Thomas Burke/Bourke and Mary Ryan

Hi Fran,

I attach a copy of the Marriage of a Thomas Bourke and Mary Ryan - 1825 in Co. Limerick., also the records for Edmond 1831 and Mary 1833.

They were baptised in Parteen which is a few miles on the Limerick City side of Doonass (Clonlara)

Boher Murroe is on the border of Counties Limerick and Tipperary.

Let me know if they are likely to be your family. Note: Mary Ryan is the mother of Edmond and Mary.

Credits: www.rootsireland.ie

Regards,

Thanks so much for your amazingly fast reply and all the effort you have gone to, I really appreciate it!! I was so excited to see your email!! Unfortunately though, I don' think any of it is a match. 

My Mary Ryan was born in 1818 in Tipperary so this can't be her in your information as she would have only been 7 years old in 1825. (I have attached the transcript of Thomas and Mary's marriage from St Mary's Church Sydney in 1848.) She was Thomas' second wife. Also Mary couldnt be Edmond's mother as she would have only been 13 in 1833.

I don't know what happened to the first wife or the 3 boys (Patrick, Edmund & William). If Thomas came to Australia around 1843, surely he would have brought his family? He married Mary Ryan in1848, so I'm not quite sure what happened to his 'first' family in between 1843 and 1848. I have never been able to find any shipping records with their names on it. I thought his first wife must have died and he re-married, but I have never been able to find any information about the three boys in any of the family notices/obituaries etc or any of the information from the Armidale NSW Family History Group. So maybe they never came out from Ireland? Maybe Thomas came as a convict? I'm not sure. It's been my headache for the last 20 years trying to solve this mystery.

I have also attached Thomas' death certificate for you to see, maybe you are able to decipher Thomas' mothers maiden name from it?  Maybe that would be helpful?

Once again, thanks so much for all your help, I really do appreciate it, but unfortuanately I don't think this is my 3x great grandparents. 

Kindest Regards

Fran

Sorry I forgot to mention, in Thomas' Probate and Will (attached below) from 1877 & 1878, it states his 'eldest son' is Thomas.

Thomas (1848-1928) is his first born son from his second marriage to Mary Ryan. When in actual fact his eldest son would be Patrick (b1833). On Thomas' death certificate it states only one child from his first marriage was dead before 1877. 

So confusing I know and such a mystery.

Again Thanks for your help

Fran

Hi Fran,

Sorry that I am unable to help with the name of Thomas's mother.  The records for Doonass do not begin until 1851.

In the Tithe Records which can be accessed on the Clare library Web site - www.clare.ie has a William Burke Lakile (Lakyle) Roots Ireland has a record of a "John Bourke" who was baptised in Parteen in1832. His father is recorded as "William" - possible sibling to Thomas?

Now that you have posted the detail, there is a possibility that someone will pick up.

Good Luck with it.

Thanks McCoy, I really appreciate your effort in trying to help me. Hopefully one day I will find the answer

Regards

Fran

Hi Fran 

Thomas and Mary were also GGG grandparents.  Mary Jane (Bourke) Doran being my GG grandmother, and from there to Giles.  My siblings and I would love to know anything at all you might find out about them as we are totally stumped.  Many thanks for the Clare / Limerick connection.  

MauziF

Hi Fran

I’m MauziF’s brother. It’s nice to find a co-conspirator who has been bashing their head against this same brick wall for as long as we have.

Looks like you may have done slightly better than us though, well done. It seems you’ve come from another leg of the family that we hadn’t been able to find. We’ve only known of Thomas then from Mary Jane onwards as that is our line. We couldn’t find a connection to any possible siblings of Mary Jane as we’ve been looking for a Thomas Bourke and Mary White, although Mary Ryan was also on the radar. Mary has always been our uncertain variable.

The Pioneer Register of New England has our Mary Jane as born 21st August 1846 with her mother being Mary White. My eldest sister Liz also has other info that links a Thomas to a Mary White, married at St Mary’s, with research she did way back, 80’s-90’s, pre internet days. You may have come across the same in your research.

The only other info we had on Thomas was Mary Jane’s marriage notice, 1863, which states Mary Jane, only daughter of Mr Thomas Bourke, Mihi Creek. ……Mihi Creek is only a stone’s throw from Kangaroo Hills.

