seekinginfo on Thomas Smith RIC and wife Frances. I believe he was stationed in Wicklow from 1870 to 1878. Perhaps in Bray. And may have lived in area longer. His teenage children included Henrietta, Henry who married Rachel Bagley from Kilternanarea, and Annie who married Daniel Hearn from Monkstown. His wife Frances may be buried in the area, he is buried in Dublin. Religion is COI. Thank you .
Tracing exactly where your Thomas served and lived in Co. Wicklow could be difficult - the usual sources would be residences on baptisms/births, marriage or deaths. Have you located baptisms for the two children you mentioned ?
I presume you already have the service record for Thomas which usually just mentions county of birth, sometimes also county of birth of his wife and their date of marriage.. the only promising match in Newspaper articles - a "Sub-Inspector Smith" in the Wicklow Newsletter and County Advertiser on Michaelmas Quarter Sessions October 1872 seem to suggest that he was based in Wicklow town, which narrows the area down a bit..
It might be an idea to check for newspaper notices on the children's marriages to see if a place of residence for the parents are mentioned. I see that Thomas and Frances married in Co. Meath in 1834 in Trim Church of Ireland - did Frances come from the Trim area ?
Searching for a death for Frances could take a bit of work due to the very common name - do you have an est. year of birth for her ? does the death of Thomas indicate if he was widowed when he died ? where exactly in 'Dublin' did he live ?
p.s. Rachel's surname looks more like Bayly to me - see her 1871 marriage to Henry, her residence is Kigobbin, which is near Kilternan, residence for Henry is recorded as just 'Dublin'. Daniel and Annie both give Monkstown as residence at the time of thier marriage in 1874. Rache's father is mentioned in directories e.g. in 1868 he's a magistrate of Petty Sessions at Dundrum in South County Dublin, and in the alphabetical index listed as "Emanuel Jas. Bayly esq. J . P . Kilgobbin, Stepaside"
Ktsats,
I have a copy of Jim Herlihy’s book- Royal Irish Constabulary Officers – a biographical dictionary 1816-1922. It lists all the Inspectors in the RIC. There’s only 3 Thomas Smiths listed. One was born in 1863 and may be disregarded. Another was born in 1805 in Co Meath and died in Ballina, Mayo.
The only one that seems likely to fit your man was born 1811 Co. Dublin. Started in the PPF (Peace Protection Force) enlisted as a sub constable 27.8.1828, constable 1.11.1829, wife a native of Limerick, daughter born 17.1.1851 at Rathkeale, daughter born 6.9.1856 at Ballymullen (Cork); 3rd Sub Inspector 18.2.1832; County Inspector 11.9.1852; pensioned 1.1.1872; died 10.8.1893 Dublin and is buried in Mount Jerome.
Dublin Daily Express of 14.8.1893 has a death notice. August 10th at 2 Winton Rd, Leeson Park. Thomas Smith late DI RIC. Only son of the late Thomas Smith Esq of Courtown, Co. Westmeath.
Not certain it’s your man, but if it is, perhaps it might add a couple of details you don’t currently have.
I located the R.I.C. records for that Thomas Smith, he was a sub-inspector the various dates recorded match exactly, however I dont think he fits your clues, there's no mention of county Tyrone or Wicklow - this Thomas was born City of Dublin, served in counties Tipperary, Limerick, Tipperary, Cork, Kerry, Limerick Carlow & Kerry, wife born Co. Limerick.
I found another Thomas Smith sub-inspector that does look a better match - appointed 13th June 1842[?], age 36 years 10 months, native county Meath, Protestant, married, wife born 'Dublin' served in the the following counties - Meath, Sligo, Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone & Wicklow. It looks like he rejoined the R.I.C. as his first of several promotions, to sub-Constable, is shown as 2nd July 1823, he was later promoted to Constable, 1st Head Constable, and 2nd Head Constable... The notes on his record mention a presentation from the residents of Buncrana, and good service pay. It looks like he retired on the 1st August 1875 on annual pension of £255, plus £80 from the Coast F.[?] fund. Based on year and county of birth, this Thomas Smith is much a better match to the third of those mentioned by Elwyn in the previous post...
A listing of officers dated 1872-1875 confirms that a Thomas Smith 1st sub-inspector was based at Wicklow town.
Thank you all. Yes, shanew147, that is the Thomas I am working with. I have almost all info on the family, except for wife Frances’ death. One of their sons’ widow Rachel Bayly Smith moved to Isle of Wight, where she lived and died. There was a Frances Smith who died in Wight. Thought maybe it was her, living there, helping out with granddaughters after Thomas retired! This is why I am trying to find out where Thomas and Frances were 1875 to 1884. Thomas is buried in Mount Jerome Cemetery, but not in same grave as his daughters. Frances is not with him.
I also looked at the Wicklow newspapers, and there was one that mentioned he was at court in Bray and Kingstown, as well as being at Wicklow court.
Another question where is Courtown co Meath? Is that an older name for Trim? I found a Cortown castle. Also why wouldn’t Thomas be listed in the Royal Constabulary Book? I couldn’t find a service number for him.
To confirm these different sub-inspector Thomas Smiths, I followed up a little further - Thomas Smith (1) born 'City of Dublin', wife born County Limerick, served mostly in the mid-west including County Kerry. This Thomas is mentioned is several newspaper articles including one on his death in 1893 which mentions served 20 years in County Kerry. The informant on the death is a son Thomas.
Your Thomas (2) is the one born County Meath, wife born 'Dublin' served several counties including Tyrone and Wicklow, retired 1st August 1875, his pension record mentions Wicklow, and a page includes a reference to his date of death, and a note stating '..balance paid to Frances Jane Smith, his daughter..', the date matches that death registered off Leeson Park in Dublin - also in 1893.
