My name is Vickie Hurst. My mother was Jo Anne Mulgrew. I have done the dna testing with ancestry.com & they say my family is from Tyrone, Londonderry & Antrim. My grandfather was James Joseph Mulgrew(passed I believe in 1956). His parents were John P Mulgrew(1862-1921) & Frances Murphy (1865-1950). Looking for any family that may still be there.
I searched the marriage records for all Ireland but did not find one between John Mulgrew and Frances Murphy. Likewise I searched childrens births 1880 to 1921 for Northern Ireland but did not find any to those parents. Nor can I find deaths for John in 1921 or Frances in 1950, anywhere in Ireland. No James Mulgrew deaths anywhere in Ireland 1950 – 1960.
If I have the correct family on the 1900 US census in Clearfield, Pennsylvania - John Mulgrew and Frances Murphy were both born in Scotland, and their children Margaret, Mary, John & Frank were born in Pennsylvania, but show that both their parents as born Ireland. John is shown as a coal miner born c1862, and Frances born c1865. There's a transcript and image of this return on FamilySearch.
According to the census returns John arrived in the US in around 1882, and the couple married c1895, so looks like next step in the research would be for their marriage in the US, presumably in or near Pennsylvania, to establish the names of their parents and then work from this back to possible births or baptisms in Scotland to find further details and hopefully clues to their Irish origins..
shanew147 yes, this is my family. Thank you so much. My grandfather James was born in Pennsylvania in 1902.
I'm really having trouble finding those records you suggested. Could you please help.
Thanks so much
I believe John & Frances may have been married in Indiana
If this is helpful I did the ancestry dna. It states my family is from Tyrone, Londonderry & Atrim
I'm not an expert in US records but I had a quick look for a marriage of John and Frances, but unfortunately spotted no good matches. I did see that Indiana record - it's looks like a partial index with only very basic details and no dates. I'm not sure it's a marriage though, as it mentions the name of a son James...
I know. So frustrating. I just can't seem to get over this hump. Lol
What about trying to find christening records in Scotland? I think John P father may have also been named John. And there are so many John Mulgrews I don't know how I'll ever find the right family without your help. lol
A starting point could be to get John Mulgrew’s death certificate in the US in 1921 as that should contain his parents names. We can then use that information to search the Scottish records. There are several possible John Mulgrews in the Scottish 1871 census, but without the right set of parents it’s just guesswork.
I note from Shane’s post that John was a coal miner in Pennsylvania. That’s probably what he was in Scotland too. Many Irish labourers moved to Scotland to work in the coal mines (there was no coal in Ireland, so no jobs, but plenty of coal in Scotland and plenty of work) and I note that the possible entries in the 1871 census are all in mining areas around Glasgow. John & Frances parents are likely to have moved to Scotland for work.
The 1900 US census says that John was born in Scotland in Feb 1862. However there is no record on Scotlandspeople of any John Mulgrew born in Scotland that year. So the accuracy of that information has to be suspect. There was one born in Kilsyth (a coal mining area) in 1861 and another there in 1863. They are possibilities but without the parents names there’s no way of knowing. So you need John’s death certificate (or his marriage if you can find it).
If we find John’s birth certificate, provided it was registered in 1861 or later, it should contain details of where and when his parents married. That was routinely recorded on Scottish birth certificates from 1861 onwards. So that may help identify where in Ireland they came from. (Unless they married in Scotland of course).
I wouldn’t rely too heavily on the DNA test. Tracing your origin via that method is about as reliable as a horoscope. You need to follow a paper trail to be sure.
Elwyn,
Reached a cousin who lives in Du Bois, PA. She happens to work at St Catherine of Sienna where John P & Frances were married in 1895. She is sending me a copy of it but it's in latin. lol
Would you be able to help with that?
Vickie,
Yes I did Latin at school. This marriage appears to be between John Mulgrew and a Frances Quinn. Not Murphy. So are you sure this is the right family?
The marriage gives John’s parents as John Mulgrew and Mary Jack, and Francis Quinn’s parents as James Quinn and Sarah McClain. The witnesses were Michael Hagan and Mary Mulgrew.
