Where to find Birth (1840)/Marriage (1860) records for Island Magee?

Awesome!  Tks so much for that lead Roger.  I will contact the minister.  The marriage record I'm looking for was for James Allan and Agnes Elizabeth Finnie who were reportedly married on Nov 18, 1861 in Islandmagee Ireland.  I got that information from an image of the Scottish birth record of their son and everything is pretty legible but I'm only 95% certain her last name was Finnie. If there is a marriage record, what would it typically indicate?  Birth date?  approx age? birth location? marriage location?

Tks very much ...Ian

Roger .. tks so much for researching that for me.  Where did you find that record?  And am I correct if I 're-parse' it as follows:

First name(s)-James

Last name-Allen

Age-

Marital status-

Marriage year-1860

Marriage date-26 Nov 1860

Marriage place-Islandmagee, Ant, Ire (I presume 'Ant, Ire' is short for Antrim Ireland')

Father's first name(s)-Hugh Lunn

Father's last name-Allen

Mother's first name(s)-

Mother's last name-

Spouse's first name(s)-Nancy Betty

Spouse's last name-Feeney

Spouse's age-

Spouse's birth place-

Spouse's marital status-

Spouse's father's first name(s)-John

Spouse's father's last name-Feeney

Spouse's mother's first name(s)-

Spouse's mother's last name-

Residence-Islandmagee, Antrim, Ireland

Place-Islandmagee County-Antrim

The obvious differences are in the last names ('Allen' vs 'Allan'; 'Feeney' vs 'Finnie'); the brides first names ('Nancy Betty' vs 'Agnes Elizabeth') and the differing marriage year ('Nov 26, 1860' vs 'Nov 18 1861') but I've been doing genealogy long enough to know that you can't always trust people's handwriting or memories.  My wife has always said that 'Allen' is typically Irish and 'Allan' is typically Scottish and what we have is an Irish ancestor who emmigrated to Scotland so I could understand that misspelling happening .. same for Feeney vs Finnie although I have multiple Scottish records over time where it is consistently spelled 'Finnie'.  Betty is also a common name for Elizabeth and I have Scottish records where she's also referred to as 'Betsy'.   But 'Nancy' vs 'Agnes' is hard to explain .. is there an Irish explanation that I'm not aware of? 

Also, the record doesn't include any age information.  The death records I have suggest that James was born in 1848 and Agnes Elizabeth in 1842.  Can I get access to similar index records of their births that might corroborate the record you've given me?

I have emailed the Reverend re: Parish records but no response yet.

Tks ...Ian

Roger, I subsequently discovered that FamilySearch has a similar marriage record to the one you posted.  I had searched there earlier so I guess I must have been too restrictive on some details.   I tried again also for James and Nancy's birth records but with no luck but will keep trying.  Tks for making that breakthrough for me.  ...Ian

Ian

 

Perhaps this might be of some help.

 

The original marriage certificate held by 1st Islandmagee Presbyterian congregation gives the following details of the marriage you are interested in:

 

Number in Register – 140 26 November 1860

James Allen, full age, bachelor, farm servant, Whitehead/Broadisland, Father’s name Hugh Lunn Allen, labourer.

Nancy Betty Feeney, full age, spinster, no profession, Islandmagee, Father’s name John Feeney, labourer.

 

Married by William Campbell, minister.

Witnesses – Hugh Feeney and Susan Kain.

 

Obviously both bride and groom had reached the full legal age of 21 years.  Also, both of them and the two witnesses, signed their names with an ‘X’, so all may not have been able to write.  If that is the case, variations in spelling of the surnames will be down to whoever made the record and how the name was spoken to them.

 

The first child born was:

 

Number in Register 1460

 

Child’s name Hugh Allen.  Father’s name James Allen, Mother’s name Nancy Betty Feeney.  Place of residence, Castletown.  Date of birth 29 April 1862, date of baptism 3 June 1862.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Castletown is the most southern townland in Islandmagee, just where it touches the mainland and part of which is now in the town of Whitehead.  It is thus close to James Allen's residence at the time of his marriage. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

L G Biglow

LG .. tks so much for providing that additional information as I have been unable to find Hugh Allen's birth record elsewhere and the fact that he was born to James/Nancy in 1862 seems to further corroborate with other information in spite of the spelling differences.  I don't have a definitive birth date for Hugh but his marriage record in Scotland in 1882 at 21 seems to confirm the 1862 birth as does an 1891 Scottish Census record for Hugh Allan and family that he was 29 at that time and had been born in Ireland .. and an earlier 1871 Scottish Census record for James Allan, wife Nancy (which I've never been able to explain until now) and family where Hugh's age is listed as 7, which is close to the 8 or 9 that I'd be expecting.  These census records consistently show that Hugh was born in Ireland while his other younger brothers were born in Scotland.

