Ireland XO
Back to Message Board

William Burne, tailor

AntrimBelfast (Antrim)

My brick wall on this branch of my ancestry lies behind William Burne, supposedly born in 1816 in Bristol. I feel that his forebears were either Irish or Scottish. Looking around I came across varous documents which showWilliam Burns, a tailor, at 11 Bridge Stin Belfast between 1808-1811; at 125 High St in 1816; at 18 High St in 1819; and at 136 High St in 1824. Taking ages & dates into account, this chap would be a candidate for Bristol-born William's grandfather. There was one document, an advertisement in the Belfast Commercial Chronicle in 1816 in which WB was calling in his debtors, which to my mind indicated that he was perhaps in some sort of financial difficulty.

According to the London marriage record of Bristol-born tailor William Burne to Sarah Wiseman in 1839, his father's name was David and he too was a tailor so there's a remote possibility that he could have been the son of William the tailor in Belfastworking for his father, but when the business was in financial difficultyhe took off for Bristol where his son was born. There are very few records of any David Burnes anywhere at all on the popular ancestry sites or in the newspapers of the day.

On FindMyPast in theIreland Diocesan And Prerogative Wills & Administrations Indexes 1595-1858there is a death for William Burns in 1830 in Creavy but I've no idea if that's the same William Burns.

I guess what I'd really like is to rule out the this William in Belfast as being my ancestor, much as I'd like to have more Irish forebears on my tree!

In the Register of Irish Deeds Project the name Burne appears a number of times, notably John, Henry & William which were names that were used in many generations beginning with and followingon from William & Sarah.

https://irishdeedsindex.net/grantors/index.php

Of course these Deeds are nearlya century too early for this William Burns in Belfast but they may yet be significant. I realise that there's more than one way to spell Burne although my grandmother insisted that Burne (with an e) was the correct way!

There are also a few tailors named William Burne working in London at the same time as Bristol-born William (who was working for F Burghart in 1839 before he & Sarah relocated to Jersey in the Channel Islands).

Any tidbits of information on the above William or any other Burnes in Ireland would be greatly appreciated.

Bye for now,

Jenny Grant,

Mittagong, NSW, Australia

donjen33@gmail.com

7 replies

Jenny,

The surname Burn/Burns/Burne/Burnes is very common in Ireland. In the 1901 census there were 7851, 27 of whom were tailors. All over Ireland. The name would have been equally common in the early 1800s.

The name can also be spelled Byrne, Beirne etc. I didn’t count them.

Do you have anything that links your William to Belfast, other than that there happened to be a tailor of that name there in the early 1800s?  Have you found your William in any English census? If so, what does it give as place of birth?

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hello Elwyn,

Thanks so much for your message and for enlightening me on what appeared to have been a proliferation of Burnes in all forms of the name in Ireland.  

The 1841 census record taken in St Helier, Jersey is the only one I have for William as he & his family left there at the end of 1850 to come to Australia.  His age was given as 25 in that census and his birthplace was England.  The only other information I have about his birth is that which was given on his death certificate (as reliable/unreliable as that may be!) giving his birthplace as Bristol, Gloucestershire.  According to advertisements in the Sydney Morning Herald in 1852, he maintained an association with Gloucestershire, sourcing woollen fabrics such as tweeds etc from there for his tailoring business.  However I can find no records of him ever being there, let alone a birth record!  Just as an aside, his son Frederick Henry Burne (a painter) bought an old flour mill in Camden NSW and converted it to a woollen mill, and he actually made that long & arduous journey to England and back in 1884 to purchase equipment for the mill.  Whilst there he visited France (presumably Jersey, his birthplace) & Scotland (his in-laws, James Scoon & Agnes Riddell were born & raised in Hawick although by then were living in Lithgow NSW).  From what I've read, the woollen industry had really taken off in Hawick in the Scottish Borders and this would've been a great source of information for Frederick for the setting up and running of his own fledgling mill.  In 1889, he was installed as the very first Mayor of Camden.

Anyway, getting back to William & his forebears, I've been on this wild goose chase for more years than I'd like to remember and for me it's as much a case of ruling potential fathers out for him rather than ruling them in!  The thing that caught my eye about William Burns in Belfast was that the wording of my William's advertisements in the Sydney newspapers was so much like that of William's in the Belfast Commercial Chronicle, but maybe this was just a 'standard' tailoring advertisement.  Such a small thing, but sometimes it's these small things that lead to something bigger!