I'm not sure if the biography details have been mixed up...neither died in Ballina...
Senior Officers seem to be listed in the records separately, and I see no mention of the usual service numbers, which can make it difficult to trace them - especially when there are 'duplicate' names.
The 'Courtown' reference that Elwyn found mentions County Westmeath, which is adjacent to County Meath - this does not seem to an official placename as there's no town or townland of that name that I can see in Westmeath, it could be a local placename, or the name of a house/estate... The placename database includes a location in Co. County Meath named Courtown, this is shown as a sub-townland, or local name, it's located west of the town of Navan and is within Meadstown townland, which is in Clonmacduff civil parish.
Back to the original questions...
After he transferred to Co. Wicklow Thomas served in Wicklow town, families usually lived nearby. I dont see any mention of him serving in other nearby stations - directory lists (Thom's) show him posted as Sub-inspector in Wicklow town right up to 1875 when he retired. As a senior officer he may have been required to attend courts in nearby areas to testify. Kingstown Co. Dublin, now Dún Laoghaire, was part of the Dublin Metropolitan Police area, a seperate but related force.
What's the last documented evidence you have on Frances after the baptisms of the children ?
If she died after the start of civil registration of deaths in 1864, her death should have been registered - and I would think as a senior police officer Thomas would have been well aware of the process. Wicklow town is in Rathdrum registration district, and over the period 1872 to 1893, when Thomas is shown as a widower on his death, there are no Frances Smith deaths listed for the Rathdrum district.
Extending the search area north brings us to Rathdown district which covered north County Wicklow (inc. Bray) and south east County Dublin (inc. Monkstown, Stepaside etc) shows 4 deaths of Frances Smith - one of these is too young and unmarried, another is a widow in Killiney, There are two additional death which do not have register images available yet on the IrishGenealogy website - one in 1879 reported age 65, so born c1807, and another that seems a little too young who died 1876 reported age 48 (c1828).
There are about 11 deaths in Dublin city districts (Dublin North & South) including three without register images ... I looked through the others to check, but none of these match, either ages/est. year of birth did not fit, they were unmarried or widow, or occupation/occupation of husband did not match..
It's worth keeping an eye out for updates to the IrishGenealogy website to check the details of the earlier deaths to see if one of these could match your Frances.
p.s. you mentioned in the other post that you found Thomas living in Dublin in 1884 - what was the source of this information ? also if you have the address that could help searching for further details...
The only snippet I can add about the RIC is that the Inspectors didn't have service numbers. They were looked upon as "Officers" are in military units, and were different to "other ranks.". If they joined the RIC as a trainee Inspector, they appear in the records with "cadet" instead of a service number. Then once they became substantive a sub-Inspector they appear just to have been identified by their name. However where someone worked their way up through the ranks (and quite a few did), then there should be a service number for the first part of their career.
Thank you all again. I have been looking over the newspaper clippings I saved from the British newspapers site. I found a testimony that Thomas Smith gave in 1871 in Dungannon , where he mentioned his wife, so she was alive then! He moved within the year to Wicklow. The Frances Smith who died on IOW was 80, and died in 1886, so she wasn’t correct either!
I have a death registration for Thomas. He died in 1893, from senility, address was 2 Winton Rd. Dublin, and he is buried at Mount Jerome. There is photo of his Children’s tombstone with him being mentioned as father, but according to records, is in another grave. I have not found any photo of that yet. Also have his death notice in paper.
Another question I have is about finding enrollment records for the Royal Ulster Constabulary . Thomas’ third son Frederick Charles Smith b. 1848, enlisted about 1865 to go to NZ to fight in the Maori wars. I can not find any record or news clipping of his birth in Buncrana, co Donegal Ire. His only records are what was found in NZ
Likewise I ca not find any info other than a birth register on his brother George Alexander Smith born in co Meath in 1838. Other siblings born in Buncrana were found by newspaper birth announcements and a couple of registered birth records. Would Proni have records for Fahan parish?
Ktsats
Ktsats,
You mention looking for “enrollement records for the Royal Ulster Constabulary.” That force didn’t come into being till 1922. Prior to that year, the RIC covered the whole of Ireland (save for Dublin City which had a separate force - the Dublin Metropolitan Police).
You ask about parish records for Fahan. I assume its Church of Ireland records you are interested in. Fahan consists of 2 parishes (Lower & Upper). Fahan Lower has baptisms and burials from 1817 onwards, and marriages from 1822. Fahan Upper has baptisms for 1762-1824, 1827 & 1835 onwards. Marriages for 1814 and 1817 onwards, burials for 1832, 1843 and 1849 onwards.
Those records are in PRONI but you would need to go in person (or get a researcher to go for you). The Church of Ireland is putting all its surviving records on-line on the irishgenealogy site but they have not yet said when that will go live. It’s a mammoth task and may take a year or so.
Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net
Elwyn, Thank you for that info. I did not know that Proni would even have the records. We will be able to spend time there in mid Sept. Would I need to make a reservation to view the records? I have searched some of their probate records on line records on line.
Ktsats,
No appointment is required for PRONI. You do need to take your passport or photo id for the first visit to get your reader’s ticket. That just takes a couple of minutes. Late opening is Thursday evenings till 9.00pm.
The RIC records are on microfilm in the room with the other microfilmed records. There’s a surname index film if you don’t know someone’s service number. With the service number, you just draw the film which contains that number. The PRONI staff will show you how to do that. If you want to take a photocopy, 2 of their microfilm readers are linked to printers and it costs 30p a page to print them.