Likewise, the marriage location of Castletown is consistent with 1861 Griffith's Valuation information I found for a Hugh and James Allen in nearby Temple Effin, just North of Castletown.  However, your new marriage record information indicates that Nancy's father was John Feeney, whereas my corresponding Agnes Elizabeth death certificate indicates her father was Hugh Finnie, also an agricultural labourer.  I did find a Hugh Fenny in the same Temple Effin Valuation record as Hugh/James Allen.  Her mother's maiden name was Blair and there were also a number of Blairs in the Valuation record nearby.   However, I haven't been able to find a marriage record for John Feeney/Fenny/Finnie and Agnes Blair or a birth record for a Nancy Feeney/Feney/Finnie/Fenny around 1835-1845.  I hate to ask but do you have any record of Nancy's birth?

Tks again for the info on Hugh's birth which helps me to cement a bit more of the puzzle.  I agree with your comments about the issue re: phonetics in these historical records.

...Ian

Dear Ian

 

I will look through the birth and marriage records but this may take several days.  I'll record any of these surnames for your information.

L G .. tks so much .. whenever you can squeeze in some time would be much appreciated.  I'm assuming this info is not online or I wouldn't be bothering to ask you.  ...Ian

Dear Ian

 

I have now had an opportunity to look at some of the sources local to Islandmagee from the information you have provided and I hope what follows makes some sense to you.

 

Just for background, the neighbouring parishes of Islandmagee and Templecorran (Broadisland) are some of the most Scottish in Ulster, being the location of the famous ‘Broadisland Gathering’ on Ulster-Scots culture every year.  This means that the Scottish naming system for children was in commin use and variations of the spelling of surnames is frequently due to ignorance on the part of the official recording what is heard, and their ability to understand a fairly distinct Scottish acdcent.  Thus the surname ‘Allen’ and ‘Allan’ are not Scottish and Irish versions, but are often used for the same person in different records, as I found when following up some of the birth entries.

 

Please forgive me if some of this is already known to you, but better twice than not at all.

 

1.  With respect to records of birth, civil registration only started in Ireland in 1864.  However, some earlier records are held by church congregations and I have looked for Nancy Betty Feeney in the four congregations in Islandmagee.  The records in 1st Presbyterian date from 1829, 2nd Presbyterian from 1851, Methodist from 1826 and Church of Ireland from 1879.  The name does not occur in any of the early records.

 

1. You commented in an earlier post that “Betty is also a common name for Elizabeth and I have Scottish records where she's also referred to as 'Betsy'.   But 'Nancy' vs 'Agnes' is hard to explain .. is there an Irish explanation that I'm not aware of? “  Betty is indeed a diminuitive of Elizabeth, but so also is Agnes expressed as Nan or Nancy on occasions, and I have seen records to this effect. or something similar.

 

1. “…the record doesn't include any age information.”  Sometimes the actual number of years is given, but oftern the term ‘full age’ is used of those who have attained the legal age of adulthood of 21 years or over.  A woman below this age may be referred to as a ‘spinster child’.  In the cases of James Allen and Nancy Betty Feeney, they must have been born before 1840, if they stated their ages correctly.

 

4.  With respect to your comment about the marriage of James Allan and Agnes Elizabeth Finnie on Nov 18, 1861 in Islandmagee, I have checked the records and they are not shown in any of them.

 

5Their does seem to have been something going on with the Allen and Feeney families at this time since I discovered a further birth of interest from 1st Islandmagee Presbyterian:

 

Number in Register 1467

 

Child’s name, John.  Father’s name hugh Allen, mother’s name Jane Feeney, Temple-effin.  Born 16 June 1862, baptised 21 July.  William Campbell, minister.

 

This could be a second Allen brother having married a second Feeney sister, or given the late pregnancies that occurred at the time, James Allen’s father and mother!  However, the birth record does not give the father’s occupation.

 

1. Finney & Feeney.  I have brought together any instances of the name that I have found.  In some cases this might help identify the witnesses or any possible relationships, including that of employer.

 

D778/816

25 November 1824

 

Counterpart lease from Arthur, Viscount Dungannon to Hugh Finny of Cloughfin, farmer, for 31 years of 3 acres in Cloughfin, Co. Antrim.