We could never find a link between Thomas and the Uralla Bourke’s but for a while now our next move had been to photograph Uralla cemetery (as of a few of years ago this hadn’t been done but maybe it has now) and try to find a link. However, it sounds like you are probably on top of all that.

Mary Jane, in marrying James Doran moved to the Glen Innes area then to Yarrowyck and all the Uralla Doran’s sprang from there. We have a lot of info on the Doran’s.

Interesting you having two gg’s from the same family. At least it means one less leg for you to have to research ;)  Shame that leg is such a brick wall.

We haven’t done a lot on our family history for a few years now but occasionally stick our noses in for another look. It would be nice to have a chat with you. I’m on 0412442200 if you’d like to get in touch.

Hi MauziF and MickG, 

Thanks for getting in touch. Was so excited to get a message from you both in regards to Thomas and Mary!! It has been a headache of mine for a very long time (and looks like for you as well)

I have never come across the name Mary White in my research. The only reason being, Mary Ryan is listed on Thomas' death certificate as his second wife. (I have attached Thomas' death certificate in previous post for you to see.)

The information I have about their daughter Mary Jane (Doran) is as follows -

Mary Jane Bourke born 1847 in Redfern Sydney NSW - died 1928 Uralla NSW. She married James Lawrence Doran (b; 1841 Yarrowitch NSW- d;1919 Uralla NSW) in 1863 in Armidale NSW. (I have attached both their obituary notices below for you)

Children of Mary Jane and James Doran were -

• Mary Ann (b 1865 Wellingrove NSW - d 1894 Glen Innes) married Alfred John Giles (b 1862 Armidale NSW - d 1948 Glen Innes NSW) ....I have attached their Obituaries below also.
• Sarah J Doran ( 1867 Wellingrove - 1898 Uralla)
• Margaret Doran (1869 - 1907 Inverell NSW) married Thomas Williams
• Thomas Vincent Doran (1870 Bendemeer NSW - 1958 Armidale NSW) married Frances Dowling
• William Doran (1872 Wellingrove - 1958 Sydney) married Catherine Masterson
• James Lawrence Doran (1874 Wellingrove - 1959 Coolah NSW) married Maria Faulkner
• Catherine Doran (1876 Wellingrove - 1901 Uralla NSW)
• Joseph Doran (1878 Armidale - 1960 Armidale) married Lily May Barnden
• Elizabeth Lucy Doran (1880 Yarrowyck NSW - 1963 Rockdale NSW) married Frederick Hunt
• Ruth Doran (1883 Uralla - 1905 Uralla) married Randolph Albert Hutchison
• Sylvester Michael Doran (1886 Yarrowyck - 1954 Sydney ) married Agnes Katherine Missen
• Gertrude Helena Doran (1889 Armidale - 1960 Sydney) married Arthur Turner

Let me know what you think after reading through all this 

Regards

Fran

Yes, we do have all of that on the Doran's but thanks anyway Fran. 

When James Doran and Mary Jane first married they moved up to Stonehenge Station just out of Glen Innes. Most of the children were born up there. (Wellington was just the nearest registry office) James then bought land down at Yarrowyck and moved all of the family down there except Mary Ann who stayed behind and married Alfred Giles. From Yarrowyck the rest of the kids all migrated towards Uralla. Liz, Maureen and myself are Giles's (& nees) another three steps on. Our father grew up in Deepwater.

I know there are plenty of Bourkes around the Uralla area. I guess you've worked out who is related and who isn't. Obviously another family or two came out. They seem to have mostly come out from Tipperary. 

I find it interesting that on Mary Jane's marriage notice it lists her father Thomas as Mihi Creek and there has been a Henry (or two) with land at Mihi Creek since at least the 1880's. Now too, on the death certificate you have, I see he was a Selector and from Kangaroo Hills which had a Patrick with land in the 1880's. All after Thomas died but thats as far as the land maps go back. I know there are a couple of Patricks and Henrys in Uralla Cemetery that don't fit with Thomas but might he have been an uncle?  Just interesting them being in those two vicinities. Did one or both continue on with his land maybe?

