Researching John Alley, brewer & Mayor of Dublin 1817-18, and Dr George Underwood Alley

Thank you Shane for your very quick and detailed reply.  I am most grateful.  You information confirms that John Alley, gunmaker, who married Jane Ann Underwood in February 1804 are my 4th great grandparents.  These are the names of the parents of Dr George Underwood Alley on his 1879 death certificate.  I guess it unlikely that this John Alley was also the Mayor in 1817-18.  I notice that the John Alley gunmaker was only a gumnaker from 1805 to 1807.  Then a John Alley became a Sheriff of Dublin in 1808, Mayor in 1817 and later an alderman before dying in 1823.  Knowing the maiden surname of the Mayor's wife would either confirm they are the same John Alley or different John Alleys.

Thank you also for the additional information about Dr George Underwood Alley.  The Trinity College under tutor Newland in 1821 is probaly him, as he was born in 1804.  Trinity Colege confirmed a while ago that he didn't actually complete his medical degree there and he went on to the college at the Anglesey Lying-in hospital.  But I didn't know about the reference to him being a surgeon at Eden Park in the 1834 directory.  He would not have been in the 1840 edition as he mirgrated to Australia in 1838 as the ship's surgeon.

I'll follow up those other suggestions

Regards

Bill Crawshaw

Dear Shane

With reference to your reply on 28 July 2020, I wonder if you could help me interpret the George Alley, Surgeon, address in the Pettigrew & Oulton directory of 1834.  It indicates that George Alley was one of 5 residents at 29 Philipsburgh Avenue.  I have looked at the streetview of this address on Google Earth and it looks to be a late 19th century renovation of the same building as there are 5 houses in it. As the Philipsburgh Avenue address comes up on Google Earth as in the suburb of Drumcondra, I don't understand the Eden Park tag against George Alley's listing.  Sorry to be a pedant, but would you have an idea what the Eden Park means in his adress means.

Regards

Bill Crawshaw

Dear Shane

Thanks you for clarifying thet Eden Park was the name of George Alley's house at No 30.  And thanks also for the 1880 map.  

Regards

Bill Crawshaw

Dear Shane

I'm now trying to confirm who were the parents of John Alley, the gunmaker, who married Jane Ann Underwood in February 1804 (Sir William Benthsm's Genealogical Abstracts, your message of 28 July 2020 above).

The Alley Family Tree on Family Search website and a number of family trees on Ancestry show this John Alley's parents to have been Peter Alley (b. abt 1740) and Elizabeth Day (b. abt 1744) but there is no accompanying documentation to support this.

There is, however, documentation that a Peter Alley from Co Kilkenny and an Elizabeth Day of Dublin were married in 1765 (again from Sir William Bentham's Genealogical Abstracts - copy enclosed) but I have been unable to find anything which confirms that this John Alley was one of their son.  It seems there were a number of Peter Alleys in Co Kilkenny around this time, one also a gunsmith who died in 1779, another who diedin 1767 which may or may not be this John Alley's father or grandfather.

I'd appreciate it if you were able to shed any light on a connection between this John Alley and the Peter Alley/Elizabeth Day union.

Kind regards

Bill Crawshaw

My name is Frank Ian Alley and I live in Newcastle, NSW, Australia. My great, great grandfater was Dr. George Underwood Alley. According the family folklaw, George left Trinity College, Dublin because Catholics were allowed into the college. He went I believe to Edinburgh to complete his medical qualifications. Left Edinburgh and arrived in Sydney, Australia in 1838, with his rather large family, one of whom was born on the ship. Later in life he had a falling out with one of his sons because he married a Catholic.

His son, Julian Underwood had a family, one son being Julian Underwood who was my grandfather. My father was also named Julian Underwood.

I note that the Newzealander Frederick James Alley, born in Ireland had the father John Alley, married to Sarah Ward who died in 1913. FJ Alley's son Rewi Alley made a name for himself in China and was close to Mao Zedong. Rewi was involved in education matters, introduced OHS for factories in Shanghai and my office in what was the French Quarter of Shanghai was next to the building where Rewi was head of fire fighting services for Shanghai. The NZ givernment offered him a knoghthood which he turned down.

One of my Facebook friends is Peter Alley.

Thank you for getting in touch Frank.  I live in Canberra and George Underwood Alley was one of my 3rd great grandfathers.  So I guess that makes us distant cousins on some level.

I knew that George had studied medicine at Trinity College, Dublin, and Trinity's records show that he never finished his degree.  Interesting reason as to why he left trinity College, but consistent with the attitude which permeates much of his journalistic writings.  Your mention of him completing his medical qualifications in Edinburgh made me search the Edinburgh University alumni for medical students from 1821 until he left for Australia in 1838.  However, I didn't find any record of him there.

It appears that George Underwood Alley switched to the College of the Anglesey Lying-In-Hospital in Dublin, where he completed a Midwifery Diploma sometime between 1827 and 1837, before he migrated to Australia in 1838.  This is borne out in a testimony he gave when he was a witness in a court case in August 1861 when he lived at Nowra.

