Thomas Wilson (again) new info

There was a marriage between a Thomas Wilson and Mary Breen in Fermanagh on 28th August 1846. You might want to look at that to see if the information fits your Thomas. You can view the certificate on-line on the GRONI site for £2.50.

Colin,

Thanks for the info. It’s Julia who is interested in the family. I am simply offering her advice on where to look. She hasn't responded to my message of 26th July so far. I did have a look at the 1846 marriage on rootsireland, and that Thomas was from Gortmessan. That’s the same townland as he gave when he remarried in 1872, so that would seem to be his first marriage. (Mary Ann Breen was from Relagh. Her father Robert is listed farming there in Griffiths Valuation in 1862).

There were 4 Wilson households in Gortmessan in 1901, 1 of which was Church of Ireland and 3 Methodist. In earlier years though, before Methodism became established in Ireland, they would have been Church of Ireland.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Ballydoolagh/Gortmesson/

Relagh is in Magheracross parish. Their Church of Ireland records start in 1800. Gortmessan is in Derryvullan where there are 2 main churches. Derryvullan North has records from 1803. Derryvullan South lost it’s earlier records in the 1922 fire in Dublin, and has nothing before the 1870s. So those are the records I would look at if trying to trace the Wilson & Breen families. Breen is likely an alternative spelling of Brien/Bryan etc but it;s how the name is spelled in botht the 1846 marriage certificate and in Griffiths VAluation so it needs to be borne in mind when searchign records. By 1901 the name was Brien. The fmaily were Methodist then but would originally have been COI. 1 Brien household in relagh in 1901: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Newparton/Re…

Julia,

I am fairly sure the 1846 marriage is Thomas Wilson’s first marriage. The townland, his occupation and father’s name all fit. If Mary Ann died between 1846 and 31.12.1863 you won’t get a death certificate. They were only introduced in 1864.

By 1901 your household was Methodist but we don’t know when they changed to that denomination. Colin says they are likely to have attended Enniskillen Methodist church. Their baptism records start in 1823, and there’s a copy in PRONI. Their marriages start in 1864 but will also be on-line on the GRONI site. Methodists don’t keep burial records.

Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1815 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for years after this and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find many Methodist baptisms before 1820. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

Colin says that if Church of England/Ireland the family is likely to have attended either Garvary Church or St McCartan’s. Unfortunately their early records were both destroyed in the 1922 fire and they have nothing before about 1877 now.

You have given details of 3 children born after 1864 to Thomas & Mary Ann, ie Margaret Jane 11th Feb. 1865, George & Elizabeth (no dates known). However I checked the birth for Margaret Jane. There is a birth on that date registered in Enniskillen, but the parents were Thomas Wilson and Margaret Livingstone and they lived in Mullyknock. So not your family. I can’t see any children born to Thomas and Mary Ann between 1864 and 1872 in the statutory records and so suspect she died before 1864. That could explain why you can’t find her death certificate.

Julia,

It’s hard to get away from the fact that we cannot find any children born in the period 1864 to 1872 to parents named Wilson and Breen/Brien (or similar). It’s easy to check all the Enniskillen births in that period on the GRONI site as it helpfully shows mother’s previous name(s).    Plus you can’t find a death certificate for Mary Ann either, 1864 – 1872.  To me, both of those factors point to her dying before 1864.

If Mary Ann Breen was married in 1846 she could easily have produced 7 children between 1847 and 1863. It’s possible that your information about the order of births is correct but some of the years are wrong. Clearly the 1865 Margaret Jane is to another couple and so can be discounted. There’s then no proof, as I see it, that any of the children were born after 1864.  Ages on death certificates are notoriously unreliable but Margaret Jane’s death in Dublin in 1930 gives her age as 71, so born c1859. So perhaps that’s correct and she was followed by George & Elizabeth 1860 -1863? George doesn’t have a birth certificate, so what proof is there that he was born in 1867? Perhaps it might have been 1862?

Farmers tended to be able to afford a gravestone so one possibility for you is to search for Mary Ann’s gravestone, starting perhaps at Garvary Church of Ireland. Another possibility is to search the Enniskillen Methodist records (which should cover the years you are interested in) in PRONI to try and find the children’s baptisms.  That could resolve who was born when, unless they were baptised at Garvary Church of Ireland, whose records for that period were burned.

Finally, I found a marriage for Elizabeth Wilson. She married Robert Dundas, a shopkeeper from Derrygonnelly, on 30.7.1880. She gave her age as “full age” which, if correct meant she was 21 or over, and so born before 1859. And she was reportedly the youngest of the 7 children, was she not? She could not have been born in the late 1860s if she was married in 1880.

Elizabeth married at Garvary Church of Ireland (helpfully confirming that this may be the family church, or if Methodist that they still used the COI for marriages). 2 children   born to the couple: Unnamed female 7.9.1882 and Robert Wilson Dundas 23.5.1884 both born Derrydonnelly. I don’t see the family in the 1901 census and so suspect they may have left Ireland.

I think this may be Robert Dundas and his son Robert in the 1911 census. Robert appears to have been mistranscribed as Joseph. I think Robert’ senior’s occupation is “county posting establishment”.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_South/Wellington_Place/516699/

I looked for Elizabeth’s death but could not locate it, nor could I see the family in the 1901 census.

Robert senior died 19.2.1919 in Enniskillen Workhouse Infirmary of heart failure.

Julia,

I think you are correct. You were fixed on Margaret Jane being born in 1865 (and having 2 younger siblings). Once we acknowledge the 1865 birth is probably the wrong lady, then that opens the way for your Margaret Jane to be born in the 1850s. As I mentioned previously, her sister Elizabeth – reportedly the youngest of the children - married in 1880, so she really has to have been born in the late 1850s, or early 1860s at the latest. She could not be born in the late 1860s as she’d only have been 11 or 12 when she married.   I think all the children of the first marriage were born in the period 1846 – 1863. I think Thomas’s first wife died before 1864.

Your list says that Elizabeth was 4 when her mother died.  I suspect therefore Elizabeth was born c 1859 (to make her full age when she married in 1880) and her mother died c 1863. Certainly before 1864 as there is no death certificate.

Colin’s going to have a look at St McCartin’s records for you so that may throw something up. According to the PRONI catalogue, this is a summary of the records St McCartins has:

“[Formerly known as Enniskeen or Inniskeen]

[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]

Extracts of baptisms, 1667-1789, marriages, 1668- 1794, and burials, 1667-1781; burials, 1879-1907 and 1941-50;vestry minutes, 1731-1920; copy deeds, 1796-9; select vestry minutes, 1871-80; register of church members, 1871 and 1946-50; preachers’ book, 1895-1928.

Extracts from baptism, marriage and burial registers, 1666-1826.

Printed copy of Old Enniskillen Vestry Book, with extracts of births, marriages and deaths, 1666-c.1797.

Extracts from vestry minutes, 1666-1912, which include some baptism, marriage and burial entries.

Baptisms, 1861-; marriages, 1845-. (In local custody)”.

NB In local custody means those particular records are still held by the church. PRONI doesn’t have a copy. However the marriages are on-line on the GRONI site, so it’s only the baptisms from 1861 onwards that have to be accessed at the cathedral.

On the face of it there are no baptisms for the 1840s or 1850s but perhaps that’s wrong.  And perhaps 1 or 2 of the younger children appear in the baptisms for 1861 onwards (but I don't think there will be any because if the mother died 4 years later, that would be post 1864 and there ought to be a death certificate). Let’s see what Colin finds.