 

Annual rent: £6.

 

Labour services and multure to the mill of Island Magee.

 

Marriages 1st Islandmagee Presbyterian congregation

Number in Register 25, 7 January 1833

 

John Finney from Gransha and Margaret Bradford, also of Gransha.  Witness David Quin and Hugh Johnston.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Number in Register 148

 

Child’s name, James.  Father’s name John Finney, mother’s name Margaret Bradford.  Upper Gransha.  Born 2 January 1834, baptised 8 January.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Number in Register 243

 

Child’s name Alick.  Father’s name John Finney, mother’s name Margaret Bradford.  Ballydown.  Born 1 June 1836, baptised 14 July.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Tithe Applotment 1834

Finney, Hugh Townland: Temple Effin Year: 1834

 

Ordnance Survey Memoir 1839/40

 

Annual migration to Glasgow, Scotland:

 

Samuel FEENY, 22 Presbyterian, labourer, no capital, from Ballylumford. 

 

Griffith’s Valuation Islandmagee

Fenny            Hugh               Temple Effin         Island Magee     Antrim

 

Griffith’s Valuation Templecorran

Samuel Fenny Bentra

Note, he appears in the 1901 census at Bentra, Templecorran, and is buried there.

 

Marriage 1st Islandmagee Presbyterian congregation

 

Register number 106, date 13 October 1857.

 

Hugh Finney, full age, bachelor, farmer, Cloghfin.  Father John Finney, farmer, 

Isabella Stevenson, full age, spinster, no occupation stated, Mullaghdubh.  John Stevenson Coastguard.

 

Witnesses:  John Nelson and Dorothea McLernon.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Birth record

 

Number in Register 1232

 

Child’s name, Thomas.  Father’s name Hugh Finney, mother’s name Isabella Stevenson.  Temple effin.  Born 19 January 1858, baptised 1st March.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Number in Register 1343

 

Child’s name, John.  Father’s name Hugh Finney, mother’s name Isabella Stevenson.  Temple effin.  Born 12 April 1860, baptised 23 April.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Number in Register 1453

 

Child’s name, Sarah Jane.  Father’s name Hugh Finney, mother’s name Isabella Stevenson.  Residence Temple effin, born 21 April 1862, baptised 15 May.  William Campbell, minister.

 

Number in Register 1634

 

Child’s name, Hugh.  Father’s name Hugh Finney, mother’s name Isabella Stevenson.  Temple effin.  Born 6 October 1865, baptised 27 October.  William Campbell, minister.

 

 

A Jane Fenny appears in the pew lists in pew number 26 for 1st Islandmagee from 1859 to 1865.  She is not present after that year.

 

1. Allen family

 

Griffith’s Valuation Islandmagee

Allen            Hugh               Temple Effin         Island Magee     Antrim

Allen            James              Temple Effin         Island Magee     Antrim

Allen            John               Ballykeel            Island Magee     Antrim

 

Griffith’s Valuation Templecorran

 

Hugh Allen Knocknagulliagh

Jane Allen North-West Ballycarry

Jane Allen South-West Ballycarry

William Allen Forthill

William Allen North-West Ballycarry

 

As Islamdmagee is famed across the world for its semen, I was not surprised to find two of these on Crewlists:

 

Hugh Allen

Birth year 1833 or 1834

Birth date? ? 1833 or 1834

Birthplace Island Magee

Year 1878

Month December

Vessel name Eagle

Vessel official number 11616

Vessel registry port Dublin

 

James Allen

Birth year 1859

Birth date ? ? 1859

Birthplace Island Mgee

Year 1884

Month June

Vessel name Kelpie

Vessel official number 57003

Vessel registry port Belfast

 

1. Finney & Feeney Burials

Sometimes the place of burial can give an indication of where to look for a connection.  Thus it is interesting that there is not a single Finney or Feeney headstone in any of the graveyards on Islandmagee up to 1900, when they have been recorded.

 

I found only one in Templecorran:

 

Templecorran Graveyard

 

FEENEY

Erected by Samuel Feeney in memory of his wife Eliza Feeney who died 15th Decr. 1888 aged 77 years. The above-named Samuel Feeney died 2nd Novr. 1905 aged 86 years. Also Eliza, daughter of the above Samuel Feeney, who died 31st August 1914 aged 66 years.

 

We have seen this Samuel Feeney several times in the records before.

