Toal and Walsh

Maureen:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

I can't tell if you are looking for more information on the family in the 1800s or present day descendants. Below is the civil birth record for Daniel and the 1892 civil marriage record for his parents which shows the names of the fathers of the bride and groom. You will have to sign-in to see the records.Roger McDonnell

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

I suspect this may be James Toal’s father in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Toome_Upper/Toome/942214/

The name Toal remains common in the Toome area today. The family farm is in Griffiths Valuation as plots 9 & 10 a total of just over 6 acres. There is a way of finding exactly where the farm was located, but to do that you would need to look up the Griffiths maps in Ballymena Library (upstairs in the local studies section), as the on-line maps don’t show it.

This looks to be Catharine’s father and family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballyscullion/Grange_Park/941395/

(In addition to the address matching that on the marriage cert, one of the witnesses to the 1892 marriage was Rose Walsh, and there’s a Toal child lodging with the family).

1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballyscullion/Grange_Park/124609/

Curiously, wife Mary’s place of birth has changed between 1901 and 1911 from Co. Antrim to America.

Francis died around 1915 (according to the Valuation Revision records) and son David took over the farm. There were still Walsh’s farming in Grange Park in 1945:

Walsh David of Grange Park county Antrim farmer died 31 May 1945 Probate Belfast 4 December to Daniel Walsh farmer. Effects £386 10s.

(Above information from the PRONI wills site. The full will is in PRONI in Belfast in paper format).

The farm was close to Grange Rd and to Cross Keys Rd, close to Ballyscullion Church of Ireland. It appears in Griffiths Valuation as plots 15 & 16, a total of 14 acres. Again the exact location isn’t shown on the on-line maps but you can get it from Ballymena Library local studies section.

I don’t see any Walsh households listed in Grange Park in the current phone book, but that’s not conclusive since so many people aren’t listed these days. If you enquire in the Cross Keys Inn or around Millquarter, you should be able to find out if there are any there today.

If looking for Gravestones for the Walsh’s, start with Ballyscullion graveyard on Loughbeg Rd but the family might have used Moneyglass Chapel, just outside Toome. The Toals might also have attended that chapel but they might also have used Cargin, on the Staffordstown Rd. It has a graveyard too.

Maureen,

I looked for the birth of the Owen Toal, who appears aged 7 in the 1901 census for Grange Park. There’s only 1 suitable event. He was born 7.5.1893 in Toome to James Toal, labourer, and Catherine Walsh.

I live in the Toome area and if your cousin wants any guidance when she’s over, tell her to contact me on: Ahoghill@irelandxo.com

Maureen,

Owen Toal wasn’t a twin. He was born 7.5.1893 in Toome. His brother David was born 30.3.1894 at 44 Ship St, Belfast. You can view both these births on this site:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

(Click on civil records).

If your mother doesn't recall a David in the fmamily, then perhaps he died? Have you searched for a death for him?

The Mary Toal in the 1901 census was Mary Ann McCormick who was married to Daniel Toal. So apparently a brother to James Toal who married Catherine Walsh in 1893.

You enquired in another post about information on when the family moved to Scotland. There are no passenger records for ferries to Scotland. Scotland is only 13 miles from Ireland at the closest point and it was (and still is) just a short domestic ferry taking a few hours. No passenger records exist for that type of voyage. And people went back and forth all the time, as they still do. The beauty of working in somewhere like Scotland was that you could come home for the weekend, for a wedding or whatever. Large numbers of Irish people from Ulster went to Scotland. Many then went on the USA and elsewhere. It’s called stepped migration.

Daniel Walsh married Mary Quinn. I got that from the birth of their son Daniel Welch (spelling) who was born at Grange Park on 20.9.1870. You can view that on the irishgenealogy site.

I looked for their marriage but did not find it in Ireland. Perhaps they married in the USA?

The Irish and the Scots did follow the same naming pattern but I wouldn’t rely on it too heavily as many things can skew it. The tradition followed these

rules:

The 1st son was usually named after the father's father

  The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father

   The 3rd son was usually named after the father

    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother

     The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother

 The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother

  The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother

   The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother

    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister

     The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are:

1. when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can’t really have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name is needed (though some families did actually use the same name again, but differentiated with another more informal name. So if you had two Georges (as per birth certs) you just called one of them something else eg Simon;
2. if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. And if you don’t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong;
3. Or if a close relative had just died and their name was used out of respect.
4. I have also noticed that many families liked to name the odd child after the local Minister/Priest, schoolteacher or a relative with no children of their own.
5. Sometimes people were christened with one name, but went by a different one (and would appear in censuses and other records by that alternative name).

So for all these reasons, whilst tradition says, for example, that the 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother, it isn’t always so.

I suspect that Francis’s marriage, James & Kathleen’s births etc are all before the start of statutory registration in 1864.  You could search the Duneane parish records on Ancestry or the NLI site to see if you can find them there. 

Ages were out all the time in the censuses and on death and marriage certificates. In the 1800s and early 1900s in Ireland people didn’t celebrate birthdays and often didn’t know exactly how old they were. Their ages are often just guesses.