This is what my cousin found. All of the members of this family belonged to this parish and Frances is buried there. I was surprised to hear the name Quinn as well. I can't believe there was another John Mulgrew married to a woman names Frances in that parish in 1895. But all the other records say Murphy as her last name. So now I'm even more confused than ever
And I believe Mary Mulgrew was John P sister.
I found Frances death notice. Said her father was a John Murphy & it listed her mother's name simply as Doran.
Given the varying information on her parents, I think Frances’ origins are going to be tricky to find.
I searched Scotlandspeople for parents named Mulgrew and Jack and couldn’t find any. I did find a John Mulgrew who married a Mary O’Donnell in Campsie, Stirlingshire in 1862. They had several children: John b 1863, Mary c 1865, James c 1867 and Arthur b 1870. All were born in Scotland save for John senior who was born in Ireland. They were the nearest I could find.
That sounds like a possibility. John born in 1863 could be great great grandfather? Can you find where John Sr was from in Ireland? But Mary wasn't born in Ireland? The census said John P parents were both born in Ireland. I'm also reaching out to my cousin to see if she can find anything else. She works at the parish. Strange thing is there are five plots where Frances is buried, yet the graves around her all have question marks on the paperwork, as if they are not sure who's buried there. Its very strange.
Thanks for helping me, hopefully we can get there.
Vickie
Vickie,
Your information form the US census is that both John & Mary Mulgrew were born in Ireland. The Mary in Kilsyth in the 1871 Scottish census was born nearby (Campsie, Stirlingshire) so that made me wonder if it can be the right family. Her maiden name of O’Donnell would suggest Irish ancestry. So possibly her parents came from Ireland, but she didn’t.
The family are in the 1871 census under GROS ref 483/12/8. You can search earlier and later years on the same site to see where they originated and whether they were still in Scotland in 1881 and later years. The most recent census available in Scotland is for 1911.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
There’s a Mary Mulgrew previously O’Donnell who died in Morningside, Edinburgh in 1910 aged 63 GROS ref 685/6 587. That might be the woman in Kilsyth in the 1871 census.
I am running into a wall here using ancestry.com. I cannot find ANYTHING on the marriage between John & Frances Murphy, I can't find anything on John's death, either. Looking at directories in Du Boid PA it showed John P as head of household in 1900. But then in one from 1907 it showed Frances widowed. Their last child Michael was born in 1904. I found that Frances died in Detroit Mi. in May 1950. But it wasn't the actual certificate. The only death certificate I could see was on their child Walter Mulgrew. I am so very frustrated & do not know where to go from here. John P was a coal miner so I'm not sure if he travelled & was outside of the state when he died?
Elwyn,
I was looking at that family(John & Mary Mulgrew). One thing I noticed is that it listed John the son as a coal miner. John P was a coal miner here in America, also. Isn't it likely he chose the same work when he got to America?
And could you trace this John that was born in Ireland back to his hometown?
Tracing where in Ireland the Kilsyth John Mulgrew came from will be difficult. He was born around 1834 and not all RC parishes in Ireland have records for that period. I think he died in Kilsyth in 1884, aged 49. If you look up his death certificate it should tell you his parents names and occupations, plus whether they were alive or dead at the time of his death. That might be a start. But it won’t tell you where in Ireland he came from, and there’s nowhere in Scotland that that information would routinely be recorded. If his parents happened to be alive and still in Ireland we might find a death certificate for them.
The other thing you could do is try and trace some of that KIlsyth family today. If there are living descendants in Scotland (as seems likely) you might persuade them to do a DNA test.
Looking at the census information, I see the widow Mary and 4 children in Kilsyth in the 1891 census. Then in 1901 they have moved to Inveresk, Midlothian. (That ties in with the likely death I gave you for Mary in Morningside, Edinburgh).
