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Garrett Barry & Catherine Toner in Belfast

AntrimBelfast (Antrim)

Garrett Barry was mt Gt Gt Grandfather, and the couple were street Traders, who lived at 21 Ritchies Place which I think was close to the market in Belfast. I don't know exactly when they arrived in Belfast, but they had further family in 1864 and 1868 son Garrett & Laurence, and Catherine died prematurely in 1879 whilst still resident. Patrick another son registered her death, and this was the firsttime that he had come to my notice, and as he does not appear in the national birth registration I presume that he was born prior to 1866, and by calculation from his marriage certificate 1862 is a likely DOB. The question is where and when, his brothers were baptised RC at St. Patricks and St Mary's but there is no trace that I have found of Patrick being baptised at either. Their older brother Michael was born in Drogheda, Co Louth in 1857, and likewise no records there of Patrick. An additional complication is that the familymigrated to Scotland after the 1881 census as they are not listed there.Later Garrett died in Edinburgh 18886 after first settling in Glasgow, and yet another son James dealt with his death registration, he had a seperate address in Edinburgh, and again on the assumption he was born in Ireland to Catherine then he too must pre date birth registration in Ireland, as no trace can be found in Belfast or Drogheda, but also he does not feature in the 1891 Scottish census. So again I'm looking for a mechanism to trace the origins of James too. I'm wondering what the educational situation was in the 1850 onwards and if school registers are available, and if so, how to get a look for this family living in the centre of Belfast with five or more children, as too date there hasn't been found any female children, so there could be more. The last unknown is where and when did Garrett & Catherine get married if indeed they actually did? Was it Drogheda or somewhere else, where were Patrick and James born and baptised, again no records to date from available on line church records give any clues, but I feel that there must be more church records and possiblyschool records in Belfast with a story to tell, does anyone have any access or ideas?

MikeABarry

8 replies

Mike,

Ritchie’s Place has disappeared today but was off North St. That crosses Royal Avenue which is the main street in Belfast. So the family lived in the city centre. Going by the 1877 street directory Ritchie’s Place was between nos 112 & 114 North St, so that should help. Unfortunately the houses in Ritchie’s Place were too poor to be worth listing and so no occupants names appear in the street directory. The 1877 just says ”30 small houses.”

National Schools started in the 1830s, plus there were also schools run by the churches and various charities. School attendance records do survive, though not for every school. The trouble is that there were about 50 schools in Belfast. I am not sure which would have covered the area your family lived in. The records themselves are not on-line. They are in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast (in the SCH series of records), and a personal visit would be required to view them. PRONI have old maps of Belfast which will show you precisely where Ritchie’s Place was located and you may be able to spot nearby schools on those maps to see which the children might have attended. Typically they would have left school by age 13 if not before.

Statutory birth registration started in 1864. I searched for Garret & Laurence’s births in 1864 and 1868 but did not find either in Belfast. Couldn’t see any births of children to parents named Barry & Toner in the period 1864 to 1879.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hello Elwyn,

Thank you for the information, as I live in England getting across to N.I. doesn't happen that often, hence my attempt to try to find out more here.  During this period the registrered surnames varied between Berry and Barry, and often Catherine's surname is mis represented Tonner, Toler etc.Both Belfast born sons have Baptism records available in most places, which I have copies of, which makes my searches for other children the more frustrating. Those missing census records would surely make our lives alot more straight forward!  I guess that I'll have to wait until I come to Ireland again, to veiew the records you mentioned. Thank you MB

MikeABarry

On another thought, where do you think that a person would have been buried if they were RC and lived in such a central location.I'm referings to Catherine Barry I presume that as they were not well off there won't be a head stone, and the plot will have been reused again, but I have had success in Portsmouth and Bath for locating the original plot numbers by contacting cemetry adminsistration or local government if the cemetry was in their care. Have you had any experience of finding burial locations in central Belfast? MB

MikeABarry

It would be nice to know why Catherine died at 30 Smithfield Court, and Patrick was living at Rictchies Place, bit of a mystery where Garrett sn. was at this time. I'm wondering if he had already departed for Glasgow, Scotland, and what were the circumstances, but I don't expect I'll even get to this level of detail.MB

MikeABarry

Mike,

Found the births of Garret Berry on 5.6.1864 and Laurence Berry on 2.3.1868. Mothers maiden name Toner. None others to Berry/Toner parents up to 1879.

With the death certificate, if a person dies away from their usual residence, both addresses are shown eg “died at 1 High St” in the date and place of death section (section 2) but with the usual residence shown under the name (section 3). So if 30 Smithfield Court is the only address on the death certificate, she was probably living there at that time. If another address appears then she was at Smithfield Court temporarily, or in the case of a sudden death, perhaps just visiting.

For RC deaths, I’d try Milltown cemetery. They’ll tell you if there is a grave for nothing, but there’s a fee to pay for details of who is in it and who owns the plot etc. 028 9061 3972

The UHF have the records on their site, but you have to be a member to view them:

http://www.ancestryireland.com

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

I've contacted the city council with a request to look at their records, the online search facility din't give any result on a search for Catherine Barry. I'll post back if they come up with anything. I had a very comprehensive responce from Portsmouth Council, when looking desendants of Michael Barry my gt grand father. More later MB.

 

I've not had any reply yet from the City Council, I wonder if this delay is normal?  Does anyone have acces to the Milltown records at UHF that could search for Catherine Barry on my behalf?

MikeABarry

Hello, I Am new here, first time on this site. I was wondering if anyone had information on a Mary Toner, my gg grandmother. She was born in Ireland around 1852. She Married a William Tynan. They immigrated to the U.S. some time before1874. I'm not sure if they immigrated together. I guess it's kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack without more information. I have found a passenger list from July 1872 for a Mary Toner, which lists parents as Thomas and Mary and 3 female siblings, Catherine, Teresa and Sarah or Hanah. I'm not sure if this is her but it's the closest I've come so far. Any direction would be helpful. Thank You!

Virginia Walsh

 

IrelandXO member

Hello Virginia, Thanks for the conact and reaching out. I'm looking for Toner people in connection with my research, and have connections with Drogheda,Co.Louth abd Belfast. I have a family tree on ancestry where I an collating my efforts.

I'm not totally familier with the problems in the US, but if you could get the natralisation papers of Mary and her husband William, then you might find some useful information. This web site is very useful for both church records and civil which are partially free, and more free records are being added all the time in line with the basic privicy provisions - https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie ancestry has good Irish records but I think Findmypast are slightly ahead at the moment so if you don't have either that would be a good place to start with a month by month sub.

Have you thought about autosomal DNA testing,and maybe mtDNA for women I have had some success with Y DNA and austosomal [ use Gedmatch.com after you have some results].

The griffith valuation might help when you have more idea of location, for the parents of the couple a free access version can be found here - http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ .

I'll certainly keep my eye out for your couple as I am always looking up records for Toners in Co.Louth, it gets pretty hard pre 1864  when your totally reliant on church records, if they were not RC, then its worth following up on specific sources Church of Ireland, etc.

I have a great deal down loaded on Toner's nationwide, 1901 & 1911 census, BMD from the above sites, and if you don't have a family tree on line then this is a good place to start as there is a small chance others may be researching your line. I think Ancestry allows free posting of trees, joining with a world wide sub can be expensive so you might be able to jion findmypast.ie, or ancestry.co.uk to get a more reasonable access, but you might need the US versions initially to get the censu, and imigration & maybe military records first. Feel free to contact me at mike at mikebarry dot eu for more info and / or DNA advice.

Reards

 

Mike Barry

 

MikeABarry

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