School records for Oola in 1914 still exist?

Hi RonE,
You say.................
Limerick Genealogy said they don't have access to baptisms after 1899, even though I notice some other Counties have put some up to 1917 online.
The online info is from the Civil records.
Try
familysearch.org
They have birth records up to 1958 (I am listed)
When you see the names (as you havn't menttioned them) go back to the Census records, then the Baptism records and you maybe able to match them up.
If these people are deceased, then the names would help.
Margot

Dear RonE:  

Thank you for your query to the Ireland Reaching Out message board.  One of our volunteers who lives in the Oola area may know and I have copied this post to them.  Many of the school registers are being transcribed within their local communities, so it is possible that that is the case with the Oola school registers.  Our volunteer will reply to you on this thread in the next week or so.  If you have any further questions, please let me know at:  jhalloranryan@irelandxo.com.  

The very best of luck with your research.

Kind regards,

Jane

Dear Margot Secrette

When I said "No Birth Certificate on Irish Genealogy website under her surname, but several with different surname & father not shown." I meant from a thorough searching of the Civil Records online there. I know Family Search have the Civil births index up to mid 19th century, BUT I thought NOT the actual details of births for any in 19th century.

The issue I think is this girl was put in the Workhouse & also married using her father's surname, but there is no Civil record of her birth under his surname. So I suspect she was born to an unmarried mother. In that case I thought Civil Records don't record the father [maybe unless he agreed he was the father], even if the mother was well aware of the father's name. I'm told legally the child was the sole responsibility of the mother's & the father could not be sued for maintenance or support back then. Please CORRECT ME if what I've been told & repeated above is wrong.

Jane Halloran Ryan: Thank you very much. I do need a local prespective. BTW, the girl was boarded out to a Mrs Ryan; not an uncommon surname in Tipperary, but I have more details, so I'll email you a copy of Workhouse Census & Marriage Certificate to forward onto your Oola contact please.

Thank you both ladies for your prompt responses,

Ron  

Hello Maresa.

Actually we might have emailed directly in the past about another of my Limerick branches (Parker married Cornielle) over the other side of Limerick about my DNA matches to yourself & your late uncle. On that matter, I've found half a dozen or so DNA matches to people with Palatine ancestors from around Rathkeale, but each with different surnames, so I haven't found a common ancestor yet.

Good question you have asked. The girl was admitted to Tipperary Workhouse from Knockroe. So she had to be living in the Tipperary Poor Law Union. I took that Knockroe to be in the Parish of Kilteely, but no baptism there. That is near the border of Parish of Pallasgreen, but so far they haven't responded to my email about a baptism.

But on re-checking IreAtlas, there are 2 Knockroes in Tipperary Poor Law Union. The other is the Civil Parish of Relickmurry & Athassel further east into County Tipperary. She was born in County Limerick according to the 1911 Census, boarded out to Oola in 1914, & was living in Nicker, near Pallasgreen a decade later. So I'm still inclined towards the Knockroe in Parish of Kilteely. What do you think?

Kind regards,

Ron

Thanks Maresa.

Hi Jane Halloran Ryan & Maresa.

I presume your sources can't help. I've probably asked the impossible question.

Fr. Pat Burns from Pallasgreen has been unable to find this girl's baptism. I've given both PPs (Kilteely & Pallasgreen) a donation for thier time in looking up their registers, as I presume all PPs are busy on more important things. 

So I'm wondering if it's worth bothering Very Rev. Roy Donovan of Caherconish re the Knockroe there. My reason for asking  PPs to search their registers, is that I've seen the father's name recorded in a lot of ninteenth century Catholic baptism registers with "illegitimate" or a similar comment. But maybe in the later period I'm now researching (c. 1907), the father's name was omitted if the mother was unmarried? In that case, searching baptisms manually would be difficult. The other possibility is the mother had to go to the Workhouse for the birth, then was able to leave & live in Knockroe for a few years. The baptism then would be in Tipperary or Limerick City near the Workhouse  maybe?