In the 1901 census son Patrick (b c 1879) is in Inveresk but by 1911 he looks to have married and moved back to Kilsyth. You could search to see who he married, where they both died and what children they had. You might find a Scottish will naming his descendants. Likewise you could do the same for the son Arthur who was 8 months old in 1871. There are only 7 Arthur Mulgrew deaths in Scotland 1901 to 2001. The most likely is one who died in Bellshill in 1942 aged 71. Again that death certificate may give you one of his children (as informant) plus he may have left a will.
If you do locate some of the family today, there’s the outside possibility that they may have some information on their origins in Ireland, though where those origins were nearly 200 years previously, the likelihood is not high. But you never know.
But you may need to employ a Scottish researcher to help you pull all this together.
On that site how are you able to look at anything without buying "credits"?
No. You have to register and buy credits.
Vickie,
You wrote in your first message (titled: "Trying to find family in Tyrone"):
< I have done the dna testing with ancestry.com & they say my family is from Tyrone, Londonderry & Antrim. >
Ancestry.com's DNA testing is autosomal, which means it traces both sides of your family -- both your mother's and father's. That kind of test cannot differentiate between one surname and another in your ancestry. Nor can it tell the difference between those lines: maternal/paternal. It's a popular test, but it's a huge melting pot of ancestry that can be very confusing to sort out.
There is no way that autosomal test results can identify that any of your particular ancestors (such as MULGREW, among hundreds of persons in your combined paternal and maternal DNA) came from specific places like Tyrone, Londonderry and Antrim.
If you want to trace the Mulgrews, you should have a male relative who is a direct paternal-line Mulgrew descendant (son of a son of a son of a man with the surname Mulgrew) take the Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, which is one of the best testing companies in the world today.
You might want to organize and sort out your facts -- it will help direct your search more clearly. For instance, since John Mulgrew's wife's maiden name is questionable, what records identify "John Mulgrew" and "Frances Murphy" as a married couple?
In just a brief search, I see that the Pennsylvania death certificates of two men, Walter B. Mulgrew and John P. Mulgrew, found as children in the 1900 Pennsylvania census with the couple named John and Frances Mulgrew, list their parents as John Mulgrew and Frances Murphy.
The marriage of "James Mulgrew" in Indiana in 1935 gives his parents as John Mulgrew and Frances Murphy. James said in this marriage record that he was born in March 7, 1908 in Dubois, Pennsylvania. That indicates that his father was living until at least 9 months earlier (to have fathered the son James). This shortens the time span to search for John Mulgrew's death. It had to have occurred between the 1900 census, when he appears with wife Frances and children, and 1910, when Frances appears as a widow. But obviously he lived to father his son James, so he died between summer-fall 1907 and the date that the 1910 census was taken, which listed Frances as a widow.
I'm sure there are other records (as you mentioned, but didn't explain details) giving "Frances Murphy" as John Mulgrew's wife's name. Was she a Murphy who married someone else, and THEN married John Mulgrew in 1895 -- perhaps therefore with another surname as the bride, and not "Murphy"? Does the marriage record that your cousin "found" state the marital status of the bride and groom (single, widowed, divorced).
I'd also strongly recommend contacting the staff at St. Catherine Cemetery in Dubois, Pennsylvania. They may have burial records of your Mulgrew family, as well as plot purchases and other interment records. Since John Mulgrew died BEFORE his wife, she or a close relative would have had to purchase the cemetery plot. He's probably buried beside her, even though his grave may be unmarked.
Also I'd research Catholic church records in Dubois, for members' names that might include your Mulgrews. Death dates and burial places were sometimes written in church membership ledgers. Elwyn has done some great research for you, and I hope my suggestions will help, as well.
Regards,
Annie Crenshaw (a descendant of County Tyrone and County Monaghan families)
The 1895 application for a marriage license by JOHN MULGREW to FRANCES QUINN (granted/signed April 26th, 1895 in Clearfield County, Pennsylvania) is a viewable image on Ancestry.com, under the database "Pennsylvania, Marriages, 1852-1968."
In this record, the bride and groom answered the questions: "Date of death of man's former wife, if any," and "Date of death of woman's former husband, if any."
John's entry was "none" (meaning that he had no previous wife who died), while Frances' entry was "Jany 31, 1890." So she had a previous husband who died on that date, and she was the widow "Frances Quinn" when she married John Mulgrew in 1895.