Did any of Thomas's boys stay in the area or did they move away?

Too many questions but you probably already know a lot of those answers. As I said I/we'd love to have a chat with you. I'm in Coffs Harbour. My mbl is 0412442200. I'm home every night at the moment. 

Funny that!

Ok, so we have the same information about Mary Jane. Just thought I'd check as you said your Mary Jane was born in the New England area to Mary White. That's good we are on the same page.

Yes, I have always struggled with the connection of the Uralla Bourkes as well. There are so many around that area, but I haven't been able to work it out either. Maybe they were distant cousins or something.

Interesting you say your father grew up in Deepwater. My great aunt (Noreen Bourke) married Charles Henry Moule who was born in Deepwater in 1922. I wonder if your dad knew of the Moule's?

Thanks for the information about James and Mary Jane, it's nice to fill in the blanks. I don't really know much about Mary Jane's side as my connection is through her brothers George and Michael.

The Bourke trail I have is as follows -

• Mary & Thomas married Sydney. I actually have 2 marriage transcripts for them.The first one says they married 18 Aug 1847 and the second says they married 10th Aug 1848. Both have the same names, witnesses etc on them. I assume the 1847 date is correct as Mary Jane was born that year.
• First child of marriage was born 1847 (being Mary Jane) in Redfern
• Second child Thomas was born in Hillgrove in 1848
• Third child, Michael is born in 1849 back in Redfern
• Then there is a bit of a gap and the fourth child, John appears in 1854, baptised in the Parish of 'St James Cumberland' (which was St Mary's Cathedral) in April of that year in Sydney
• In 1856 John died age 2 yrs, but I am not sure if he died in Sydney or elsewhere. I am waiting on a response from the National Library to help with this information.
• Also in 1856 the fifth child, George is born, this time at ' Langlands' Raymond Terrace (see attached photo below). So I wonder if John died in Raymond Terrace? Will let you know if I find out. It says on George's birth and death certificates that his parents were Thomas Bourke of Doonass County Clare (a grazier) and his mother Mary Ryan of Tipperary. In 1856, Thomas was 50 and Mary was 38.
• From there, the next information I have is Mary Janes wedding notice in 1863 and they are living in Mihi Creek
• In 1873 Michael married Catherine Duffy in Armidale (they had 7 children). They lived on a property called 'Camperdown' at Rockvale.
• In 1876, Thomas (jnr) married Margaret Elizabeth Duffy in Armidale (they had 4 children)
• Also in 1876, George married Mary Jane Smith at 'Camperdown' a property not far from Kangaroo Hill (they had 10 children)
• Then in 1877, Thomas (senior) died at 'Avon Hill' Wollomombi of 'inflammation of the lungs.' It says on his death certificate he was 78 yrs old in 1877, making him born in 1799, yet on George's birth certificate it says he was 50 in 1856, making him born 1806.
• In the 1884/5 New England Electoral Roll, George & Michael's residence is 'Maiden Creek' & Thomas Freehold "Maiden Creek"
• 1885 Stock Returns - George 'Maiden Creek' Armidale - 300 acres, 7 horses, 6 cattle, 900 sheep. Michael 'Maiden Creek' Armidale - 1300 acres, 5 horses, 10 cattle, 900 sheep. Thomas 400 acres, 7 horses, 13 cattle, 1750 sheep.
• In the 1889/90 New England Electoral Roll, George, Michael and Thomas 'Maiden Creek'. 
• In 1889, Tom, George & Mike sold their property 'Yandooya' to Albert Wright
• 1890/91New England Electoral Roll all three men Freehold, 'Maiden Creek'
• The 3 brothers, Thomas, Michael and George seemed to have worked for property owners until they took up the freehold at Maiden Creek. They owned around 4800 acres at Maiden Creek (which was not far from Wongwibinda, where my grandmother grew up. Wongwibinda used to be called Kangaroo Hill). They called their property 'Yandooya.' Michael also had a block of around 200 acres at Biscuit Creek. Michael (or Mike as he was known) was living and working on a property called Alfreda at the time of his death. 'Yandooya' remained as part of Wongwibinda until the 1960's.
• Michael died in 1890 in Armidale of cancer.
• George died in 1918 in Armidale (strangulation of the bowel). His estate was still being decided in 1927.George's son, Alfred George (also known as 'Tot' ) went to war in 1916 spent most of his time in France and was lucky enough to return to Australia in 1919. He was wounded during the battle of Polygon Wood. George's other son Ernest Andrew also went to the first world war however he was killed in action during the battle of Polygon Wood on Oct 12 1917.
• Thomas (jnr) died in 1928 in Glen Innes. It says in his death notice that at one stage he managed the well known 'Bald Blair' station in the Guyra district.