Any thoughts? I guess sometime in the future the index to baptisms for the whole Diocese will be extended to past 1907, so waiting for that might be another alternative. I notice Roots Ireland have some Parishes up to 1917 now.

It's very interesting to find information about your ancestors. I also try to find out about them some facts, so I start to write a dissertation on the geanology. To have more materials, I go to the edubirdie writing service and order some articles on this theme. I like the way https://edubirdie.com/buy-dissertation works and the quality of its content. Moreover, you can buy the necessary materials all over the world at any time, which is very convenient.

Hi Katherine.

Sorry I'm not up to writing up this genealogy: still trying to find out the grandmother's mother's name; thus the question about Oola school records.

But no help on this as you can see, so I think I've asked a difficult question.

Kind regards,

Ron

RonE
Your original question.........
School records for Oorla in 1914 still exist?
I just looked and these records are listed under County Limerick, to search you need a name........then find Oorla

Margot

Thanks Margot.

But I don't understand what do I search?

Does Oorla = Oola? I'm looking at the place a little SE of Pallasgrean. I notice an Oorla near Askeaton, way over the other side of County Limerick.

Kind regards,

Ron

Hi Ron,

Oola not Oorla sorry!
this site has records, my subscription has ended,sorry. You search by County. Then you would need the surname. 
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/ireland-national-school-registers

Or email the National Archives
query@nationalarchives.ie

Margot

Thanks Margot.

My local Family History library has a full Find My Past subscription, & re-opens in a fortnight.

NAI of course are on major virus restrictions at the moment too, but that won't be forever.

I'll see what I can find as soon as places open.

Kind regards

Ron

Hi RonE:

Unfortunately, the Oola School Registers are not listed on FindMyPast which I have checked (although they do have a number of school registers).  

I'm wondering if you contact Oola National School to see if they know where the old registers are.  They may still  have them but they're located in an attic!  

The website is here:  http://oolans.ie/index.html

Please get back to me if you have any further questions.  I will ask some people in the Limerick/Tipperary area about the school registers.

All the best,

Jane

Thank you Jane.

When I did a free search yesterday [registered with FMP but subscription expired], I thought they showed about 10 records available for the Parish of Oola for a common surname. But I now can't replicate this search, so I must have made a mistake somewhere.

I emailed Oola school a year or more ago, but didn't receive an acknowledgement of my email. I suppose no harm in trying again with a simple question [any registers or info re pupils a century ago].

Do you think it likely that a girl boarded out from the Workhouse in 1914, with age put up to 10 years old presumably to make her more attractive to the couple boarding her, would have been allowed to go to school? She was in the Workhouse in 1911, & it seems was abandoned by her mother [whose circumstances I don't know]. Or more likely I am wasting people's time?

Kind regards,

Ron

Hi RonE:

You are not wasting anyone's time at all.  We are all happy to assist here as much as possible.  It is quite possible that she was taken in as a boarder to assist a family as a servant.  I will contact a few people and see what comes up.  Don't lose heart!  We will try to help you solve this mystery!

All the best,

Jane

Katherine,

Has your post been re-dated? I answered a very similiar post on 3 July 2019, & unfortunately my position is still the same.

Ron

Katherine, 2nd repost of this ad?

Hi Ron:

The previous reply was spam which I have deleted.

I gather that you are still searching and that you commented about contacting the neighbouring PP in Caherconlish.  I think that's no harm to do as you are looking for a specific name and time.  If a child was illegitimate, the father's name was often not included and the child was given the name of its mother.  Another common situation was that children born outside marriage were often taken to a neighbouring parish to be baptised.  It may be the case that this was the case for your ancestor.  

I'm going to copy someone from Caherconlish on this as he  may have some thoughts about strategy for finding this information out.

Stay safe and well.

All the best,

Jane

Hi Ron:

I have spoken to the local volunteer who I contacted.  He has suggested that you contact Fr Roy directly with the specific information that you have.  If you have any questions, please email me directly at:  jhalloranryan@irelandxo.com

All the best,

Jane

Thank you for all the effort you have gone to Jane.

