Deaths Lookup Request

Daryl,

The Irish civil indexes have just one death that fits Abigail. Registered Lurgan Jan ? Mar 1888 Vol 1, page 640. Est year of birth 1818.

There are two possibles for George, again both registered in Lurgan. Jan ? Mar 1884 Vol 1, page 557 est year of birth 1822. Or Death 1874 viol 6, page 530, est year of birth 1826.

You can order photocopies from GRO Roscommon for ?4 per certificate. Put the place, year, quarter (where there is one), volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). Don?t worry about leaving some boxes blank. You don?t need to fill them all in if you have the reference details. http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Tick the relevant box on the form.

GRONI also have copies of these certificates and you can get them from there too. However they charge to access the indexes (?14) and it?s ?4 for a readover of a certificate, so I doubt anyone will be likely to look them up for free for you. Your best bet is probably to order photocopies from Roscommon.

Elwyn

Daryl,

Ages are often out by a factor of up to 10 years, at that time. It was just the informant?s best guess.  (I have a copy of a letter written in 1908 from someone who says, ?all I know is that I am aged between 70 and 78?.) People didn?t know their own ages and so the informant was just likely to add further confusion when he/she guessed the age.

To find out if these are the correct certificates, you?ll have to buy them to get the townlands etc. Abigail?s marital status will also tell you whether George was dead or alive at that time. Might be helpful if you are struggling to find George?s death.

Elwyn

As Brendan says, the old age pension was introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Because birth certs only stared in 1864 most people in Ireland who were eligible for the pension didn?t have one to prove their age. Many therefore applied to their Priest/Minister etc for evidence of age from parish records.

Many people are surprised that someone in the 20^th century might not know how old they were.  I found this letter in the Church of Ireland records in PRONI (MIC 1/37) which was written in November 1908. I assume it was written with the forthcoming pension in mind. However the significance to me is that it is clear evidence that someone at that time had no idea of their age, at least within a span of 9 years.

Daryl,

The information that George & Abigail were both alive in 1873 seems to fit with the possible deaths I have suggested you look at.

George Tedford?s marriage to Sarah Cooper was registered in Belfast Apr ? Jun 1909 Vol 1, page 436.

On the births computer system at GRONI, Belfast, it is possible to search using the fathers? surname and the mother?s maiden name, leaving the childs forename blank, and this throws up all children to that couple (or any other couple with the same names, as sometimes happens). Looking at the on-line indexes there were about 12 children born in Belfast in the period 1911 ? 1921 of the surname Tedford.

You could order copies of all those certificates to see if any were your family. Otherwise you?ll need to contact GRONI (or get a researcher to go there for you). If you go in person, GRONI charge ?14 to access the indexes. That includes 2 free readovers. Subsequent readovers are ?4 each. I am not sure what the fees are if you e-mail them (or ring them). You could ring them up and find out. You can pay over the phone with a debit or credit card.

The records for Northern Ireland on Familysearch and other similar sites all stop at 31.12.1921. Nothing is on-line after that. So if the couple had children after that date, the only way you will find out is by contacting GRONI.

George may not have stayed in Ireland of course. Hartland & Wolff had yards in Glasgow and Liverpool as well as Belfast and they often moved skilled staff between the yards, as required. So he may only have stayed in Belfast for a few years before moving on.

Incidentally, if he was working for Harland & Wolff, and was in Belfast in 1909 ? 1911, then George almost certainly worked on the Titanic.

Elwyn

Daryl,

Harland & Wolff's records are in PRONI. A personal visit is generally required to go through them.

Elwyn

Daryl,

If you do vist PRONI, then start with D2805/PER/B1 & B2 which are registers of employees in the period 1870 ? 1922.

Elwyn

Daryl,

There?s no appointment system but occasionally records are unavailable because staff or academics have borrowed them. If you are coming from Glasgow, it?d be worth contacting them in advance and confirming their availability. You also need photo id to get a readers ticket (ie driving licence or passport). Takes 2 minutes to get the readers ticket.