And thats about all I know. I have never been able to find much information about Thomas and Mary's life. I would love to know how and why they came to Australia. Also would love to know what happened to Thomas' first wife and the 3 boys from the first marriage. Will keep searching. Hopefully someone sees our messages one day and fills in the blanks.

I have attached a picture of my great grandparents John and Mary on the farm at Wongwibinda. I'm guessing it was taken in the 1920's. Great old picture. They were very religious people. Had 10 children. My great aunt Noreen told me her dad was a strict catholic. He would come home from work and go up the back to the shed and read the bible. He wouldn't come in for a cup of tea until he was finished. When he was sick (just before he died in 1965) the Bishop of Ireland came out to Australia to see him. John was regarded as a very holy man. So I wonder if that religious side filtered down through the tree? Most probably

Also attached a passage out of a book called 'Wongwibinda' talks about the 3 brothers.

Anyway, I don't mean to be rude, but I have some family issues going on at the moment so its a bit hard to sit and chat. I will give you a call when things settle down.

Keep in touch, Regards

Fran

PS ; If you get a chance, have a look at Thomas's death certificate and see if you can decipher his mother's surname. It's difficult to read. Maybe Muldoon? But I don't think so. Maybe that could help us go further down the line. 

Certainly not rude Fran. You have my number when you are ready. I hope all works out ok. I haven't looked at any family history for 6 or 7 years so it will might me time to get my head around things again. We had a couple of trips over to Armidale and Glen Innes about then and I came back with mountains of info to add to what we already had. I've sorted through quite a bit of it, but not all, and keep telling myself I need to get back and finish it. So this might spark the interest again for a while.

I've attached the listing from the New England Pioneer Register that I assume sent us down the Mary White path. I know Mary Ryan's name came up with us but I can't locate where at the moment. 

I found a couple of differences in the Doran kids you sent through too. Not that that is probably a biggie for either of us but I'll check them out further before I get back to you with what I have there.

I also found I didn't have Mary Janes obit. Thankyou for that.

Wongwibinda is interesting

Talk soon

Hmmm interesting about Mary White. Maybe I have the wrong Mary Jane in my tree after all these years????????? NOOOOOO!!!!!!!  Sigh.... I will have to go back and check all the other Mary Jane's married around that time. yay :( 

I definitely know my Mary is Mary Ryan, as I said previously, Mary Ryan is listed on Georges birth and death certificate and also Thomas' death certificate as his second wife. Do you happen to have a copy of Mary Jane's death certificate? I don't have it. That would surely clear up her mothers maiden name for us. The only other thing is the Pioneer Register may have recorded the incorrect name? 

I came across this marriage information for a Thomas and Mary........

In 1844 BURKE to Mary WHITE in the Catholic Church at St Mary's, Sydney [V93 1844/2569] This was a Catholic record in Redfern so the Mary's maiden name was recorded on the 1846 baptism of Mary A. BOURKE. No occupation was recorded for Thomas.

In 1847 BURKE to Mary RYAN in the Catholic Church at St Mary's, Sydney [V95 1847/1027] The baptism of Michael BOURKE in Redfern was Catholic and indicated Mary's maiden name but provided no occupation for Thomas. (This marriage and baptism matches my information)

I have attached George's birth certificate below. I states Mary is 9 in 1856, making her born in 1847, which aligns with my Thomas and Mary's marriage in 1847.