I do have a question, so I will email you. This girl stated a father's name for her Marriage Certificate, but I have no idea of her mother's name. No record of Birth Cert under father's name, so I've looked at all Birth Certs with no father shown, about then in the area. Have one whose mother seems to have married nearby a couple of years later, or mother might have married a few Parishes away. Another possible mother was living in Limerick City when she married, so less likely. I'm wondering if asking too much of Fr. Roy to search baptisms for no father's name, or several possible surnames.

Kind regards,

Ron

PS I've given up on school records, as the one I looked at on Find My Past only had father's occupation as the ONLY info re student's guardian / parents 

Jane, thanks for your help. I've decided not to email you, as I was waiting on copy of Will & Deceased Estate file of who I think this girl's father was. But unfortunately that didn't help, only to show the probable father had borrowed money from 2 banks, storekeeper, & several relatives, & died with a long list of creditors.

So I think next step I will ask Limerick Genealogy if any thoughts of extending the date thier baptism transcriptions go for this area, then ask Fr Roy to look for baptisms without a father & this girl's Christian name.

Re post immediately above, I have no idea of what that is about or the relevance of such

Ron

Hi Ron:

I have deleted that spam post.

As to your search, it does sound as if you are getting closer, although I know that it's small steps.  I would definitely contact the priest again and be very specific about what you want.  He may be able to help.

Certainly, Limerick Genealogy should be consulted as they may have other ideas as to finding out the information.  Both Aoife and Caitriona are great researchers there.  

Let me know how you get on.

Stay safe and well.

All the best,

Jane

Thanks Jane.

Limerick Genealogy would be a great help, so long as born a bit after 1900 stops them.

Another issue I was wondering about, was if Fr. Roy would know common Irish - English Christian name synonyms.

The NLI website of Catholic Baptisms has Caherclonish [& the adjoining Kilteely, & Pallasgrean Parishes] all in English, so I'm guessing the same around 1907 ie Latin not used in these Parish Registers. The girl I'd like to trace has her name recorded as Johanna & Josie on later records, & even Josephine, but later could have been a confusion with another girl boarded out of the Workhouse at the same time. Should I remind Fr. Roy that could be Siobhan, Sinead, or similiar in his records, or is that treating the Priest as an idiot?
I presume I should do one thing at a time. But I've already had Parish Priests in Kilteely, & Pallasgrean search for this baptism as Johanna & the girl's father's surname [& no record of any baptisms under his surname]. From what you said 2 messages ago, I should have also asked those PPs to search for a Johanna etc without a father's name. I feel a bit of an idiot myself getting back to them asking if baptised without father's name. Also, do you have a suggestion of a reasonable donation to make to ask they look through 3 years of their Baptism Register please? I forget what I sent them after their search under the girl's father's name; 20 or 25 Euro I think.

Maybe Limerick Genealogy is prepared to become involved, & that would avoid any misunderstandings, as locals talking to locals.

Been a lot of messages & changes of ideas since my original post, so I've put my issue updated below:

I’m trying to find the baptism of a Catholic girl born 1907, inferred from her age on other records. I can’t find her Birth Certificate on Irish Genealogy under her father’s name, & so strongly suspect her parents weren’t married.

However I don’t know her mother’s name. I have found several Birth Certificates with no father that might be this girl, so have a few possible names for her mother.

Place of birth seems to be Knockroe in the Poor Law Union of Tipperary, & she was born in County Limerick.

I’m told there are 2 Knockroes, in Parish of Kilteely, & another in Parish of Caherclonish. If parents were unmarried, I’m told she might have been baptised in an adjoining Parish, such as Pallasgrean.

Thanks for any ideas you wish to suggest, [other than DNA matches].

Ron

Hi again Ron:

I commend you on your persistence!!  I might forward this to someone in Caherconlish who may have some suggestions.  

He will contact you through this message board thread.

All the best,

Jane

Thanks for your replies Jane & John.

The start of my 1st post on Thurs 22 Oct ommitted a "doesn't" & I meant to say "Limerick Genealogy would be a great help, so long as born a bit after 1900 DOESN't stop them."

