelius) Crowley and Ths (Thomas) Burke. In the right column of the marriage entry you’ll see Florence and Mary’s names recorded again.

Cornelius likely was Florence’s brother. Thomas was likely Mary’s brother.

You’ll see the initials “BD,” DMS in the register entry. I’m not sure what these stand for, though it’s possible DMS are the initials of the priest who married Florence and Mary.

THE CROWLEY BAPTISMS

Below are the names and years of baptisms for eight sons of Florence Crowley and Mary Burke from the FMP website transcriptions, and the National Library of Ireland:

I believe that you already have 7 of the Crowley baptisms, as mentioned in your post to Ireland Reaching Out, but I’d like to go over them with you, as I don’t know if you’ve seen the copies of the original baptisms, or just transcriptions.

The index below includes the 1839 baptism for “Floce” Crowly. This would be an abbreviation for Florence:

James Crowly 1829

Thomas Crowly, 1832

William Crowly 1834

Cornelius Crowly, 1837

Floce Crowly, 1839

John Crowly, 1841

Edward Crowly, 1843

George Crowly, 1846

—-

You’ll notice the baptisms are consistent, with no more than three years separating each baptism.

The baptisms occurred over a span of 17 years, which is an indication that Mary Burke had married in her late teens or early 20s.

THE BAPTISM OF JAMES CROWLY

James was baptized on 14 August 1829. His father’s first name is transcribed as “Floce.” The maiden name of his mother Mary is transcribed as, “Bush.” See the FMP baptism transcription at:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1112749&tab=this

A copy of the original baptism record from the National Library of Ireland is attached. You can see why the FMP transcriber thought that Mary’s maiden name was “Bush.”

James’s godparents are Mich (Michael) Collins, and Hanna Crowly.

It’s interesting to note that James was baptized on 14 August 1829, just 9 months and 6 days after his parents were married on 8 November 1828

THE BAPTISM OF THOMAS CROWLY

The FMP transcription shows that Thomas was baptized on 19 February 1832.

His father is transcribed as “Flo?” His mother is Mary “Burk.” See the transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1113709&tab=this

Thomas’s godfather is Con Crowly. His godmother is Mary Dineen.

It looks like Thomas’s godfather Con Crowley is the same Con Crowly who witnessed the 1828 marriage of Florence and Mary.

THE BAPTISM OF WILLIAM CROWLY

William was baptized on 12 May 1834 according to the FMP transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1114731&tab=this

His father is transcribed as “Flora Crowly,” and his mother as “Mary Busk.”

A copy of William’s baptism record, attached to this reply, shows his godfather was John Crowly and Mary Burk.

John Crowly could be Florence’s brother. Mary Burk may be a cousin, or perhaps a sister-in-law, that is, the wife of one of Mary Burke Crowley’s brothers.

THE BAPTISM OF CORNELIUS CROWLY

Cornelius was baptized on 25 April 1837, according to the FMP transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1115851&tab=this

The first name of Cornelius’s godfather in a copy of the original baptism record, attached, looks like Josh, for Joshua. His last name is Corcoran. The godmother is Margt Crowly.

Just below Cornelius’s baptism, is another baptism record for a Cornelius Crowly, son of John Crowly and Margt Riley. The godparents are Con Crowly and Cath White.

Florence Sr. and John Crowly may have been brothers who had children named Cornelius baptized on the same day, 25 April, 1837.

I’ll be referring to Cornelius’s baptism record again further on in this reply.

THE BAPTISM OF FLOCE (FLORENCE) CROWLY

The FMP transcription shows that Florence was baptized on 13 December 1839. His father is Floce Crowly. His mother is Mary “Buck.” See:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1116679&tab=this

A copy of the original baptism record is dark and faded. The godfather is Pat Burk. The first name of the godmother is Hanora or Honora. Her last name is difficult to read, but could be Molony.

Pat Burk may be Mary’s brother.

THE BAPTISM OF JOHN CROWLY

John was baptized on 21 September 1841. His father’s name is transcribed as, “Florn Crowly.” His mother is Mary Burk: See the FMP transcription:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1117288&tab=this

A copy of John’s original baptism record shows his godfather was Michl (Michael) Sullivan and Catherine Crowly.

THE BAPTISM OF EDWARD CROWLY

Edward was baptized on 10 September 1843, according to the FMP transcription:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1117957&tab=this

Edward’s godparents are James Burk and John Sullivan, according to a copy of the original baptism record. See the attachment.

THE BAPTISM OF GEORGE CROWLY

The FMP transcription shows that George was baptized on 5 August 1846:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1118996&tab=this

The copy of the original baptism record shows that George’s godfather is Thomas Doe and that his godmother is Jane Burk, who may be Mary’s sister.

Unfortunately, none of the eight baptisms recorded where the family had been living. They may have resided in Bandon Town itself, or in one of the surrounding townlands within the parish.

The baptism of George Crowly in 1846 means he was born during the Great Irish Famine, which took place from 1845 to 1851-52, though some historians place the worst years of the famine from 1845 to 1849. During this time period historians estimate that 1 million people died of starvation and disease, and that another million emigrated.

West Cork, where Bandon is located, was particularly hard hit by the famine.

The Crowleys who came to Boston from County Cork are known as Famine Immigrants, as they would have lived through the Great Famine before leaving Ireland.

For more information about the famine, see the Wikipedia article, Great Famine (Ireland) at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

In going over the early Bandon Catholic Parish baptisms, I found the baptism of a Florence Crowly, who may be John’s father.

“Florentium Crowly” was baptized on 1 July 1800. His father is Timothei. His mother is Margarita “Corceran,” which would be a transcription of Corcoran:

https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1101706&tab=this

A copy of the original baptism record shows the godfather is Thomas Murry. The godmother is Catherine Corcoran. See the attachment.

The possible connection here, utilizing the FAN method, is that in the 1837 baptism record, Cornelius Crowly’s godfather is Josh Corcoran. But, this is still circumstantial evidence, not direct evidence of a relationship.

THE BANDON R.C. CATHOLIC PARISH CHURCHES

I next wanted to see if I could locate a church or churches that belonged to the Brandon Catholic Parish prior to 1850, when your husband’s ancestors would have been baptized.

To do this I accessed a 6 inch to 1 mile Ordnance Survey Map of Brandon in color from the GeoHive website. The date of the map is circa 1842, the year after John Crowley was baptized and the year before Edward Crowley was baptized.

On these old Ordnance Survey Maps a Catholic church was usually labeled as an “R.C. Chapel.”

I discovered there were two R.C. Chapels in the Bandon Parish. One was the parish church located in the Town of Bandon, along what was then called Gallows Hill Street/Hill Street area, just southwest of the center of the town.

The Ordnance Survey Map is attached to this reply. The location of R.C. Chapel is indicated by the green arrow toward the lower left section of the map. Across from the chapel is the National School.

Coming up is a Google aerial view showing present-day Chapel Lane and The Green in Bandon. As far as I could determine by comparing the Ordnance Survey Map and the Google Map, the R.C. Chapel was located in this area of Bandon: https://tinyurl.com/9p48mnuy

This Google Street View shows the Chapel Street area where the church was located: https://tinyurl.com/362jm7ua

The other R.C. Chapel in the Bandon Catholic parish was located in the townland of Kilbrogan.

An Ordnance Survey Map attached to this reply shows the location of the R.C. Chapel and Burial Ground in Kilbrogan.

According to the historicgraves.com website, the Kilbrogan R.C. Chapel was constructed in 1796 and closed in 1923 because of structural concerns. For more information about the chapel and cemetery, see: https://historicgraves.com/graveyard/kilbrogan/co-klbg

The above website link also includes a list of burials in the Kilbrogan Grave Yard.

You can make out the cemetery near the former chapel in this Google Street View along Kilbrogan Street: https://tinyurl.com/34eau4sw

The National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website places the construction of the Kilbrogan Catholic Chapel circa 1780. For more information and a slide presentation about the chapel ruins and cemetery, go to: https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/20909620/kilbrogan-roman-catholic-church-kilbrogan-county-cork

THE TITHE APPLOTMENT BOOKS

To see if I could uncover any further information about a Florence Crowly Sr. in the Bandon, Cork area before 1850, I went to an Irish agricultural land record called the Tithe Applotment Books, which were compiled in the 32 counties of Ireland from 1823 to 1837.

For a comprehensive explanation of the Tithe Applotment Books, and to perform a search, go to the National Archives of Ireland website link at: https://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

Because Bandon, Cork was located in two different civil parishes, I looked for Florence in the civil parishes of Ballymodan and Kilbrogan.