 

1. Allen Burials – Islandmagee

 

There are not many of these, and most are early and would only be useful when you have made a more recent connection:

 

Ballykeel graveyard, Islandmagee

 

Allen

See McDowall

 

McDOWALL

[M.D. VIII, 221. Slate stone inscribed on both sides - broken in two with many words now lost]. Here lieth ye body of John McDowall who departed this life May ye 22d 1748 aged 72 years. Also his son Edwd. McDowall who departed this life July ye 13th 1744 aged 34 years.

[Reverse side]. Here lieth the body of George ALLEN who died in ye year 1770 Aet. 9 mos. Robert Allen who died in July 1807 aged 27 years. John Allen who died Jany. 12th 1816 Aet. 36 years. George Allen died same yr. & mo. Aet. 40 years. Also their father John Allen died Novr. 7th 1819 aged 90 yrs.

 

Ballypriormore graveyard, Islandmagee

 

ALLEN

[With arms:- Per bend indented, in chief two crescents, in base a mullet of six points. Motto:- Gradatim plena. Crest:- a crescent]. Here lyeth the body of John Allen who died May 9th 1769 aged 80 years.

 

ALLEN

See McGOWN

 

McGOWN

[M.D. VIII, 222. Carved in relief on the reverse of the stone - a sinister hand appaumee fessways, couped at the wrist]. Here lieth the body of Jane ALLEN who dept. this life June the 14th 1779 aged 45 years. Also her husband James McGown who dept. this life April the 1st 1817 aged 88 years.

 

St. John’s Church of Ireland graveyard, Islandmagee

 

Allen

See Duff

 

DUFF

[Marble and sandstone]. Erected by Mary ALLEN in memory of her beloved husband William Duff who died at Akyab, Burmagh, 22nd August 1882 aged 40 years. Also their two children who died in infancy.

Also their daughter Bella Allen Duff who died 15th Jany. 1913.

 

The census record for this family shows them to have been Non-subscribing Presbyterians.

 

1. Allen Burials – Templecorran

 

Note in particular the last two Allen gravestones before that for Banford.  These unusually are both for the same individuals – John and Isabella Allen of Islandmagee, who died in 1862 and 1880 respectively.  Isaabella’s will can be found on the PRONI website and shows the family to have been from Islandmagee but to have attended Ballycarry Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church.

 

Templecorran Graveyard

 

ALLAN

[Red sandstone against east wall of north transept] . Here lieth the body of James Allan, late of Ballycarry, who departed this life October the 8th 1818 aged 12 years.

ALLEN

[Distinct lettering, in a railed enclosure] . John Allen died the 24th April 1828 aged 63 years. Also his wife Jane Allen, died the 29th September 1848 aged 59 years.

ALLEN

[Within same railings as foregoing] . John Allen died the 25th June 1828 aged 34 years. Also his wife Eliza Allen who died 27th February 1856 aged 63 years. And their daughter Agnes SMILEY, who died 9th September 1858 aged 31 years. Jane, daughter of the above Agnes Smiley, died 13th July 1885 aged 34 years.

ALLEN

Sacred to the memory of John Allen, Islandmagee, who departed this life 11th June 1862 aged 53 years. Also his wife Isabella BROWNE who died 14th April 1880 aged 68 years.

ALLEN

[Large monument with urn on top in a cement enclosure] . 1896. Erected by George Allen of Philadelphia to the memory of his father John Allen who departed this life 11th June 1862 aged 53 years. Also his mother Isabella Allen who departed this life 14th April 1880 aged 68 years. Also his brother Samuel who died 2nd April 1901 aged 66 years. And his wife Bessie Hill Allen who died 5th Feby. 1907 aged 67 years. Also his brother James who died 3rd March 1923 aged 87 years. Allen, Islandmagee.

 

ALLEN

See BANFORD, REID, ROBB, SILLYMAN and SMILEY

 

BANFORD

Erected by John Banford in memory of his son James who died 10th Jany. 1881 aged 17 years. Also his beloved wife Sarah who died 31st March 1885 aged 50 years. Also his daughter Elizabeth who died 22nd August 1885 aged 14 years. Also his son Charles who died 1(6)th Feby. 1886 aged 9 years. Also his son Thomas who died 14th September 1886 AE 7 years. The above John Banford died 29th August 1904 aged 75 yrs. Also his daughter Rosanna ALLEN who died 14th Nov. 1914 aged 40 years. Also his son Samuel JACKSON who died 8th September 1922. Ellen Jane Banford, wife of Samuel Jackson, died 19th March 1949. Also Robert, son of the above John Banford, died 28th May 1950. Susan, wife of Robert Banford, died 11th December 1955.