There?s loads of Harland & Wolff records. 500 or 600 files. You can search the index on the PRONI site. Type in Harland & Wolff, on the e-catalogue, and they?ll come up. http://www.proni.gov.uk/

Your other option is to get PRONI to research the records for you. They charge something like ?60 an hour and you may not feel prepared to pay that. Or you could get a researcher in Ireland to do the work too. However there is a certain pleasure to be got from doing it yourself.

PRONI is about 10 minutes from Belfast City Airport (flybe from Glasgow). 1 stop on the train (Sydenham which is 10 mins from the terminal building to Titanic) or a taxi ride.

Elwyn

Daryl,

The information on a marriage certificate is more likely to be correct than that on a death certificate. The information on a marriage cert has come first hand from people who are likely to know their parents names and occupations etc, Whereas on a death cert, it?s only the informants best guess. The informant almost certainly never knew Thomas?s parents and errors over their names, especially the mother?s maiden name are very common.

Thomas was born before 1864 so you won?t get a birth certificate for him. You might just find his baptism but to do that you would need to know which church he attended. The records are probably not on-line either. You might find them in PRONI (but you?d need to know the church).

If Thomas was born c 1847 then there?s affair chance that his parents married before April 1845, in which case the marriage won?t be in the statutory records either. Again you would need to know where it took place to try and find it in church records. Assuming it was Tartaraghan and Church of Ireland then their records start in 1825, so you should be OK. A copy is held in PRONI, Belfast.

I can?t see marriage listed for David Tedford/Telford in 1869 in Ireland.

Elwyn

Daryl,

I don?t think there?s any doubt that Abigail?s death is the correct one. Apart from the absence of any other deaths in the records of someone of that name at that period, Derrykeeran (where she died) is not that big. In the 1901 census there were only 38 households in the townland, of which only 1 was a Tedford (evidently David, the informant). You know Abigail lived in Derrykeeran; there?s only 1 Tedford family there, so it really has to be her:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Tartaraghan/Derrykeeran/

Regarding George?s death, Derrykeeran is in Lurgan civil registration district. Farmers didn?t travel much and so I?d be looking for deaths registered there, rather than in Armagh or other districts. In my post dated 31^st Jan I gave details of 2 that fit the information you have. I suggest you order them, as both died before 1888, and you know now that your George died between 1873 and 1888.

The information on Irish death certificates mirrors that on English death certificates. It?s much less than you get on Scottish certs (which you are obviously used to). You don?t routinely get parents names. Sometimes with childrens deaths, a parents name may appear ?son of X? or the informant?s name and identity may help, but in most cases you get no clues. You would need to try church records, if they go back far enough, in the hope you can find George & Abigail?s baptisms. Though you say you thought the family were Presbyterian, note that David in the 1901 census was Church of Ireland (ie the family were ?piskies?). Tartaraghan?s baptisms only start in 1825 (earlier records being lost, so you might not get any help there).

I wouldn?t worry about the Telford/Tedford spellings. Spellings were like ages, they varied all the time.  There was no consistency at all. Robertson and Robinson , Kirkpatrick  & Kilpatrick were similarly swapped back and forth all the time. The idea of a ?correct? spelling is very much a more modern concept.

Elwyn

Daryl,

I agree I think you have found the right death certificate for George. (I note it was one of the two I suggested, so glad that worked out). Regarding who the informant was, it just has to be someone either closely related to the deceased or who was present at the death. It doesn?t have to be their spouse or closest relative. James was evidently present at the death, and he was a relative, so he qualified twice over. No doubt at that time Abigail was pretty distressed and so the grandson registered it to avoid her having the trouble and grief. That would be quite common. (The death was registered on what was almost certainly either the day of the funeral, or the day after, so you could understand Abigail not wanting to go herself that day).

Tradition was to marry in the bride?s church so the 1868 Presbyterian marriage tells you that the bride was Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian) but it doesn?t necessarily mean the groom was.

Piskie is short for Episcopalian, which is what members of the Church of Ireland/England are known as in Scotland!

I agree you may well have got as far as the records will allow for the Tedford/Telford line nayway.

Elwyn