I looked back through some information I received from the Armidale Family History group ages ago and came across this.... "Amidale Catholic records say a Thomas Bourke died 18/10/1923, Armidale - Mihi Creek, daughter Mary Jane." Could this be the same Thomas Bourke of Mihi Creek named as the father of Mary Jane in the marriage notice to James Doran in 1863? I looked on BDM NSW and a Thomas Bourke died in Armidale 1922 parents Thomas & Lucy. So maybe that's the Thomas Bourke you have been chasing? Maybe he is Mary White's husband? 

I think I may have the wrong Mary Jane. After all that, sadly, I think it sounds like we are chasing different people. Back to the drawing board for me!

Let me know what you think

Fran

Yes the 1844 marriage is the one we've been working on.

I'm hedging bets now though towards your Mary Jane being right and the Pioneer register wrong but we need a bit more info. I'm also waiting for Liz to weigh in on this conversation as she may have Mary Janes death certificate. I know she mentioned there were a couple she had or was going to order.

I'm glad you cleared up the Kangaroo Hills - Wongwibinda bit as I was looking at land maps and Bourkes down on Walcha Rd.

Something of interest now though that gives me the gut feeling we may be on the right track is your land dates for the brothers of 1884 - 85 at Maidens Creek. Our Giles's came from Lyndhurst Station, right next door, and Alfred Giles married Mary Ann Doran in 1885. She was 13 when the family moved from Stonehenge to Yarrowyck. We've always assumed she must have had a job and stayed behind. However I wonder if somewhere in that 7 years before she married at 20 she met Alfred through her Uncles at Maiden's Creek. Then went back to Glen Innes with him. Very close proximity there so.... food for thought. No info on their marriage certificate other than married at Glen Innes and both residing at Bald Nob. Him a farm labourer. Her a servant.

Hey Fran

Don't take the pioneer register as gospel.  It was put together a long time ago and, if my memory serves me, Mary White actually may have been put in by our sister Elizabeth back when she thought that was correct ...back in the day... heh! heh!

Fran

This should make you happy again.

Thanks to Mauzi Mo. :)

Ohhhhhhhhh thank goodness!!! That sure does make me happy. That clears things up for all of us hahaa. Great news! Thankyou so much!!

Now we have to clear up her birth. Says she was 83 when she died, making her born 1845. Was she born out of wedlock? Or did Thomas and Mary marry in 1844 like you thought?

I have attached the 2 marriage transcripts I have for Thomas and Mary. One from 1847 and one from 1848. Neither could read nor write and I notice on Mary Ann's marriage certificate she could not read or write either. I know it is not unusual for those times, but it just gives us an idea of their level of 'class' I guess. Maybe Thomas and Mary did come as a convicts? And Maybe Thomas' first wife and children stayed in Ireland? Or maybe they were just simply working class people who came looking for a better life? So many questions.

This is a really good read when you get time https://www.nma.gov.au/audio/not-just-ned-irish-in-australia-series/transcripts/irish-immigrants-from-austral

"Looking at Irish immigration pre the Famine of 1845. Just a few stats for you on the colony of New South Wales: in 1820, 54 per cent of the population of New South Wales was free. So that’s still right in the middle of convict transportation, but many of them are colonial-born by then and there are also some free immigrants paying their way, getting here in all other means, and there is also an earlier assisted immigration scheme to do with wives and families of convicts, which is what I did my thesis on. This was where men who were married before they left England and Ireland could apply, once they were at the ticket of leave or probation stage, for their families to come out free. And those families came out absolutely free to themselves too and they came on female convict ships. So many of them are tricky to find, because they are not listed on the indent of the convict ship because they are not convicts. But they are listed in other places. So you get free women and free children coming on those ships as well.

By 1830 the total population of New South Wales was 46,000; by 1836, 64 per cent of the population was free; and by 1850, on the doorstep of the Famine itself in Ireland, the population had reached 256,500. The Irish were particularly keen to take advantage of assisted schemes and, between 1832 and 1845, 30,000 Irish had emigrated to Australia. Between 1839 and 1845, more than half of the 46,500 immigrants to New South Wales were Irish. That’s an overview for that period."

Talk again soon

Fran

Hey Fran

I have something for you.  I think we've cracked it.

I reckon you're right!