I uncovered “Flor Crowley” recorded in the townland of Knockbrogan, civil parish of Kilbrogan in the Tithe Applotment index, which you can access at:

https://tinyurl.com/msx87f2u

The index shows that tithes for Knockbrogan were recorded in the year 1837, the year before Florence Crowley and Mary Burke were married.

If you click on Flor’s first or last name blue hyperlinks, you’ll be brought to a copy of the original Tithe Applotment Book page where he is recorded.

The original tithe book shows that Flor Crowley is the first person recorded on the left page. You can enlarge the page for a better view, which shows his farmland is located in the Cork Road, Knockbrogan.

There are two facing pages of the tithe book. The left page shows that Florence rented as house and garden, along with 1 rood of land.

The right page shows that the Immediate Lessor of the property may be John Wheeler, Esq. But to the right of John Wheeler’s name is the notation, “doubtful,” which may question whether he was the lessor or owner of the land that Florence had leased.

In the far right column of the right-hand page, you’ll see the number, 1¼. This means that Florence paid a tithe of 1 Shilling and ¼ Pence toward supporting the Anglican Church of Ireland, which was the established church in Ireland, much like the Church of England was the established church of England at the time.

The tithe index you saw earlier doesn’t tell you there are actually two men named Florence Crowley on the same page leasing property in Knockbrogan.

Go back to the left page of the tithe record and scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page. Next, go to the 8th person up from the bottom of the page and you’ll see Florence Crowley, who leased 3 roods of land. Just to the right of Florence’s name is the notation, “now Flor Crowley Jr.” This could mean that he took over the property from his father, Florence Crowley, who may have been the farmer recorded at the top of the tithe page.

The right page of the tithe book shows that Thos Biggs Esq is the lessor of the property farmed by Florence. The far right column on the page shows that Florence paid a tithe of 4 Shillings and 3½ Pence.

For an explanation about the division of land called Acres, Roods, and Perches, go to the Lochista website link at: https://lochista.com/understanding-acres-perches/

Linda, I don’t know if the Florence Crowleys recorded in the Tithe Applotment Books in Knockbrogan are your husband’s direct ancestors through his great great grandfather John, though it’s possible they are.

A Google Map shows that Knockbrogan is just north of Bandon Town, across the River Bandon: https://tinyurl.com/4anzukz3

If you enlarge the map you’ll see that the Cork Road t-junctions into the Macroom Road to the north and Water Street to the south. The Cork Road is where the Florence Crowleys leased their property in Knockbrogan, according to the Tithe Applotment Books noted earlier

Next is a Google Street View of yellow furze bushes and open fields along the Cork Road in Knockbrogan: https://tinyurl.com/2fx9he89

In your research have you found any references to the townland of Knockbrogan and the Cork Road, situated just north of the Bandon River and Bandon Town?

CONCLUSION

In her book, Evidence! Citation & Analysis for the Family Historian, Elizabeth Shown Mills has this to say:

“Indirect evidence is circumstantial information that requires us to supply a thought process (and perhaps other evidence) to convert its detail into a reliable conclusion.

According to genealogy’s now-classic discussion by Noel C. Stevenson… ‘Evidence is none the less effective because it is circumstantial, if it be consistent, connected, and conclusive.’

To use indirect or circumstantial evidence effectively, though, genealogists must hone their analytic skills and expand their understanding of the strengths and limits or various source materials.”

From the connections you found thus far in U.S. records that John, Florence, James, and Thomas Crowley may have come from the same parents, to the County Cork baptism records of the Crowley children you saw earlier in this reply, I think there is substantial circumstantial evidence that you have the correct family, even though ages and dates of birth of the Crowleys in the U.S. records do not match up.

The close matches that strengthen your hypothesis, are Florence and John Crowley’s approximate year of birth of 1840, compared with their baptism records in Ireland, which show that Florence was born in 1839, and John in 1841.

I don’t know if you’ll be able to advance your hypothesis any further in Ireland, being as many Irish records are now available in the U.S. online, and at no charge.

MEET AND GREET

Have you heard about the Meet and Greet program available through Ireland Reaching Out? What you do is fill out a Meet and Greet form to see if there is a local volunteer available in the area you will be visiting for the time period you’ll be in Ireland

For example if you are going to be in and around Bandon for a day or two, a volunteer knowledgeable about the area will be able to show you around Bandon so that you can walk the old streets and byways the Crowleys had walked almost 200 years ago. For example, the Gallows Hill, and Hill Street area (now Chapel Street) where the R.C. Chapel and national School were located, according to the Ordnance Survey Map.

A volunteer may not be available for the day or days you are there, but you can always find out by submitting the Ireland Reaching Out Meet and Greet form, which you can download at: IrelandXO | Meet & Greet

With Best Wishes,

Dave Boylan

P.S. Because there are 12 attachments with this reply the system cannot send them all at one. I'll send six with this reply, and the remaining six in a follow-up reply.

SOURCES

Elizabeth Shown Mills: Evidence! Citation and Analysis for the Family Historian; Genealogical Publishing Co. 1997

https://www.theoccasionalgenealogist.com: What Is a Genealogy FAN Club?

IreAtlas Townland Data Base

Find My Past

National Library of Ireland: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0017?locale=en

Wikipedia: Great Famine (Ireland)

GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Maps

Google Maps

Google Street Views

historicgraves.com: https://historicgraves.com/graveyard/kilbrogan/co-klbg

National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland

National Archives of Ireland: Tithe Applotment Books

Lochista: https://lochista.com/understanding-acres-perches/

Ireland Reaching Out: Meet and Greet

Here are the remaining six attachments.

Dave,

I cannot begin to thank you for all of your work!!! I have a lot to look at but am very familiar with Elizabeth Shown Mills and many of the concepts you discussed. I appreciate all the links. I have had a difficult time figuring out the Tithe applotment books. I too tried to figure out if there was a church in Bandon that would have been where the children were baptized. You asked if in my research whether I have found any references to the townland of Knockbrogan and the Cork Road, situated just north of the Bandon River and Bandon Town? The answer is no. I did come across the townlands when I was reading about the old churches near Bandon.

The record of Florence Sr and Mary Burk's marriage is very helpful. I had been trying to pinpoint whether James would have been their first child. The name James is prominent throughout the generations. We in fact named our youngest son James, after a brother of my husband's father. The suspected brother of Florence named a child James. I have been studying naming patterns!!!

The importance of that marriage you provided may help me further link DNA matches. I want to try and sort some of my husband's DNA matches on Ancestry and My Heritage to see if I come up with any Burk matches. I recently found a marriage record for a Thomas Crowley and a Sarah Burk hypothesizing that this Thomas may be one of the 8 children. This Thomas looks to be the father of the Annie (Crowley) McCarthy, the root person of one of my DNA clusters. The marriage took place in city of Cork. I have a DNA match that has greater amount of cM than expected. I am wondering if it is because Florence Sr. marries a Burk and his son Thomas marries a Burk? Another possible bit of circumstancial evidence for connection.

I have lots of questions for you Dave... but I will start with this one. Is there a way to learn if any of these 8 children stayed in Ireland? I am hypothesizing that James, Florence and John went to US but what about others? Possible living descendants in Ireland? I read that there is a new database of burials for the Bandon area done by the group at the Skibberreen Heritage center. I was thinking of putting some of these names of siblings in that database. I ask this because 3 years ago I worked with Margaret at the Heritage center about a proposed Florence and Mary Crowley as parents... and she informed me that the family remained in Ireland. This ruled out my hypothesis. At that time I didn't have as many matching names of siblings.

I definitely will fill out the form regarding a volunteer for a possible meet up when we are in Ireland. I am fascinated by that possibility. I have recently firmed up dates and our proposed itinerary.

I hope once I digest this I can reach out with further question.

Best regards,

Linda Crowley

Hello Linda,

Many thanks for your reply. It’s very much appreciated.

Please excuse the delay in responding but I did not receive a notification from Ireland Reaching Out that your reply had been posted until today, 13 April.

Concerning John and Florence’s brothers William (1834); Cornelius (1837); Edward (1843); and George Crowley (1846); uncovering more information about them in Irish, or possibly American records, can be a challenge.

Seven of the Crowley brothers were born before the Great Famine. George was born during the Great Famine. I don’t know if any of the four Crowley brothers mentioned above had died either before, during, or after the Great Famine in Ireland, or perhaps even in an adopted country.

I looked for the Bandon marriage transcriptions over the course of several years for the four brothers at the FMP website, but did not find them.

I also looked for their civil registration marriage records as well as death records at the free irishgenenalogy.ie website, but again without success.

While there may be civil registration marriage records for Crowleys named William, Cornelius, Edward, and George in the Cork district after 1863, I did not find any marriages showing a father named Florence, as civil registration marriage records provide the names and occupations of the fathers of the bride and groom.