John's age was 34 and Frances was 27. Both gave their residence as "DuBois, Pa."
John Mulgrew's parents were "Jno. & Mary," and Frances Quinn's parents were "Jas. & Sarah."
If Frances was 27 or about that age when she married John Mulgrew in 1895, she was born about 1868.
In the 1900 census, counted in DuBois, Clearfield County, Pennsylvania, Frances was 35, born Scotland (no specific date), parents born Ireland, mother of 4 children with 4 living. Her husband John Mulgrew was 38, born Feb. 1862 in Scotland, a coal miner. His parents were born in Ireland. He had been in the U.S. for 12 years and was a naturalized citizen. Frances' immigration year was not given, but in most entries by this particular census taker, only the man's name has an immigration year or years of residence in U.S. With them were children Margaret, 4 (born July 1895), Mary, 3, John, 2, and Frank, 1, all born in Pennsylvania.
In 1910, "Fannie" Mulgrew was living as a housekeeper with the Rayburg family in DuBois. She was 42, widowed, born Scotland, parents born Ireland. She said (or at least it was recorded) that she had emigrated to the U.S. in 1892. She said that she was the mother of 7 children, with 7 living. Counted in the Rayburg household with her was her son Michael, age 6.
In the 1920 census, still living in DuBois, Fannie Mulgrew was 52, born Scotland, parents born Ireland, working as a janitor in a "public office." She had immigrated to the U.S. in 1892 and was a naturalized citizen (both her and her husband John Mulgrew's naturalization records would be important to research). With her were her children: Mary, 22, John, 21, Frank, 20, Walter, 18, James, 17, and Michael, 15. Also living with the Mulgrews was "Margaret Murphy," age 78, born Ireland, an aunt to head of household Fannie Mulgrew (there's an important family relationship to research).
There are many more details in these censuses and others up until Frances Mulgrew's death in 1950. I didn't see her 1950 death record, but you wrote that you << found that Frances died in Detroit Mi. in May 1950. But it wasn't the actual certificate. The only death certificate I could see was on their child Walter Mulgrew.>>
I'm not sure what you mean about finding when and where she died. Was this a newspaper obituary or in a family bible or what source? Anyway, if you already have it, you have whatever information it gives.
Regards,
Annie
Looking for Frances/Fanny Murphy in Scotland:
Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name: Fanny Murphy
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 31 Dec 1866
Birth Place: Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Father: James Murphy
Mother: Sarah Mclean
FHL Film Number:6035516
[These parents' names match the names of the bride's parents on the 1895 marriage of John Mulgrew and the widow Frances Quinn in Pennsylvania, per the Catholic church register (in Latin) that Vickie posted with an earlier message.]
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This appears to be the same Murphy family in the 1881 Scotland Census (still living in Monkland where Fanny was born):
James Murphy - 55 - head
Sarah Murphy - 53 - wife
James Murphy - 20 - son
John Murphy - 17 - son
Fanny Murphy - 14 - daughter - born Baillieston, Lanarkshire - Occupation: Bleachfield Worker
Parish: Old Monkland Western District; ED: 7; Page: 7; Line: 10; Roll: cssct1881_265
Registration Number: 652/1, Registration district: Old Monkland Western District
Civil Parish: Old Monkland Western District, County: Lanarkshire, Address: Dyke Street
Household schedule number: 38
[more details are viewable on original census page]
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I think the "aunt" Margaret Murphy living with Frances/Fannie Mulgrew in the 1920 Pennsylvania census is probably the woman of that name who was married to Michael Murphy. This couple was counted in several Pennsylvania censuses, and they're buried in the same cemetery (St. Catherine's) in DuBois, Clearfield County, PA, as Frances M. Mulgrew. That gives you another line of research, perhaps to find Michael Murphy's marriage to Margaret, their emigration to the U.S. from Ireland, and other records. The place they lived in Ireland may be where the Mulgrews lived in earlier generations, as well, before some of the Mulgrew family went to Scotland and then to the U.S.
Regards,
Annie