Ireland XO
Back to Message Board

Trying to link Purcells in Thurles, Templemore/Loughmoe and the Gortnahoe areas in the period 1790 to 1830

Firstly, apologies to everyone for the broad brush approach and being long winded, so let me explain. I have four people who are all relatives to each other (connected by Ancestry DNA) and follow, as ancestors, the Purcell lineage. Unfortunately, the period in question is when many of those Irish records were lost and so trying to work online from Australia becomes problematical. Three of these ancestors share a common link of Honora (Honor?) Purcell baptised in Templemore in 1827 (2 people) or perhaps in 1836 somewhere else in Tipperary (the third). All three agree on parents as Richard Purcell and Margaret Ryan but the date of birth depends on what records you use as a source. We have a baptism of Honor Purcell to Richd Purcell and Margt Ryan in Loughmore and Castleiny (residence Washpond) for 1 April 1827, however, her death record in Australia for 1897 gives her age as 60 and hence the 1831 date of baptism. The fourth person, my wife, follows the Purcell lineage through a different person, Mary Purcell (1817-1874) baptised to parents John Purcell (1791-1871) and Catherine Smith (1788-1868) on 27 October 1817 in Gortnahoe and who died in Australia on 7 September 1874, Mary is my wife's 2nd great-grandmother.

Our personal research of the Purcell lineage included a visit to Gortnahoe and the Parish Church there where we obtained much of our information and the lineage of Mary going backwards and so are reasonably sure of our "facts". I have posted a separate query on the Gortnahoe message board in 2018 but have not received any replies.

So I'm hoping there's someone out there who can possibly put these jigsaw pieces together for us.

 

Geoff and Diane

corne_rowell@o…

7 replies

There are 11 children including Honora listed for Richard and Margaret in the baptismal records on rootsireland.ie.  I believe you can trust Honora's 1827 baptism date.  When she died in Australia, someone else provided her age for the death record; she, of course, did not.  It's also possible that Honora was not aware of her actual birth date/year.  People at the time were not being asked for ID or being asked to provide birth info the way we are today. And birthdays weren't celebrated in Ireland at the time.

glanvil3@aol.com

Thank you Eileen. While we had Mary's date of baptism we didn't have a copy of the original so we can now add that to our tree.

Thank you Patricia for the information re the children of Margaret and Richard. We had 6 but didn't know about the other 5 that you've quoted. Would it be possible to get names and DoB for all these children so we can compare with what we have?

Unfortunately, while this information is very useful, it still doesn't help in working out whether or not these two Purcell families were related. Anecdotal evidence, read Ancestry DNA, suggests that they are, but with everyone having the same names, it's a bit like taking pot luck at a lucky dip! With the DNA match to my wife as 5th or 6th cousin, suggest that the link is around 5th great grandparent, putting this Richard, husband of Margaret Ryan as 3 grand uncle, or thereabouts.

What we think we know is:

Mary Purcell born 1817 to parents John Purcell and Catherine Smith. John and Catherine married in Gortnahoe on 3 Oct 1813. John's parents thought to be James Purcell and Mary Sheely or Shilly and he was baptised in Dublin (or recorded there?) and died 27 Jan 1871 in South Dublin (or recorded there). Mary married Thomas St George (1812-1891) on 5 Feb 1834 in Urlingford, Kilkenny and she died in Orange, New South Wales on 7 Sep 1874.

John Purcell baptised 24 Jun 1791 in Dublin (?) and died in South Dublin (?) on 27 Jan 1871. We have no further information on his parents other than potential names of James and Mary.

Looking at the results, and trying to fit a "Richard Purcell" into the mix to correlate with the DNA matches, suggests that Richard could have been born about 1794 and married Margaret Ryan. This then ties up 3 of the "protagonists" but is too close for a match to my wife via Mary Purcell as this would need to go back at least two further generations and trying to find that link is asking an awful lot.

Again, thank you for your help and I hope I'm not straining the friendship too far by asking for more.

Regards, Geoff for Geoff and Diane

corne_rowell@o…

Geoff and Diane,

Here is a list of Richard and Margaret children and baptismal dates from RootsIreland that Patricia mentioned

Bridget Dec. 28, 1819

Michael Sept. 9, 1821

John July 13, 1823

Joseph March 12, 1825

Patrick March 10, 1825

Honora April 1, 1827

Ann Jan. 24, 1829

Mary Dec. 1, 1830

Richard Feb. 19, 1832

Nicholas Sept. 18, 1834

Margaret July 21, 1839

Regards- Mary

 

mtvrdk@gmail.com

Geoff and Diane,

My great great grandmother was a Purcell. I have been told my Purcells were from Loughmore, moved to Cashel before settling in Emly, Tipperary in the mid 1750s. I have no proof of this. I have a DNA test on Ancestry user name MaryTV could you check if we match?

Have you been in touch with The Purcell Society? I haven't reached out to them, but they seem to have done research on various Purcell families in the Loughmore area.

THE PURCELL SOCIETY (purcellfamily.org)

Regards- Mary

mtvrdk@gmail.com

Hi Mary and thanks for your response. The Patrick to Richard and Margaret on 10 March 1825 is, we believe, wrongly assigned as the hand written record we have is for mother Peggy. When you look at the baptism date for Joseph as well, the 2 day difference, 10th March and 12th March, I don't believe that would happen in real life, confirming different parents.

Diane's full name is Geraldine Diane and may appear on Ancestry as GC but regrettably I can't find a match on her results so it doesn't look like we can claim you as a cousin.

Geoff

corne_rowell@o…

The baptismal date is more likely accurate than any other record you will find in Ireland. Superstition of the child being taken by the devil if they die before entering the house of God is more powerful than government rules (even if they exist.

For older people dying it was often rounded to the nearest five years and not given by the deceased :) :)  Did the informant have knowledge of the age (see below) or a reason to lie - like they were illegitimately born or inheritance rights?

Weddings are the worst ageing records for errors, closely followed by the Census ages.

It is important to understand that dates were not important to anyone except authorities of those times. You got married when families allowed or thought fit - minors were married in case they got too close? Everyone knew who was married and who was not and so age was never a number, it just wasn't important. Good to be sceptical about these matters?

Seamus Crowe, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Reply

Reply
One image file up to 2 MB.