The irishgenealogy.ie website includes indexes and copies of original birth and marriages from 1864. Not all death records are digitized however. Those that are not yet digitized are indexed, but indexes do not provide a lot of personal information about the deceased, except for the name and the age, as an example.

I looked for possible death indexes and death records for William, Cornelius, Edward, and George Crowley in Ireland up to the 20th century, but could not identify any. There’s always the possibility I missed finding the records.

You may want to search the marriage and death records at irishgenealogy.ie in case I missed finding a match.

The cM (centimorgan) DNA results you found looks for a promising match through Annie Crowley and her parents Thomas Crowley and Sarah Burke.

There’s an interesting article called, The Centimorgan Relationship Calculator Explained, written by Cristine Santander at the knowyourdnatesting.com website at: https://knowyourdna.com/centimorgan/

Thomas and Sarah may, or may not have been related, but Catholic priests were reluctant to marry two individuals with close blood ties without giving a Consanguinity dispensation.

For more information on consanguinity dispensations, see the article by Clarie Bradley entitled, Consanguinity Dispensations, at the cbgenealogy.ie website at: https://cbgenealogy.ie/consanguinity-dispensations/

Based on your comprehensive research, I found the 1855 marriage of Thomas Crowley and Sarah Burk at the FMP website which shows they married in St. Mary’s Church, Cork City, on 23 July 1855. A copy of the original marriage record from the National Library of Ireland is attached, and shows the witnesses to the marriage were John Burke and Bridget Driscoll. John Burke may have been Sarah’s brother.

A dispensation for the couple is not recorded, but if there was a relationship between Thomas and Sarah, the St. Mary’s priest in Cork City may not have been aware that Thomas’s mother was also a Burke, as Thomas, from circumstantial evidence, was from Bandon, about 20 miles southwest of Cork City.

At the FMP website I found the baptisms for eight of Thomas and Sarah’s children. The baptisms all took place in the St. Mary’s Cork City Catholic Parish. Some of the baptisms also record the dates of birth for the child. Three of the baptisms give the residence of the family at the time of the birth and baptism.

See below for the names and dates of baptisms and or births:

Florence “Croley,” baptized 18 January 1858

Mary, born 23 February 1859. Baptized 26 February 1859

Sarah, born 11 April 1861. Baptized 13 April 1861

George, born 2 February 1863. Baptized 3 February 1863

Catherine, born 9 November 1864. Baptized 10 November 1864

John, born 5 July 1866. Baptized 8 July 1866. Residence: Commons

Ann, born 22 May 1868. Baptized 26 May 1868. Residence: 1 Commons

Catherine, born 29 August 1873. Baptized 30 August 1873. Residence: Commons Road.

—-

There are two birth and baptism records for a Catherine Crowley. This means the first-born Catherine in 1864, had died.

Four of the children were born during civil registration. Civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations, as noted earlier, were recorded by the Irish government beginning in 1864.

I looked for the birth records for Catherine, John, Ann, and Catherine at the irishgenealogy.ie website, but only found the birth record for John.

Parents were supposed to report a birth to the local registrar, but in the early years of civil registration, births were not always reported, and so consequently, not officially recorded.

There is always the possibility I missed locating the birth records for the other three children.

Attached is a copy of the original birth record for John. The birth record differs from John’s date of birth in the St. Mary’s baptism register. St. Mary’s places his birth on 5 July 1866. The civil birth record gives his date of birth as 26 June 1866.

I don’t know which is correct, but both show the family were living in Commons, which is the Commons Road, North Cork City. North Cork City refers to the portion of the city north of the River Lee.

The upcoming Google Map shows the location of the Commons Road in North Cork City. The Irish name for the road is Bóthar an Choimín. The road is located just off the N20 road, also known as the New Mallow Road: https://tinyurl.com/25efz85a

Here is a Google Street View of the Commons Road/Bóthar an Choimín: https://tinyurl.com/4rmcy7pd

ST. MARY’S DOMINICAN CHURCH AND PRIORY

Because Annie Crowley is the root person of one of your DNA matches, I thought you might like to have information about where she and her siblings were baptized and where her parents Thomas and Sarah were married.

Thomas and Sarah were married in St. Mary’s Church. All their children were baptized in St. Mary’s as well. I believe this is St. Mary’s Dominican Church and Priory, located on the north bank of the River Lee, Pope’s Quay, Cork North.

According to Wikipedia the church opened on October 20, 1839. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary%27s_Dominican_Church_and_Priory

Here is a Google Map of the church: https://tinyurl.com/ybr5ezkz

If time permits when you are in Ireland this September, you can visit the Commons Road as well as St. Mary’s Dominican Church and Priory.

IRISH NAMING PATTERNS

As you saw earlier, the first-born child of Thomas and Sarah was Florence (1858).

You had mentioned Irish naming patterns in your reply, which means if Thomas and Sarah followed Irish naming patterns, as many, but not all Irish families did, the first-born son was named after his father’s father, that is, his grandfather.

This is an indication that Florence’s grandfather, and Thomas’s father, was Florence Crowley.

The first-born daughter, Mary, would be named after her mother’s mother, that is, her grandmother. This is an indication that Mary’s grandmother, and Sarah’s mother, was named Mary.

Linda, if there are any church or civil registration records you’d like me to look for, please don’t hesitate to ask. Also, I hope you find a volunteer with the Meet and Greet program to make your time in Ireland more informative.

Thank you again for writing.

Dave

SOURCES

FIND MY PAST

irishgenealogy.ie

Cristine Santander: The Centimorgan Relationship Calculator at https://knowyourdna.com/centimorgan/

Clarie Bradley: Consanguinity Dispensations at https://cbgenealogy.ie/consanguinity-dispensations/

National Library of Ireland

Google Maps

Google Street Views

Wikipedia

Dave,

I didn't know that you responded back. Is there away to have you email me directly? I had the pleasure to meet and listen to Claire Bradley at RootsTech in Salt Lake City in March.She is the one who told me about Ireland XO. In the last few days, I too found the marriage of Thomas and Sarah at St. Mary's in Cork City. How common was it in 1855 to have Thomas leave Bandon and marry in Cork City?

Also, through the Meet and Greet program, I have been assigned a volunteer. We have been emailing back and forth. I wasn't sure I would hear from you since the program assigned another volunteer to help me with possible living people of Crowley line in Bandon. Is it allowed to have both of you help? I am so impressed with the help from Ireland XO. I hope I can help someone from Ireland looking for US records someday.My husband and I grew up in Massachusetts. Unfortunately, when we were in the state, we were busy raising four children and I didn't have time to do a lot of research in Boston, MA. I do belong to TIARA which is a Boston Irish Research group.We have since moved south to Virginia for retirement and that is where I could help someone if need be.

Interestingly, my John Crowley born approx 1839 in Bandon (if it turns out through all the circumstantial evidence) married an Ellen Butler who presumably was from the same area, at least info about her brother's connect the Butler family to Bandon.John Crowley and Ellen Butler were married in 1872 in Boston, MA. Ellen's parents are listed on her US marriage documents as Timothy Butler and Elizabeth Canty. However, her parents' names on US death certif is James Butler and Elizabeth Canty.Her records are confusing in US with lots of different names and dates. I have yet to find her birth record.Family in Massachusetts that has been tracing the Butlers insist that it is James Butler and and Eliza Canty. She has brothers Laurence, John and Denis with parents listed as James Butler and Elizabeth Canty. But I will recheck now as I am beginning to think if her brothers were born in Bandon and her husband John may have been born in Bandon, then they knew each other before coming to US and marrying 1872. Ellen's brothers are corroborated by DNA matches/evidence and show Laurence Butler baptized in Bandon 5 Mar 1851, John Butler baptized in Bandon 22 Jun 1853, Denis baptized 16 Jun 1861 at St. Finbarr's South Parish, Cork (I believe St. Finbarr's is not too far away. I also have the connection that the female witness, of younger Florence Crowley and Margaret Sullivan married 1859, as Mary Butler!

Thank you again. Your info is leading me to re look at some things I haven't looked at in a long, long time.

Linda Crowley

Hi Linda,

Thank you gain for your reply and additional information.

It's good to hear you've mad contact with a volunteer through the Meet and Greet program.

It's OK to keep communications going between you and the Meet and Greet volunteer, and with me through Ireland Reaching Out. I've corresponded through private emails before but stopped because of losing the emails through computer crashes or accidental deletions, whereas correspondence through IrelandXO is retained and available for a long time.

I actually live in the U.S. and am not a registered volunteer with Ireland Reaching Out, but a freelance responder. In the last few years I haven't posted very many responses to queries at Ireland XO unless I see that a family historian/genealogist, such as yourself, is serious about their family research. Your research into Irish and Boston, Massachusetts records, proves that.