 

REID

[White marble tablet inset on sandstone] . In memory of John Reid who died 25th August 1845 aged 70 years and his wife Isabella NELSON, who died 23rd March 1860 aged 74 years. Also their daughter Margaret Reid who died 27th October 1908 aged 89 years. Also his great grand-daughter Sarah Jane Allen died 16th July 1915 aged 23 years. Also her father James Allen, died 26th November 1925 aged 67 years. Also son of the above James A. Allen died 12th November 1930 aged 40 years. Also his mother Margaret Allen, died 11th April 1952 aged 95 years. Also her son Hugh Allen, died 12th September 1963 aged 71 years.

 

ROBB

[No date; outside railings of John Allen (1828)] . Erected by Ellen ALLEN in memory of her father W. Robb. Also her mother Eliza, and brother William, and sister Anne. [During 1977 a white marble plaque was bolted to this stone:-] Allen, David died June 1931. Wife, Ellen Robb—Jan. 1933. Son, W. John—June 1917. Daughter, Mary—March 1922. Son, Sam-1972.

 

SILLYMAN

Here lyes the remains of John Sillyman who departed this life May 1st 1783 aged 73 years. To the memory of Nancy, wife of James ALLEN, who departed this life 18(35) aged 63 years. Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord.

 

SMILEY

[Enclosed with the two John ALLEN stones] . Erected by Mary Smiley in memory of her beloved husband Robert Smiley, died 30th May 1886 aged 32 years. Also his father Alexander Smiley M.D., died 13th May 1887 aged 70 years. Also the above-named Mary Smiley who died 17th December 1919.

 

Conclusion

 

I know that this document does not give you everything you need for your research.  However, it seems clear from a glance at the gravestones and some wills that are available, that the connection between the feeney/Finney  and Allen families may be that they were what is called ‘Non-subscribing Presbyterians, also known as ‘Unitarians’.  Again, a glance at the census for 1901 for both the parishes of Islandmagee and Templecorran shows that there were a number of families of these names who adhered to Unitarianism.  That being the case, you would need to look for records from Ballycarry Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church situated in Ballycarry Village.  The present minister is Rev. Dr. J. W. Nelson, and you can find the congregational website on the web.  You may also wish to look up the PRONI website to see what records they hold from this congregation.

 

L G .. once again I'm speechless at the amount of new information you've been able to gather.  Thank you so much for the effort you've put into this .. very much appreciated!  To be honest, it's probably going to take me several days to summarize the many linkages you've provided and get my head around all this.  Your inciteful comments about 'non-subscribing Presbyterians' is something I never would have considered and your suggestions for further research are much appreciated.

I don't know what your connection is to supporting this Ireland XO initiative (paid or volunteer) but you've clearly gone above and beyond any help I was expecting.  So, my question is "what are they (or you) looking for in return?" .. for me to just post any stories about my wife's family and their journey from Ireland to Scotland to Canada?  I feel like I need to be giving something back in return for the help I'm getting in my research.  My wife's sister and husband were in Ireland earlier this year (on business) and loved it but at the time I didn't have enough information for them to do a side trip to Island Magee.  Even now, there are obviously some details to tidy up before I'd feel right about posting too much.  But perhaps in the near future.

Thanks again for your continued support   ...Ian

L G .. fyi .. re: your comments about Agnes <-> Nancy, I just found this Family Tree Forum discussion (https://www.familytreeforum.com/archive/index.php/t-48942.html?s=9941f2…) on the topic which also points to this link (http://www.rampantscotland.com/forenames/blnames_a.htm) for popular Scottish forenames which confirms your assessment.  I had been looking for an Irish explanation but due to the heavy Scottish history of Island Magee/TempleCorran, a Scottish explanation seems more logical

Dear Ian

 

I am not involved with the Ireland XO initiative, but simply noticed your query and looked up my records, since the name was slightly unusual for the area and I was intrigued.  Hopefully, I will be looking at other records at the Public Records Office in Belfast in the near future and will keep the names in mind.  The locality of your ancestors suffered greatly from loss of records in Dublin in 1922 and I am only too aware of the frustrations of trying to make links, especially when living at a distance.  But knowledge that is not shared, is lost - as an American friend who was very generous with his information, once said.

 

Perhaps you would share the fruits of your research at some point, since it may help others and demonstrate that it is sometimes possible to get around that 'brick wall'.

 

Best wishes for your continuing research.