Just one little thing which has always made me wonder about just how much of my Irish heritage came down this line was that both my grandmother & my mother were blessed with the beautiful Celtic curly hair, my grandmother's being ginger!  Alas, those genes seem to have petered out at my Mum, now aged 95 but who still has those curls!  

I really appreciate your interest & your input Elwyn.

With kind regards,

Jenny

donjen33@gmail.com

Jenny,

I can give you a little information about the 1841 census.  In that census (only) the enumerators were instructed to round adults ages down to the nearest 5 years. Here’s their instructions in detail:

Write the age of every person under 15 years of age as it is stated to you. For persons aged 15 years and upwards, write the lowest of the term of 5 years within which the age is.

Thus—for Persons aged 15 years and under 20 write 15

20 years and under 25 write 20

25 years and under 30 write 25

30 years and under 35 write 30

35 years and under 40 write 35

40 years and under 45 write 40

45 years and under 50 write 45

50 years and under 55 write 50

55 years and under 60 write 55

60 years and under 65 write 60

65 years and under 70 write 65

70 years and under 75 write 70

and so on up to the greatest ages.

So though William’s age in St Helier in 1841 is shown as 25 he may have been anything between 25 and 29.

If the 1841 census says he was born in England, I’d be inclined to accept that that was accurate, especially as your other source links him to Bristol. Birth registration started in England in 1837. Prior to that you need to rely on church records. Have you searched church records in Bristol for a birth of a William Burne born 1812 – 1816, son of David? I am not sure what records exist, and I would expect Bristol to have had more than one parish. Was he Church of England or some other denomination? I am not an expert on English research and I don’t know whether their records are all on-line. (I doubt nonconformist or Presbyterian records are on-line for example). You could try  posting a message on the Rootschat site. They are very helpful and a lot of their members know about English records.

https://www.rootschat.com

You are correct about Hawick being a big woollen area. (It still is. Tourists are encouraged to visit the “textile trail” that goes through the Borders).  The major monasteries in the area (closed in the mid 1500s by Henry VIII) had large numbers of sheep. That was partially how they financed their existence, and weaving and sheep farming  have been major industries there for the past 500 years or more.

https://www.visitscotland.com/info/towns-villages/hawick-p242331

I am not sure whether curly red hair can be taken as definitive proof of Irish ancestry.  I dare say it can probably be found in other places (certainly in Scotland) but who knows?

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hi again Elwyn.

I know what you're saying about the ages given in the 1841 census.  When I first began researching my ancestry many years ago and not knowing those parameters at the time, I was totally confused as to how so many people's ages varied so much between censuses!  However, as far as my Bristol-born William is concerned, his death record in 1889 shows his age as 73, so it looks as though 1816 was his birth year.  But, as he died in February of that year at that age, it could've been 1815.  I've just about worn the keys out on my laptop looking for the birth of a William Burne, Bristol, +/- up to 10 years, with every spelling of Burne I could think of, but all to no avail.  I've used Rootschat in the past but I'll try them again following your reminder .... thank you.

I've been in contact with the Bristol Archives to see if there's a list of tailors in Bristol in 1816 with the hope of finding a David Burne but as they're closed at the moment because of The Virus, I doubt I'll hear anything back for a while, if ever.  I did get an automatic reply to my query though.

As soon as Australia's borders are open again & as far as The Virus in concerned it's safe to travel, my cousin & I will be visiting Hawick ... it's somewhere I've wanted to visit for a long time now. 

Thanks again for your help Elwyn.

Bye for now,

Jenny 

 

donjen33@gmail.com

Jenny and Elwyn,

Thanks very much for your history of William and the extra advice on deciphering geneology information.
Have you checked https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl where there are 2 David Burnes?
d. Dec 1865 Tavistock
d. Jun 1871 Liskeard
Both towns being 'ancient stannary and market towns' not far from Plymouth.

The registries for their death are available on freeBMD.

Phil

philb

Thanks for the information Phil.  I'd actually seen both those entries but had discounted the one in Liskeard as his age at death was given as 0.  However I'm giving some consideration to ordering the record for the Tavistock one.

Many thanks for your interest.

Jenny  

donjen33@gmail.com

Hi again Phil,

I've just checked them both out on the GRO index and they're both given "0" as their age at death.  Dashed yet again!!! Furthermore, the mother's maiden name of Winn was given on both birth records, 6 years apart.  How very sad for her. 

Jenny

donjen33@gmail.com

Reply

Reply
One image file up to 2 MB.