After reading your query dated 2 April 2025, and seeing how much research you've accomplished, I thought I would reply with some suggestions for further research into the Crowley genealogy.

My ancestors are from counties Cavan, Kerry, Limerick, and Roscommon. I've traveled extensively throughout Ireland over the course of several years, including the six counties of Northern Ireland.

I found long-lost cousins and made new friends over the years in these trips to Ireland. Driving on the left-hand side of the road in Ireland is an experience all on its own. If you haven't driven in Ireland before, and would like some tips, let me know.

Getting back to the Crowley research, this past Wednesday I uncovered the baptism records for Ellen Butler's brothers, Laurence, John, and Denis Butler, but not Ellen's baptism. In your latest post dated 17 April, I see that you too had already found the baptisms of Ellen's three brothers, more evidence of the time you've spent into your husband's Irish ancestors. If you don't have copies of the original baptisms for Laurence, John, and Denis Butler, I can send them to you in a follow-up reply.

To answer your question, "How common was it in 1855 to have Thomas leave Bandon and marry in Cork City?" It may have been common for a lot of people not long after the devastating famine, as Cork City was, and still is the second largest city in Ireland. There may have been more economic opportunity in Cork City than in Bandon.

Thomas may have gone to Cork City seeking employment. The question I have, as I'm sure you do, did Thomas know Sarah Burke before moving to Cork City and before their marriage took place? Catholic marriages took place in the bride's parish, which indicates Sarah may have lived in Cork City for some time before she and Thomas married.

Another question: was Sarah Thomas's cousin through Thomas's mother, Mary Burke? Your DNA research does prove a connection through Thomas and Sarah's daughter Annie (Crowley) McCarthy, the root person of one of your DNA clusters. Hopefully further research or DNA matches will provide you with the answer.

Speaking of research, are there any records you'd like me to look for; baptisms, church marriages, or civil births and marriages after 1863? Or, are there any 19th century maps of towns or villages in County Cork, or in any other county that I can try to locate for you?

All the Best Linda,

Dave

Dave...again thank you. At this point the more people who assist me with this research the better. I belong to a DNA sig group here in Virginia and the leader used my query as an example at the last Zoom meeting. She said that it was a possibility given the 3 clusters but needed more matches. I'm working on it. I have been taking my two tester trees and trying to add info to my main Noyes-Crowley Tree that is public on Ancestry. If you want to look at that public tree you might see something I've missed. I have taken lots of DNA classes but still struggle with some of the concepts. I am marking Dean's matches on the tree. It was suggested that I note the centimorgans on the tree too. A lot to go back and do. I also spoke with Johnny Perl at Roots Tech when I was in Salt Lake. He said one of his tools might help to confirm if I have the correct parents, Florence Crowley b. approx 1800 and Mary Burke, given the DNA of 3 clusters but for the life of me I haven't been able to get the hang of using one of his tools. I shine when it comes to the FAN method and I have used a centimorgan chart to plot my husband's matches to make sure the amounts lined up as expected. Are you familiar with analyzing DNA matches and if so would you be willing to take a look? Or suggestions. The DNA sig person said it might be worth upgrading my husbands Y37 but he didn't have any matches to speak of at that level. Besides it is very expensive. Not sure if it would give more value.

As far as records, I went back and pulled some notes from long ago and realized I had the original baptism records for Ellen Butlers brothers: Laurence, John and Denis. One of Dean's matches had family documents that stated John Butler had a sister Ellen who went to America and married a Crowley. He also said that Ellen married someone that owned a silk mill. Our Crowleys never owned anything! He also said family lore mentioned a Crowley becoming a priest in Boston. It wasn't until recently that I discovered that those records of at least Laurence and John were from Bandon. I think Denis was St. Finbarr's South Parish if I remember correctly. The question is... if I am on the correct track of John being from Bandon, the fact that he married Ellen Butler from Bandon strengthens the circumstantial evidence that Bandon is the place to be. The reason I dismissed her father as the same as the 3 boys was that on John and Ellen's marriage record it states her parents were Timothy and Mary and the boy's parents were James Crowley and Elizabeth Canty. However, on Ellen's death certificate it says her parents were James Crowley and Elizabeth Canty. Not finding a baptism for Ellen is also troublesome. I spent 3 hours last night going one by one in parish records for Bandon and part of St Finbarr's. Ugh. The transcriptions are horrible on all platforms.

I don't know at this point where I need the most help. I guess plugging away at FAN club connections as this has helped. When John and Ellen were married, the two witnesses at the church were a Daniel Crowley and Maria Griffin. At the baptism of their son Florence in 1877, the sponsors are James Crowley and Catherine Crowley. Wondering if either are relations? Is the James Crowley, John's brother who was possibly born in Bandon in 1829? Did James marry a Catherine in Bandon or US?

Also, on the 1880 US census, where I find Ellen as a widow with 5 living children....the oldest child is listed as Bridget, 9 years old in 1880. This would make her possibly born prior to their marriage in 1872. I have never found a baptism or birth record for Bridget Crowley. When you look at the naming patterns of the rest of the brood, they match what you would almost expect but I would think first born daughter would be Mary, not Bridget (the 1st child being named after Father's mother would work). I've search for Mary Crowley and Bridget Crowley in US and Ireland with parents John Crowley and Ellen Butler without success. Probably need to do again. It would mean looking for a Bridget or Mary Crowley, with parents John Crowley and Ellen Butler, born approx 1871-1872 and possibly dying in Boston 1874-1875. I say dying in 1874-1875 as they name another daughter Mary. Maybe Bridget isn't their daughter.

My naming pattern analysis: Next child born was a son named Florence 1873-1873 (named after John's father Florence), third child was Elizabeth 1874-1927 (named after the Ellen's mother Elizabeth Canty), 4th child Mary 1875-1898 (if Bridget was actually named Mary and died before 1875, they may have name another girl Mary after John's mother), 5th child is Florence 1877-1877 (because the first child Florence died), 6th child is John 1878-1945 (named after the Father and my husband's grandfather), 7th child Ellen 1879-1882 (named after Ellen the mother). I think I've got the Irish naming pattern correct: 1st son after father's father, 2nd son after mother's father (no James found), 3rd son after the father; 1st daughter after Father's mother, 2nd daughter after mother's mother, 3rd daughter after mother. I'm only missing a James and can't account for Bridget.

Another avenue is when did John and Ellen leave Ireland? Not sure that would help me with what to see in Ireland but what IF they came over with someone that I've identified from Bandon? I just got a reminder from a "cousin" researching the Butlers that years ago we looked at a ship record. Need to find and reexamine. 3-14-1872, Ellen Butler, age 26, servant, from Ireland arrives in Boston on the Steamship Tripol(e). Just a few months later, on June 23, 1872, Ellen Butler, 24, married John Crowley in Holy Cross Church, Boston, MA (V. 9, p. 420, 1856-1876) Wondering if this ship record is for my Ellen?

From the 1900 Census for 3 of the children of Florence Crowley and Margaret Sullivan I have immigration dates. Mary J the oldest list 1866, sister Anna or Johanna lists 1868 and brother Timothy list 1868. They were in the 1861 census of Wales and probably came from Liverpool either directly to Boston or New York. The family is here is 1870. They actually own a home at 297 Bolton Street in Boston in 1880. This is the house where John and Ellen list as residences during tough times. One is at the birth & death of their 2nd son named Florence in 1877. The father dies 5 Nov 1879 and daughter dies 14 Nov 1879, 9 days after dad dies.

This is a long laundry list. I am open to suggestions.

Linda

Hi Linda,

I'm not sure I have any further suggestions other than to keep on doing what your doing with your research into Irish and American vital records, and DNA analysis. After going over all replies to IrelandXO and looking at your Noyes-Crowley Tree at Ancestry, I don't believe I've come across any family historian on the Ireland Reaching Out message board over the years who has done as much comprehensives genealogical research as you have.

With all your experience and knowledge, have you ever considered (if and when time permits) teaching an Irish-American genealogy course at your nearby community college? Or in an adult education course? Your personal experience with DNA applied to genealogical research would be an invaluable resource for people who are in search of their Irish roots, even though you may have some challenges about the concepts of DNA. You are far ahead of me with DNA, as I've never utilized it in my own research which took place before anything genealogical was online, or before there was even an internet. My time was spent with hours and hours of letter writing to people in the States and Ireland, and in front of microfilm readers at a local Family History Center, scrolling through microfilms of Irish and American records. The ships' passenger lists were especially tedious and eye straining, gaining little results, as the ships' list, at least in the 19th century, rarely tell where a person came from in Ireland. A person's age in the passenger lists were also inaccurate at times

After receiving your latest reply, I doubled down on efforts to find Ellen Butler's baptism in Bandon and St. Finbar's, Cork Catholic parishes, as well as other County Cork parishes, but again without success. Her baptism record may be so illegible that it is impossible to decipher, given how bad some of the handwriting is in the baptism registers.