The David Walsh in the 1911 census gives his age as 41. That was pretty accurate. He was born at Grange Park on 20.9.1870 to Daniel Walsh and Mary Quin(n). He’s the same person who appears in the 1901 census aged 25. The age is just out by 6 years that’s all. That was fairly common in those days, as is evidenced by other members of the same family.

David Walsh married Sarah Drain.

Daniel Walsh married Mary Quinn around 1869. They had 6 children of which 4 were still alive in 1911.

Rose Walsh was born 29.11.1875; Mary Anne was born 10.7.1874. Parents Daniel Walsh & Mary Quinn. You can view the certificates on this link:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Rose Walsh married William Martin a labourer from Gillistown, on 16.4.1903 at Moneyglass Chapel, Toome. I don’t see them in the 1911 census so suspect they left Ireland soon after they married.

Other children to Daniel Walsh & Mary Quinn:

Henry 27.8.1869

Catherine 8.12.1871

The picture of the census that you refer to is the original paper entry completed and signed by Daniel Walsh, and which has then been computerized to make it easier to find and read. In 1901 Daniel completed and signed the census return himself. In 1911 he got the enumerator to complete it and then just signed it.

Maureen,

I think you may struggle to get back much earlier than Francis Toal b c 1830. The records you need probably don’t exist.

I presume this is Frances & Sara in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Toome/Brecart/125074/

You say that you don’t think Rose is Francis’s brother. I suspect he is her brother. (They both appear to have fathers named Francis anyway).

I looked up the birth of Francis Gribben, born in Motherwell. He was born on 6.12.1896 to George Gribben and Rose Toal who had married on 29.4.1887 in Duneane. (Scottish birth certificates helpfully record where and when the parents married). Rose died in Motherwell in 1902 aged 34. The 1887 marriage certificate tells us that Rose’s father was Frances Toal, fisherman. She was from Toome. Rose was born 1859 according to her marriage certificate.  Rose’s marriage:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10799/5938303.pdfc

Francis’s marriage to Sarah McCormick which confirms his father’s name was also Francis:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11071/8050744.pdf

The only Toals I can see in the 1841/1851 census extracts were:

Mary Anne Toal who applied for a pension in 1916 (suggesting a birth c 1846). Her parents were John & Eliza Toal from Culnafay. 6 miles from Toome.

Thomas Kerrigan who applied in 1920 (suggesting a birth c 1850). His parents were James Kerrigan & Rose Toal and they lived in Taylorstown or Kilnock. Both of which are about 4 or 5 miles from Toome. The clerk reported finding James & Rose in Kilnock but not a son Thomas. However the subsequent entry does record Thomas so perhaps a mistake was made.

Sarah Kerrigan (married name McQuade) who applied in 1921. Same parents as Thomas above.  Her townland in 1851 was Kilnock and the enumerator found a census entry for that with Agnes, Bernard, Mary, William, Rose, Thomas &  Lizzie. Presumably all siblings. So this James & Rose must have married in 1841 or earlier. So they’d likely be born 1810 – 1820 or thereabouts.

I can add another Toal census extract taken from Josephine Masterson’s book on Northern Irish census extracts. Some census extracts are held in PRONI and are not included on the nli website (which was compiled from those held in Dublin). However they are in Mastersons’ book.

This is from the 1851 census and lists Bernard Toal head married 1820, wife Bridget Graham, James 19, Biddy 16, Rose Kerrigan (grand-daughter) 6. Absent on census night were Bernard 24 son, Mary 20, daughter. Deceased since 1841 were John aged 26. No date of death. The family lived in Duneane.

Bernard Toal is the only Toal farming in Duneane in the tithes in 1833. He could be related to Francis (b c 1830) but he doesn’t appear to be his father because he isn’t mentioned in the census extract. Plus Bernard doesn’t appear to be a family name in your particular tree. Hard to piece together at this distance.

If you are going to PRONI you could look up the O’Neill estate records. The land around Toome was owned by the O’Neills of Shane’s Castle. Their farming tenants estate books for 1829 & 1831 have survived (T1024/1 & T 1024/2 in PRONI). Those books show who was farming each farm, and also what lease they held. Many of the farmers held leases granted in the 1790s for 3 lives, so if the Toals were amongst them you might get a snapshot of who was there in the 1790s. Worth checking. (The rest of the O’Neill estate records were lost when their castle burned down in a fire in 1822).

Maureen,

You are not convinced that Francis & Rose are brother and sister? Fair enough, but that rather raises the question of why was the man in the census looking after Rose’s child after her death? They share the same father’s name and both came from Toome. I am sure they are related somehow. I can’t find a baptism for any Francis Toal c 1855 so I don’t know who his mother was. There do appear to have been 2 Francis Toals living there in the 1850s. The other one was married to Catherine McKiernan. So perhaps that’s who this is. They had a son Daniel baptised 29.9.1858. That’s the only child I can find.

The Irish (and Scottish) naming pattern does tend to ensure that the same names get repeated endlessly in each generation. If a couple have say 4 sons, then those 4 sons will use the same names for all their children, as will, in turn, those children. So after a few generations you can have dozens of people with the same name. It can be confusing. In some places they use nicknames to tell them apart, eg “red hair” or “postman” etc.

Regarding the O’Neill estate records, they are not on-line. They are a pair of paper ledgers. You have to go into PRONI in person to look them up. (Take photo id for your fist visit, to get a reader’s card).