Very interesting history John. I've been to Ireland a couple of times [a long trip from Sydney], but was concentrating on my mother's Galway ancestry & brick wall then, so spent my time researching in Dublin, then visiting County Galway. I haven't been to County Limerick yet, but now find I have ancestors from both sides of the County [near Pallaskenry, & near Tipperary boarder]. My issue in finding this girl's mother's name is complicated, soit  will be great if Limerick Genealogy can help. Maybe the answer is to wait & hope early 20th century baptism info is added to their records: so many could be the Parish, & so little to ID a father if not mentioned in her baptism. The suspected father [the ame the girl gave on her marriage] wasn't young at the time, & had a lot of debts, which approximated his available assets when he died not long after this girl was born. His most valuable asset turned out to be his claim to ownership of the land he farmed.

And yes that dreadful virus: Australia has avoided it well, but at a great cost! But now, even Aussies returning from overseas are treated as lepers for a fortnight, that's if they can find a flight home! I can't see flights to England - Ireland returning to normal for a considerable time.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Ron

John,

Thanks for your reply. The next reply is spam?

Actually out here, my ancestors from the other side of Co. Limerick mention Kilcornan, & the Minister who signed the Baptismal Cert for immigration was there, then soon after at Chapelrussel. The father immigrant, born 1803, looks like he married a woman from Ardcanny Parish. The big difference is the family were Protestant, & 2 of the women were Irish Palatine descendants, evidenced by our DNA matches, but living  a few Parishes north of Rathkeale, so not so lucky to have Church of Ireland records surviving back that far. So that might make a difference volunteering to research them. Out here, my mother's Catholic immigrant from Co. Galway married a daughter of above in 1842, & we wondered why he'd marry a Protestant, until we found the Palatine connection, & her father brought a lease on 17,000 acres, so not poor as the average Irish imigrant farmer.

Re finding more about the girl born c. 1907 on the other side of Co. Limerick, Caitriona in Limerick Genealogy looks like she will take a look at my research, to see if pre-1900 records can narrow down the possibles.

Thanks for your help,

Ron

John, Thanks for those links & all that history. In particular, I didn't realise locals have different place names, & it amazes me that Protestants were buried next to Catholics!! The irish Palatine history that has been referred to me, talks of Protestants trying to convert Catholics in 1830s, leading to much unrest in west of Co. Limerick. One Palatine, who was a Tithe Collector [& that might have been his big mistake], had his head cut off back then. Then Wesley put in his diary around 1860s from memory, that even the hard-working Palatines couldn't make a go of the small acreages of Irish land, & most moved on to the "New World".I'm particularly interested in Wesleyan Methodist, as I didn't realise they had a Church so far north of Rathkeale, but 2 brothers who went to Ontario, Canada, were well into that religion over there, had children who became Ministers etc. That didn't happen as far as I know out here in Australia, maybe because my Protestant married Palatine descendant didn't come out as part of a group I think, & no Churches around in the wilderness where they lived in those days. I also think they weren't as concerned with type of religion, as the eldest daughter married a Catholic, & when he died in an accident, married a Protestant, & when he died, married a Catholic & was baptised a Catholic at a grand old age.

If you wish, I could send you surname of ancestors I think were Protestants from Ardcanny, in the very early 1800s, as I don't have a Roots Ireland subscription [it suited me a lot better to have credits I could use to look up 1 or 2 records, then not use Roots Ireland for months until I had another query]. But you have already spent time on explaining a lot of history, & I shouldn't research too many ancestors at once, & Kilcornan Church of Ireland records don't survive I'm told for 1st half of 19th century.

PS no children rang my doorbell on Halloween. It's not as popular over here [even though we have All Saints Day], in my youth was seen as a North American thing.

But I think covid-19 had many parents saying no to children going out, except maybe 1 or 2 friends places. So might have been more a inside Halloween this year. 

Thanks for any help John. The references in trees of others is to Parish of Ardcanny, but might also be Chapelrussel for the other surname.