If there are some Irish records you haven't gotten to, but would like some assistance with, please let me know, as this will free you up to do other research.

Also, please let me know if you uncover any new information about the Crowley, Burke, and Butler lines, either through vital records or DNA results. Thanks Linda.

With Kind Regards,

Dave.

Dave,

I had a thought. Let me know if you think this would be worth the effort. My younger Florence - age 22 (possible brother to my John) and wife Margaret Sullivan - age 19, show up in the 1861 census of Wales and are living with, what appear to be, members of Margaret's family: Hannoa Sullivan - head age 45, Tim Sullivan - age 21, John Sullivan - age 14. In the 1880 census of Boston, Hanora Sullivan - age 63 appears again and confirms that she is Margaret's mother. I know from the Massachusetts death record for Margaret 1880 that her parents are Laurence and Hanora Sullivan. I also know Margaret Sullivan and Florence were married in Bandon 18 Jan 1859 and the witnesses are Florence Crowley and Mary Butler (possibly Florence's parents??). If I follow the Sullivan's maybe it will lead to another connection??? In the case of my husband's great-grandfather John, he marries Ellen Butler in US 1872, but it looks like she lives in an area of Knockbrogan close by each other. Maybe that is the case with Sullivans and Crowleys? What do you think?

Linda

Hi Linda,

I think it is worth the effort. If this were my genealogy I too would research the Sullivan line to see if it leads to a connection. If it doesn't, you can move on to other research that may prove a connection.

I'm recommending this as I found evidence of Sullivans, Butlers, and Crowleys, all leasing houses in Knockbrogan, Bandon. This information comes from an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation, which was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland from 1847 to 1864. The valuation for Knockbrogan and surrounding towns and parishes was completed by the year 1851.

You can search Griffiths Valuation at the Ask About Ireland website link: https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

I've attached pages of Griffiths Valuation for Knockbrogan, Bandon. The first page shows that John Sullivan leased a house and yard in 7 High Street from an Immediate Lessor named Cornelius Kehily. The house and yard that John Sullivan leased was valued at 10 Shillings for tax purposes.

At 19 High Street, Knockbrogan, James Butler also leased a house and yard from Cornelius Kehily, valued at 10 Shillings for tax purposes.

On the second Griffiths Valuation attachment page, you'll see that Mary Crowley leased a house in 24 Kehily's Lane from Cornelius Kehily. The house was valued at 10 Shillings.

If a property recorded in Griffiths Valuation had been valued under 5 Pounds, leaseholders like John Sullivan, James Butler, and Mary Crowley were not responsible for paying the tax. The owner of the property paid the tax.

I looked for High Street and Kehily's Lane on a Google Map of Bandon, but could not locate them. They may have different names today, but I believe they were not far from today's Old Cork Road and Watergate Street, which flows just north of the Bandon River.

Speaking of which, Griffiths Valuation shows a John Burke leasing a house and yard from Robert Wheeler, Esq., at 49 (Old) Cork Road, Knockbrogan; and a John Burke leasing a house and yard from Cornelius Kehily at 6 Kehily's Lane, Knockbrogan, not far from Mary Crowley at 24 Kehily's lane. The two John Burkes may refer to the same person leasing two different properties in Knockbrogan.

See the Griffiths Valuation attachments for John Burke.

I also found that a William McCarthy and a Timothy McCarthy leased houses in Knockbrogan; William at 9 Water Gate Street, and Timothy at 5 Wheelers Lane. Could William and Timothy be older relatives to the John McCarthy who married Annie Crowley in Boston, in 1892? I can send you the Griffiths Valuation entries for William and Timothy McCarthy in a follow-up reply if you'd like.

I next looked for, but didn't find any Cantys recorded in Griffiths Valuation for Knockbrogan. This is not saying that there were no Cantys in Knockbrogan in the 1850s. If a person did not pay for a lease, they were not recorded like they would be in a census.

I think the Sullivan, Burke, Crowley and McCarthy surnames in Griffiths Valuation for Knockbrogan, are an example of the FAN method which you and I have both utilized in our genealogical research.

What do you think?

Thank you Linda,

Dave

Dave,

You use Griffiths like an expert! I have not had experience using Griffiths Books. I need to do some studying on it. Your links are invaluable. Yes, it would be great if you could send the information of the McCarthy's from Griffiths. I suspect again that Annie Crowley knew John McCarthy before marrying in the US.

I have been so focused on the Crowleys that it is not until recently that I started looking back at old notes thinking maybe Ellen and John knew each other before coming to US. I wish I had put every note somewhere on Ancestry early on. I'm curious who you might think John Sullivan may be? I didn't have luck finding birth documents for Margaret's brothers Timothy b. 1840 and John b. 1847 that were on the 1861 Wales census with Honora Sullivan, Florence Crowley, Margaret Sullivan.

Thank you again.

Linda

Hi Linda,

It's impossible to tell, just from Griffiths Valuation, if John Sullivan was related to Honora Sullivan and her children Margaret, Timothy, and John. I just don't have enough information about him to make a determination. It's John Sullivan's residence in Knockbrogan that puts it in the realm of circumstantial evidence that he and Honora and her children were all related. But, there's also the possibility they were not related, as the surname Sullivan was one of the most popular names in Ireland in the 19th century, right up there with Murphy.

Concerning Griffiths Valuation, though I've been researching Griffiths Valuation and Griffiths Valuation Maps for several years, I'm not an expert at it, but like to make people aware of Griffiths as a tool for Irish genealogical research.

Just to give a little more basic information about Griffiths Valuation:

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not record members of a household, but only those who owned or leased property, or who acted as a middle man for the owner of the property. The person who leased the property was called an, "Occupier." The person who owned the property, or was the middleman for the owner looking after the property, was called the, "Immediate Lessor." To the left of each person's name in a Griffiths Valuation entry are numbers of letters. These refer to the location of the particular property on a Griffiths Valuation Map, which is also available to download from the Ask About Ireland website. These maps, because of all the numbers and letters, can be a challenge in locating where a particular owner's or occupier's house was located in a particular townland.

There's a little more to Griffiths Valuation than described above, such as "agnomens," Latin for "other names," and "Offices," which are outbuildings, but I didn't find any agnomens or Offices in the Griffiths entries you are interested in.

In Griffiths you'll also see land measures of Acres, Roods, and Perches, which are explained at the Lochista website: https://lochista.com/understanding-acres-perches/

WILLIAM MCCARTHY IN GRIFFITHS VALUATION

William McCarthy leased a house from an Immediate Lessor named Henry Lee in Knockbrogan, Town of Bandon, at Map Reference 9, Water Gate-Street. William did not lease any land, garden, yard, or office (out building). The house was valued at 1 Pound and 10 Shillings. See the attachment.

TIMOTHY MCCARTHY IN GRIFFITHS VALUATION

Timothy leased a house, yard, and garden from an Immediate Lessor named Eliza Baldwin in Wheeler's Lane, Knockbrogan, Map Reference 5. The yard and garden were 11 Perches in size, and valued at 4 Shillings. The house was valued at 16 Shillings, for a total valuation of 1 Pound.

I found Water-Gate Street on the Griffiths Valuation Map of Knockbrogan, Bandon, but not house 9. Unfortunately I couldn't locate Wheeler's Lane in Knockbrogn.

The Griffiths Valuation Map is attached. The green arrow is pointing north at Water-Gate Street. The other green arrow on the left of the map is pointing toward the Old Cork Road.

Just a little while ago, after finding William and Timothy McCarthy in Griffiths Valuation, I found two entries for a Peter Crowley in Knockbrogan, and one entry for a Margaret Crowley in Knockbrogan.

THE FIRST ENTRY FOR PETER CROWLEY IN GRIFFITHS VALUATION.

The attached Griffiths Valuation for Peter shows he leased a house and garden from an Immediate Lessor named Henry Belcher, Esq., Map Reference 2, subdivision letter o. The garden was big at 1 Acre, 0 Roods, and 0 Perches in size, and valued at 2 Pounds. The house was valued at 1 Pound. The total valuation for Peter's lease was 3 Pounds.

PETER CROWLEY AND MARGARET CROWLEY IN GRIFFITHS VALUATION

The attachment shows Peter Crowley's lease at Map Reference 11, Knockbrogan, where he leased 2 Acres, 1 Rood, and 32 Perches of land from an Immediate Lessor named William Bernard. The land was valued at 3 Pounds, which is the total valuation for the property. I believe the Peter Crowley at Map Reference 2, subdivision letter o, Knockbrogan, and at Map Reference 11, Knockbrogan, are the same person.