I did have the ship 'Mary' in my notes, but sort of pushed it aside as they had a daughter, Mary aged 1 and just assumed it wasn't them. But maybe they did have a daughter and she died on the ship?? The ages of the boys all match and Thomas' age has always been a bit of a question mark. The only other reason I questioned it was because it said Thomas could read and write, but going off the marriage transcript, it said he couldn't. I could never read the first child's name either. I always thought it started with an S. But maybe it is a P for Patrick. Also on Thomas' death certificate, I always thought it said "3 males 2 living 1 dead by first wife" I actually think now that the '2' is an '&' sign.  I had always assumed it was one of the 3 boys that had died before Thomas' death in 1877. So maybe that death refers to Mary (aged 1 onboard the ship) and not one of the boys?? (I think I over think things that's my problem)

It says on Trove, the ship Mary had 3 infants die onboard and one woman over 60yrs. Maybe Mary was one of them??

The ship 'Mary' left London 28th July 1839, arrived Plymouth 9th Aug, left The Cape of Good Hope 9th Oct then arrived Sydney 24th Nov 1839. Captain Macauly (or Macawlay) was the Captain and the ship surgeon was James Grant esquire. The majority of people onboard paid their own passage. They were Bounty Immigrants, meaning they were all selected immigrants and brought to New South Wales by private agents under contract to the Colonial Government.

I looked at BDM and there are 2 Mary Bourke's/Burke that died between 1839-1847. One in 1841 age 30 and one Mary Burke who died in 1842 aged 34. I know that's a long shot, but possibly his first wife?? Also infant Mary Bourke in 1840, 1841 and 1843. Don't suppose you know anyone that works at BDM?? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ hahaaaa

How exciting!! This surely has to be them?? (Trust his first wife to be named Mary as well ....long sigh)

Will try and find the deaths listed on the ship Mary

Fran

Do you think he a liking for the name Mary?

Speaking of which, I went looking for deaths of Patricks, Edmunds and Wiliams. In Campbelltown cemetery there is an Edmund; Father Thomas, Mother Mary Ryan, wife Mary Heaney, died 1871. Only problem born 1791. I thought surely it's just a transcription error. Then I found his wife was born 1790. Bugger!

Surely all geneologists drink.

Well we all have to be related if you over-think things.  Hahaha!!!

It seems I've had him all along.  Found the card attached back in 2011 but it doesn't have all the kids on.  I have Thomas and Mary on my Bourke/Burke spreadsheet as well. Not sure where the record came from now but I collected it from somewhere -

Thomas Bourke       Estimated DOB  1807      Age  32   from Castle Connaught, Limerick  (couldn't find Castle Connaught in Limerick but Castleconnell is right across the Shannon from Doonass and there are a gazillion Bourkes there)

Mary Bourke            Estimated DOB  1810      Age  29  from Dunes, Clare  (sounds a lot like Doonass to me)

Arrived on the Mary 24 Nov 1839
 

I had a look at BDM as well.  I'd go for the 30 year old Mary in 1841 in an effort to match ages, early in the year before her birthday. But any of them could match the two.

There's a whole heap of Mary Ryan's too for that matter.  Two wife Marys, two child Marys and a trip out here on the Mary. The man has a theme.  Thank god they didn't have more girls.

... and I'm thinking that her maiden name might have been McNamara

Thomas's mother I mean, on the death certificate. Not sure.

Definitely had a thing for the name Mary hahhaaaa

In that case his mum's name was probably Mary McNamara lol

Hello

Re Edmund Bourke (son of Thomas Bourke [Burk] and Mary Ryan) this family from near Cashel, County Tipperary. Thomas was a 1798 irish rebel. he left behind a wife and 6 children. After Thomas died in 1833, his son petitioned for his estate and received little co-operation from the trustee, Fr John Therry. Edmund and his family came to the colony in ca 1837.

Hi, I am a descendant of James and Mary my great grandfather Sylvester Doran is my dads grand father’

Hi Shae

Our line is Sylvester's big sister Mary Ann so that makes us about 3rd cousins.

Have you found more on the Bourke's by any chance?

Hi MickG

No, I don’t have much detail. I have only just started looking into the family tree. 

Ok Shae

We might be able to enlighten you with a few things that we've uncovered. Or maybe not. :)

Send me an email. mixtechmail@gmail.com

It's a bit more direct than doing things on here.