I've emailed Jane to pass on my info to you,

Kind regards,

Ron

Hi RonE:

I received your email and I have passed it on.  You should hear back from John in the next week or so.

All the best,

Jane

Thanks Jane.

I think the next answer might be spam??

I've had a few emails with Limerick Genealogy, & it seems their difficulty accessing baptisms early 1900s & the difficulties of where baptised etc, is too much for them, ATM at least.

So I'll email Fr Roy in Caherclonish as soon as I find time [visitors here ATM].

Kind regards

Ron

The last message is spam I presume.

I've now emailed Fr Roy asking if someone has the time to look up Baptism Register.

Ron

Hi RonE:

Yes, there was some spam that I deleted.

Let me know how you get on.  We will try to help further if we can.

Stay safe and well.

All the best,

Jane

Hi John & Jane.

I've had an email back from Fr Roy: "Unfortunately we have no records of baptisms in Caherconlish/ Caherline between 1899 and 1915.

There is a man, Pat Hourigan, in the parish who has done huge research on all kinds of families and genealogy" & included contact details for Pat.

My question now is whether the Baptism Register or the info in it has survived, or just sent elsewhere eg Diocesian archives, or for transcription?

I've thanked Fr Roy for his time, & haven't emailed Pat yet, as I think the above is the only question I'd have that he might be able to help me.

Any further thoughts please? Or time to give up on this girl, & concentrate on my known ancestors?

Ron      

Hi RonE:

I would contact Pat directly just to try all avenues.  All that he can tell you is that he doesn't know.  You have nothing lost by doing so.

Good luck!

All the best,

Jane

Thanks Jane.

Last reply is spam again.

When googling, I noticed Tipperary Excel Heritage research webpage that says they are the only researchers with access to all Catholic Diocese of Cashel & Emly. I presume they mean the original registers. So I've messaged them to see if that includes up to say 1910, & all Parishes adjoining Kilteely.

No reply yet. I'd never heard of them previously; they say volunteer group.

Ron

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Hello. National School records were my topic on exams for essays. Must say it is an interesting area to research and to write about it. Maslow's hierarchy of needs essay do all this work perfectly and even on time in a few hours of the deadline. I am still impressed by their speed and quality.

Jane,

A bit of repeated spam above. Still waiting for a reply from Tipperary Excel Family Research.

Cheers

Ron

Apologies, Ron.  I'll delete it.  

Hello. National School records were my topic on exams for essays. Must say it is an interesting area to research and to write about it. https://an-essay.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs do all this work perfectly and even on time in a few hours of the deadline. I am still impressed by their speed and quality.

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Jane Halloran Ryan,

Looks like we attracted some more spam.

I haven't pursued this query further at the moment, as requires someone in Ireland to check Tipperary & maybe other records for me. A pen pal in Dublin said you were in lockdown a few months ago, & not even a local should go out to look at Catholic records bit over a century old. If someone will look at the Baptism Register for me, I could send Euros in envelope with card, or any other payment they suggest.

Maybe I'd be better asking PP Tipperary if he knows a local he'd be happy to let look through Tipperary baptisms around 1907 for baptisms without a father shown, or shown as unmarried? The Church probably has someone prepared to do that for a donation to the Church. But if not found, then I'd like someone to look at Kilteely register again. Maybe I could find someone trusted by the Parish Priests in the area?

RonE,
Can you email please.
marg2ade@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks
Margot

Margot,

Yes, I've emailed your address.

Ron

Just to let the rest of the world know Margot & I have done more research, but Margot has ended that now, as we couldn't find any more info, & seems an impossilbe case.

Ron

Hi, Some time ago i id mention that I will try to get to Thurles at some time to go to the office there. I have a few things to look for.
Lets hope we can get some info for you.

Margot

Thanks Margot. Once Covid-19 restrictions ease, I could ask for a search of Tipperary Parish Baptism Register. Maybe one day baptisms around Pallasgrean district will be indexed up to 1910.

I have the matter on hold at the moment.

Ron