Map Reference 20 A B, subdivision c, shows that Margaret Crowley leased a house only, from an Immediate Lessor named James Splain. The house was valued at 15 Shillings, which is the total valuation for her leasehold.

Because there are so many duplicate Map reference numbers and letters on the Griffiths Valuation Map for Knockbrogan, I couldn't identify with certainty where Peter's or Margaret's leases were located. The Valuation Office in Dublin may be able to help you locate their leases in Knockbrogan. You can contact the Valuation Office by email and ask if they can help you find the leases on the Griffiths Valuation Map for Knockbrogan. I'm not sure if they will be able to help you online, or if you would have to visit the Valuation Office in person to go over copies of the Valuation Map for Knockbrogan.

The Valuation Office also has copies of what are called "Revision Books." The Revision Books document when a person left a property and when another person took over the property. This information can be especially helpful for a genealogist to determine when an ancestor might have moved to another location in the county, or another Irish county, or had emigrated to another country.

I believe the Revision Books are being digitized, but are not online for research yet. You can order Revision Book entries from the Valuation Office for a price.

The following links provides contact details and more information about the Valuation Office, and revision books:

https://tailte.ie/archive-research/visit-valarchive/

https://timeline.ie/revision-books/ and

https://timeline.ie/finding-your-irish-roots/the-valuation-office/

The address for the Valuation Office in Dublin City is:

Valuation Office

Block 2, Irish Life Centre, Abbey Street Lower,

Dublin 1, D01 E9X0, Ireland

----

If you plan to Dublin when you travel to Ireland his September, you can first submit a query and also book an appointment with the Valuation Office from this link: https://tailte.ie/contact-us/

In your extensive research Linda have you come across reference to Peter and Margaret Crowley in Knockbrogan? They were probably related, but I don't know how, or if they were related to your husband's John Crowley.

I hope the information about Griffiths Valuation isn't too confusing.

Dave

SOURCES

Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation and Valuation Maps

Lochista: https://lochista.com/understanding-acres-perches/

Valuation Office: https://tailte.ie/archive-research/visit-valarchive/

Hi Dave,

Some more studying on my part. I attended a class at Roots Tech on just this very thing but someone in the class had a medical emergency and the class ended abruptly. Sometimes I have to review several times. I think Legacy Webinar has some videos on this. I knew about them but didn't think I was ready to delve in. I think I am now!

As far as a Peter and Margaret Crowley... I haven't come across those names. Our US Crowley families are full of Florence, James, Timothy, Thomas, John and George. My husband's father was the first Joseph as previously it was used a lot as middle name or probably confirmation name. I was not raised Catholic so all of the sacraments can add info for my genealogy.

Thank you again. I don't usually put this on a public message board but this trip is important. My husband had a kidney transplant in 2023 and the donor was our oldest son. I just learned tonight that he will be able to join us for some of our trip. This trip is special as my husband is now able to travel. I don't usually share but living organ donation is very special... difficult for a mom, I should add!

This week I was in touch with one of my husband's distant DNA matches that will be attending the Crowley Clan Gathering with us in Skibberean. He has his Crowley family traced to Enniskeane, Ireland. He has a Crowley marrying a Sullivan at the 3rd great grandparent level. From looking at a map, Enniskeane looks to be about 20 min from Knockbrogan.

I am plugging away at Parish registers but get the feeling that as I approach the early 1800s, they are less complete.

My Best,

Linda Crowley

Linda, That's very good news that your husband will be able to travel to Ireland after what he's been through, not to mention what you've been through for the past few years. I think the trip will be an exciting time for you both, and I hope you have a little spare time to travel in western County Cork, as the views are spectacular, especially along the coast. Also, please let me know if someone from Meet and Greet will be able to connect with you in Ireland, as that will make your time there even more special. In the meantime if there are any records you'd like me to look for, please don't hesitate to ask.

All the Best,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I have been in touch with a Butler cousin of my husbands.  We had not been corresponding since 2017.  He had a lot of insight into the Butler - Crowley connection.  He hasn't found a baptism for Ellen Butler either.  He did say that James Butler and Elizabeth Canty had a fifth child.  In family lore, she became Lady Raecraft of Mount Rivers.  Dean's cousin, has never been able to find her birth name or record.  His grandmother was named after this Lady Raecraft, ie Elizabeth Marion Raecraft Butler.  

If you remember, Ellen had brothers Laurence, John and Dennis (plus a possible fifth sister).  Dean's cousin is descended from John Butler.  The family moves from Bandon to Cork City just before the birth of Dennis.  He is the sibling bapt at St Finbarr's Cathedral, in Cork City, South Parish.  Interestingly, John Butler, son of James Butler and Elizabeth Canty, marries a Margaret McCarthy in St. Patrick's Church 9 Sept 1876.  John was an ostler for a hotel and resided on Elm Grove.  The couple first live at 6 Stream Hill, Cork City and then move to 10 Stream Hill where John and Margaret, and family, live with John's parents James and Elizabeth.  James died 1880 and Elizabeth Canty Butler died 1885.  If you remember, you couldn't find any Canty's but Elizabeth Canty, according to Dean's cousin, was baptized 4 Aug 1827 in St. Finbarr's Cathedral, Cork City, daughter of Denis Canty and Eliza Neil.  I haven't located the record yet.  

Here is the connection.... John Butler  and Margaret McCarthy have a son James bapt 4 Oct 1883 at St. Patrick's Church in Cork City.  The sponsors are a GEORGE Crowley and Mary Foley.  I believe this George is one of the brothers to my John Crowley, son of Florence Crowley and Mary Burke.  The name George is not common in our line but is a common name in the other DNA Cluster descending from Annie Crowley (daughter of Thomas, brother of John).  If you remember, Annie Crowley marries a John McCarthy in Boston.  Now I wonder if John McCarthy is related to Margaret McCarthy?  I have in US records that John McCarthy was John Joseph McCarthy and was born in Ireland between 1865-1868.  His father is listed on his death certificate as John McCarthy.  Margaret McCarthy was born in Lissanly townland just outside of Cloyne town.  Lissanly was in Aghada Parish in 1854 but after was listed in Cloyne Parish.  I am going to ask Dean's cousin if he knows who her parents were.  It might be a reach to think the two McCarthys are related.

You asked if I needed help finding records... well another DNA cousin of Dean's found a Florence Crowley in the 1901 Irish Census that was from Knockbrogan.  I am wondering if there is any sense to looking at 1901 census records?  I have never done that.

On another note, I made an appt to go to the Valuation office in Dublin but it will be on the last day of our trip.  I guess if I find anything at that point, I will need to go back to Ireland!  You mentioned that you had tips regarding rental cars.  I have one reserved in Dublin for our trip but have done a lot of reading and it is confusing.  Insurance, GPS, etc    Also, I am wondering if Ellen could have been Elizabeth instead of Ellen since her mother's mother was supposedly Eliza Neil or maybe that is the name of the fifth child?  It also seems strange that James Butler and Elizabeth Canty named there last son Dennis.  If the order is Laurence, Ellen, John, Dennis, fifth daughter? There is speculation that James Butler was born in May of 1815 in Kilbrittain, Bandon, son of James Butler and ? Joona Crowly...but not certain.

Thanks for all your help.  I wish there were more hours in the day to do research.

Linda 

Hi Linda,

I think it is worth looking at Irish census records, especially for ancestors or collateral lines who may have lived in the early 1900s. You may not find any connections you are looking for in the long run, but if you have enough time I recommend accessing the 1901 and 1911 census search form at the following National Archives of Ireland link: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

The 1901 and 1911 census records are the only full census records available for all of Ireland thus far. There are earlier 19th century census records for select counties, but most of the earlier census records have been destroyed.

You had mentioned that a cousin found a Florence Crowley in the 1901 census living in Knockbrogan. I couldn’t locate a Florence Crowley in Knockbrogan in the 1901 census, but did find a 50 year old Florence Crowley in Kilbrogan Street, Bandon, as you can see here:

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Bandon/Kilbrogan_Street/1088924/

Once the census downloads, click on the box “Show all information,” to view the full census. As you can see this Florence Crowley is a 50 year old Bachelor. He is the only one in the household. The census further shows he was Roman Catholic and Employed as a “Labourer,” who was not able to read.

The census shows he was the resident of a house 6 in Kilbrogan Street. House 6 is not necessarily the house number, but the number on the census form where Florence is recorded.

You can see this in a copy of the original census at: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000491809/

At  the top of the census, below and to the right of the year 1901, you’ll see the notation, “No. on Form B. 6”

If you scroll down to the bottom right of the original census, you’ll see that Florence signed the census with “his x mark,” signifying he could not write either.

To the left of Florence’s name is the census enumerator who witnessed Florence making his mark x. The enumerator is a police constable named Sgt Michl Collins.

With further research I found other Crowley residents of Kilbrogan Street living not far from Florence. You can see all the residents in Kilbrogan Street here: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Bandon/Kilbrogan_Street/

This shows there were Crowleys recorded in house 3, house 9, and house 12.1. If you click on the blue hyperlink, “occupants” for each of these Crowleys, you see the full census for each individual or family recorded in the 1901 census in Kilbrogan Street.

Florence is no longer living in Kilbrogan Street in the 1911 census. He may have moved or he may have been deceased by 1911. Here is an index for the Crowleys living in Kilbrogan Street in the 1911 census: https://tinyurl.com/44bmr23h

I looked for Florence in other Bandon, Cork locations in the 1911 census, but didn’t find him. This is an indication he had died between 1901 and 1911.

One thing to be aware of when looking at people in the 1901 and 1911 census enumerations: Their ages are not always accurate. In some cases ages are off by a few years, in other cases off by several years. 

I believe I uncovered Florence Crowley’s death record at the irishgenealogy.ie website. He died on 9 April 1901 in “Kilbrogan,” which may be a reference to Kilbrogan Street. At the time of death he was a 60 year old Bachelor employed as a “labourer.” The cause of death was “bronchitis chronic.” The death record also shows he had no medical attendant assisting him when he died. See: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05526/4548824.pdf

Florence Crowley’s death is number 298 in the registers.

Just above Florence’s death record  you’ll see the death record for Mary Crowley, (number 298), a 50 year old Spinster who had been living in Kilbrogan Hill. She died on 7 April 1907. Her occupation had been “servant.” The cause of death was, “pneumonia 6 days.” 

The informant who reported the deaths of Florence Crowley and Mary Crowley to the Bandon District registrar, was Minnie Sweeney, living in Convent Hill, Bandon. She may have been related to Florence and Mary, or she may have been a mutual friend of theirs.

As you can see from the above information, a 1901 or 1911 census can tell you a lot about a person or a family in a household residence, and may also lead you to other records, such as death records, or even birth and marriage records.

You’ll also notice I’ve used the old National Archives 1901 and 1911 census search engines, rather than the newer search engines at: https://nationalarchives.ie/collections/search-the-census/

This is because I’ve been using the old 1901 and 1911 census search engines for many years and am not accustomed to the newer version, which came online in February of this year.

In your reply you had mentioned there was. “speculation that James Butler was born in May of 1815 in Kilbrittain, Bandon, son of James Butler and ? Joona Crowly...but not certain.”

This is no longer speculation as the FMP website shows a transcription for James Butler, baptized on ? May, 1815, in the Kilbrittain, Cork, Catholic Parish. His father is “Jams” Butler. His mother is Joana “Crowly.” See the transcription at:https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F1150960&tab=this

 A copy of the original baptism is attached to this reply, indicated by the green arrow. Because of the handwriting and abbreviations, it took a minute to decipher the record.

The original states this:

Jams of Do. Butler Joan Crowly s. Tern? Suln Ellen Do. H? Foley

Translation: 

James of Ditto Butler, meaning James is also the first name of the child's father. 

The child's mother is Joana Crowly. 

Following her name is the small letter s., which is the abbreviation for "sponsors," or godparents. The first name of the godfather looks like Tern, which may be an abbreviation for Terrence. His last name "Suln," is probably for Sullivan. 

The godmother is Ellen Do., meaning Ditto the last name of Sullivan. So the godparents look like Terrence Sullivan and Ellen Sullivan. 

The last name of the priest who baptized James is Foley. I couldn't determine what his first name was.

According to the National Library of Ireland website, baptisms and marriages for the Kilbrittain Catholic Parish go back to August of 1810, though there are gaps in the registers. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0064?locale=en

I looked for the baptisms of any more children of James Butler and Joanna Crowley, but didn't find any more recorded in the Kilbrittain Catholic Parish, or any of the nearby parishes.

I also looked for, but didn't find the marriage record for James and Joanna. 

Concerning driving in Ireland: I don’t recommend driving in Dublin City at all. The traffic in the city can be overwhelming, especially for people who are not used to driving on the left-hand side of the road. 

I drove in Dublin City at least twice, but anytime I visited the city after that, I never drove a car in Dublin City again. It was just too much of a bother, though at that time, cars didn’t have GPS systems as standard equipment.

What I recommend is booking your car for your last day in Dublin. In the meantime, take public transportation. There  are plenty of taxis, buses, and the DART, which is the train system called the Dublin Area Rapid Transit system. For more information on the DART, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Area_Rapid_Transit

I think most rental cars today have GPS, but if you rent a car with GPS, make sure you ask the attendant to go show you how to use it. I recommend a car with GPS, otherwise, you may have to stop every now and then to look at a road map to get where you want to go. 

You’ll also want to ask about all the controls inside the car, such as the location of the lights, the wipers, and the gas tank door latch. I remember one time I rented a car from Shannon Airport, and it took me two days to locate the gas tank door latch below the console. 

Gas, or petrol, is very expensive in Ireland. It goes by litres rather than gallons. 

The GlobalPetroPrices.com  website shows that petrol is 1.71 Euros per litre, which equals $1.91 in U.S. dollars. However, there are 3.785412 litres to a gallon. If my math is correct, you’ll be paying the equivalent of $7 plus for a gallon of petrol. This is another reason not to drive in Dublin City, as stop-and-go city driving eats up a lot of gas.  

Whether to purchase insurance or not can be confusing when renting a car in Ireland. There is a guide I recommend you download for tips on car rentals in Ireland, called, “Renting a Car in Ireland: An Irishman’s 2025 Guide, by Keith O'Hara.” This guide was updated just last month. See: https://www.theirishroadtrip.com/renting-a-car-in-ireland/

When you have time, go through the whole guide, as it has a lot of useful information about rental cars in Ireland.

Also check with your credit card company to see if they cover insurance for car rentals in Ireland.

The first few times I rented a car at Shannon Airport, I asked the rental car attendant if I could drive around the parking lot for a while, just to get used to sitting in the driver’s seat, which in the U.S., is the passenger’s seat. 

Also, in the U.S, the fast lane on a divided 2, 3, or 4 lane highway is the left lane. In Ireland the right lane is the fast lane. Divided highways in Ireland are called, “Dual Carriage Ways.” 

One thing I’ve learned from experience with car rentals in Ireland is that on your last night, stay at a B&B or a hotel as close to the airport as possible to drop your car off the next day.

One time I was staying at a B&B in Newmarket-on-Fergus, which is about 6 and a half miles north of Shannon Airport, County Clare. On the way to the airport to drop the car off , and to catch my flight back to the U.S., the timing belt snapped about halfway to the airport. Once the timing belt snaps, the car comes to a stop and cannot be started again. The car stopped so suddenly that half of it was still out in  the roadway. 

Luckily, there was a house nearby. The owner allowed me to use his phone to call the car rental company so that company employees could get the car off the road, and get me to the airport in time to catch my flight.

If I had been going to the airport from my cousin’s house 40 miles away in Nenagh, County Tipperary, I would probably have never made it to Shannon Airport on time to catch my flight after the timing belt snapped. 

Many cars today have timing chains, rather than timing belts. Chains last longer than the belts do, but you’ll still want to be close to the airport on your last night, in case an emergency arises on your way to the airport to drop off your car.

Also, when returning the car, make sure you have as much gas in the car that the car came with when you picked it up. I usually just fill up the tank before turning the car in. Failure to top off the tank may result in additional costs by the rental car company.

On another note about renting a car in Ireland: One year I flew into Shannon Airport. After getting off the plane I went to the car rental kiosk to pick up the car. The man behind the counter asked if I wanted to save over $100 a week for the car rental. I asked how. He said I’ll put you in a rental with a stick shift (standard shift), rather than an automatic.  I said, “I’ll take it,” as I enjoy stick shift driving. More importantly, I could put the money saved toward buying expensive petrol during the trip. 

The challenge however with a standard shift in Ireland if you’re right-handed, is that the driver’s seat is on the right side of the car, rather than on the left. I’m right handed, and so it took a little time to coordinate shifting, with depressing the clutch pedal for a smooth ride. 

Renting a car on your last day in Dublin is the way to go, I think, especially if you want to save money on gasoline, and to also avoid the traffic on the busy Dublin City Streets. 

If you are going into the countryside in Ireland, you are likely to encounter very narrow roads, some of which can barely fit two cars going in opposite directions. These narrow roads are called boreens. On a narrow road, I’ll fold in the side mirrors so that a car coming by me from the opposite direction, doesn’t slice the mirrors off the car. 

Before getting back on regular surface roads in Ireland, make sure you unfold the mirrors for safety so you can see traffic behind you..

Thank you for writing Linda,

Dave

SOURCES

National Archives of Ireland: 1901 and 1911 Census

Find My Past

irishgenealogy.ie

National Library of Ireland 

Dublin Area Rapid Transit 

GlobalPetroPrices.com

Renting a Car in Ireland: An Irishman’s 2025 Guide, by Keith O'Hara

Dave,

I never got a notice that you replied.  Sorry this acknowledgement is so late.  As always, your post was invaluable.  I have been trying to use the new National Archives site to look  at Census records for brothers of my John Crowley.  I thought that maybe some of them stayed in Ireland (George, Edward, etc).  No luck so far.  I am going to switch to the Butlers next.

The driving tips and reference are great.  We actually are landing in Dublin, and then making our way south towards Bandon (where hopefully our reaching out volunteer will be able to show us around) and then over to Skibberean for the Crowley Clan Gathering.  After the gathering we are making our way north along the Wild Atlantic Way, going as far as Galway.  After Galway, we are dropping the car off at airport and will go into Dublin for 3 days.  We were NOT planning on taking a car into the city and were going to walk and use public transportation.  Your tips gives me more ideas and things to research.  Even though my husband and I can drive a stick shift, we reserved an automatic.  I did it in advance knowing I could change/cancel if I found something else.  I have heard horror stories about cars breaking down on the way to airport.  We want to avoid that! 

My research is never done but I feel a little relief that several people such as, you, the reaching out volunteer and a cousin agree that I'm finally on the correct tract.  Later in the summer, I am going to switch over to my husband's grandmother Mary Gertrude Ellen McGrath that was born in Canada, but her grandfather Dennis McGrath, was born in Ireland in approx 1803.

Thank you again.  Enjoy the start of summer with Memorial Day Weekend!

Linda

Hi Linda,

Thank you for writing. You have a great itinerary for your stay Ireland.

Dublin is a fantastic city with lots to offer. If during your time in Dublin, you'd like to get away from the noise and the crowds for an hour or two, you couldn't do better than to visit the Garden of Remembrance, north of the City Centre across the Liffey, up O'Connell Street Upper, past the GPO, to Parnell Square East: 

https://heritageireland.ie/places-to-visit/garden-of-remembrance/ 

https://tinyurl.com/4xc3k6x4

Your trip to west Cork and the Wild Atlantic Way is going to be an unforgettable experience. This part of Ireland has some of the most scenic vistas the country has to offer. Mary Black sings about western Ireland in her beautiful rendition of "Song For Ireland," which you can hear with accompanying lyrics at: https://youtu.be/cAfkxogf778

Thank you again for writing Linda.

Have a safe Memorial Day weekend.

Dave

Dave,

I went back and looked at the Tithe Aplotment book for Flor or Florence Crowley that you reference early in our conversation.  It says that it was recorded in 1827 not 1837?  “Flor Crowley” recorded in the townland of Knockbrogan, civil parish of Kilbrogan in the Tithe Applotment index

https://tinyurl.com/msx87f2u

Interestingly, someone online found "snippets of estate correspondence"...........source: http://www.bandon-genealogy.com/bandon_devonshire_estate... Jonas Tanner married in Bandon 1832.  It states that Florence Crowley surrendered his farm in 1830.  So if I am understanding this correctly, he is recorded first in 1827 then losing the farm in 1830.  I am wondering how to find out where he went. I have 7 of his boys baptised after 1830 in Bandon.  Would it be the Valuation office in Dublin where I would trace where he went?  Or does the Tithe Applotment  refer to later than 1827?

I need help understanding so I know where he and family may have resided during the years of having their children.

My best,

Linda

Hi Linda,

Thank you for the correction on the year of the Tithe Applotment Books, 1827 rather than 1837, for Flor/Florence Crowley in the townland of Knockbrogan, civil parish of Kilbrogan. 

There are similar land and property records from the same time period as the Tithe Applotment Books that are available to search online from the National Archives of Ireland. Some of these records also extend into the time period of Griffiths Valuation, 1847 to 1864.

These records are what are known as Valuation Office Books, spanning the years from the 1830s to the mid-1850s. Among these are:

Valuation Office Field Books:  1830 - mid-1850s

Valuation Office House Books:  1833 - mid-1850s 

Valuation Office Tenure Books: 1846 - 1858

Valuation Office Quarto Books: 1839 - 1851

----

You can read more about these records at the National Archives of Ireland link at: https://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/home.jsp

See the "General Note" link for more information. You can also search all four Valuation Office Books at the above link. 

I looked for Florence Crowley in Knockbrogan in the Field, House, Tenure, and Quarto Books, but didn't find him during any year.

Here are the Crowleys in Knockbrogan, mainly in the House Books, dated 1848 ad 1849: https://tinyurl.com/ydrbbu4v

I looked for anyone named Florence Crowley in County Cork in all four books, in all Cork parishes and townlands. There are six pages of records concerning leaseholders named Florence Crowley in various townlands and civil parishes, mainly in the Field, Tenure, and House Books, compiled in the late 1840s and early 1850s: https://tinyurl.com/2rpw9v4c

I also uncovered a House Book entry for a "Flor" Crowley in the townland of Madore, Civil parish of Caheragh: https://tinyurl.com/2s4ed7sv

Because an alternative spelling for Crowley is "Crowly," I looked for the Crowly surname spelling in the Civil Parish of Kilbrogan, and found two entries. One of these is for Peggy Crowly in the parish and townland of Kilbrogan, dated 5 July 1849, and the other for Denis Crowly, in the townland of Knockbrogan, Civil parish of Kilbrogan, dated 25 October 1848. Both were recorded in the House Books: https://tinyurl.com/ymwjcspb

Searching the "Crowly" surname spelling for all parishes and townlands in County Cork brings you to over 100 pages of Valuation Office Book entries, as you can see beginning here: https://tinyurl.com/4tvh7jwj

I also looked for Jonas Tanner in the four Valuation Books for County Cork, and uncovered five entries, but none in the Civil Parish of Kilbrogan, where Knockbrogan was located. These entries are dated 1848 and 1849: https://tinyurl.com/m3kscbsm  

Concerning the Valuation Office, I'm not aware of any records held there which would trace the whereabouts of Florence and Mary Crowley when they had their children from 1829 to 1846.

At present the Valuation Office is digitizing what are known as the Valuation Revision Books, aka Cancelled Books, for the Republic of Ireland. These books were compiled from the 1850s up until the 1990s, and record when property changed hands from an owner or a tenant, to a new owner or tenant. Here is an example of a Revision/Cancelled Book from County Down: 

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/support-files/kilkeeldownrevisionbook.pdf

They are not available online yet for the Republic of Ireland, but can be searched in person at the Valuation Office. The Valuation Office in Dublin actually goes by the name of Tailte Eireann now. You can search the Revision/Cancelled Books there, but it is recommended that you make an appointment before you visit, if these records are of interest to you.

Go to the following for more information about research in the Reading Rooms at Tailte Eireann: https://tailte.ie/archive-research/visit-valarchive/

For a comprehensive explanation of the Valuation Cancelled Books, see the Irish Genealogy Toolkit link: https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/revision-books.html

Also see Tailte Eireann's, "An Introduction to our Valuation Archives," which you can download from: https://tailte.ie/an-introduction-to-our-valuation-archives/

I sent an email to Tailte Eireann asking when the Revision Books will be available to search online, but haven't heard back from them.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help Linda,

Kind Regards,

Dave

SOURCES

National Archives of Ireland: Tithe Applotment Books

National Archives of Ireland: Valuation Office Books

Valuation Office/Tailte Eireann Revision Books, aka Cancelled Books

Dave,

As always, your information is very helpful.  I am going to dig in this week to explore.  At least you found Florence for me in 1827 Knockbrogan, Cork Road!

Linda

Thank you Linda.

Dave

Dave,

Since I have a list of children baptized in the Roman Catholic Parish of Bandon and one reference to a possible 1827 mention of Flor Crowley on Cork Road, Knockbrogan, would there be a reason to look at other possible townlands that may of used the same parish church for baptisms?  The couple married in 1828, had there first son, James in 1829, should I be looking at James Crowley (as possible father of Florence)? In addition, given the tidbit of info that a Florence Crowley surrendered his farm in 1830.  In other words, where might have the family lived between 1830 and 1849?  Is there a way to look at what townlands attended a certain catholic parish?  In addition, given the list of children, would James be the best guess of Florence's father's name?  Could he, his wife and family lived with his parents?  

My best,

Linda