The Illawarra Mercury of 20 August 1861 (p.4) reported that under cross examination, George Underwood Alley stated that "I have a midwifery diploma from the College of the Anglice (sic) Lying-in-Hospital.  I am not a member of the N.S.W. Medical Board, and never applied to be.  I am not a member of a College of Surgeons, but I served my full period."  I have enclosed a copy of the article.  See yellow highlighting.

Yes, the son with whom George had a falling out with was my 2nd great grandfather, Arthur Underwood Alley, who married Elizabeth Ann Treehy, from a Catholic family who had emigrated from Tipperary.  They lived at Major's Creek when George and some of his family lived at nearby Araluen.  The whole sorry saga may also be found in newspaper reports on Trove as it involved a court case in Braidwood in 1865 over custody of their eldest child (copy of article enclosed).  Arthur and Elizabeth appear to have resolved the matter by moving away from the influences of both sets of parents to Mt Victoria, then to Hartley and Orange and had several more children.  They returned to Araluen in 1882, after George had died in 1879, and their remaining parents were elderly and unwell.

While I have now identified the John Alley, which was George Underwood Alley's father, I am still trying to resolve which of a number of Peter Alleys around the same period was my John Alley's father.  I suppose it's possible that FJ Alley or Rewi Alley are descendants of the same John Alley but I have found that John Alley was a very common name in Dublin and England.

Kind regards

Bill Crawshaw

Dear Bill,

Thank you for the contact. Yonks ago one Selby Alley was a counsellor at Newcastle University. His daughter Elizabeth lived at Merewether when I met her. She showed me the family bible which apparently came out with George. 

There is an interesting story concerning the name Alley. It was said that the name was originally Allen and they were catholics and to escape the ravages of Cromwell, moved to France, where the name was changed to Alleyne in keeping with French spelling apparently. On return to Ireland the Alleyne became corrupted to Alley and these catholics probably 'took the soup' and converted to protestanism. Long ago of course. Needless to say, I have no evidence of this, but it is an interesting story.

It seems that Dr. George was a rather loose with the truth when he wrote for the SMH. On an visit to the Shoalhaven I was looking across at Pig Island where George had a property and there appeared a punt and I spoke to the owner. George had reported in the SMH that his property was inundated by floodwaters. The gent I spoke to knew all about the floods and said that no flood water affected George's property. I also visited his property, originally called Ocean View on the Sassafras Road. The house was burned down. Beautiful soil though. Saw his wife's grave on the property. It is said that George suggested the site for a new township which became Nowra. One of his sons George (the 'long'un') became the Nowra magistrate.

Did you find the story of George being arrested for carrying and ancient pistol at political meetings around Braidwood way?

An interesting coincidence, my maternal grandmother was from Araluen, Annie Wilson, later Annie Blayden, then Annie Irwin.

Best wishes,

Frank

Hi Bill,

One story I heard was that one of their children born and died on the ship (Hugh R Underwood Alley (1838-1838)) was buried in a cemetary upon which Sydney Town Hall exists now.

Regards,

Frank

Bill, hope I'm not being a pest,

More coincidence, your 2nd grandmother Elizabeth Ann Alley had the same name as my first wife, Elizabeth Ann Alley (nee Last).

Frank

Thanks for the additional information Frank. I was aware that one of George and Catherine Alley's children had died on the voyage to Australia, though not the grave location. Interesting background to the origin of the Alley name. I hadn't heard about George being arrested for carrying a pistol at political meetings. He stood (unsuccessfully ) for NSW Parliament several times.

It's nice to have some stories of folklore in the family. However, over the past 10 years while researching my father's and mother's ancestry, I have found that several of the family folklore stories were either greatly embellished, or just plain incorrect. So I treat them with some scepticism.

Having photographed Pig Island from the Terara shore a couple of years ago, I don't know that I would accept the local punt owner's view that Pig Island would not have flooded. It is a very low island and George's article about how the February 1860 flood swept across the island is very detailed. There were no dams on the Shoalhaven then, and I even recall hearing of the flooded Shoalhaven inundating the island only a couple of years ago. The punt owner could have been getting the George Alleys and the properties mixed up as Sassfras is referred to. George Underwood Alley (snr) (1804-79) had a son George Underwood Alley (jnr) 1840-1932 who settled on a property at Sassafras after leaving Nowra following the 1860 flood.

Regards Bill

Hi Bill,

As I remember, the punt owner said that the part of the island where George lived was not flooded. However, I agree with you that without documentation one has to use the proverbial grain of salt. The story I heard was that the church in Ireland that had some of the family records was destroyed by fire. As usual there is the effort to find some link with royalty by some people.

I'll have another look at some of the stuff sent to me and if it is worthwhile scan it and post it here.

Best for Christmas,

Frank

Hi Bill,

Just another point: on the partial pedigree I sent you, there is a Captain John Alley, grandfather of George. Now, could that captain be a sailor or a soldier? Was there a rank of captain in the army then? George's father as you have discovered was a gun maker and I wonder if his father was a soldier?

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank

All the very best to you for Christmas too.  So some records would have been lost in the Church fire.  That may help explain the gap, and you probably also know thet the main records office in Dublin was destoyed during the Civil War and many records too.  A few months ago I was in contact with a Rosie Alley in Melbourne who was also researching her line in the Alley family.  That was how I discovered that our John Alley was a gunmaker and not the John Alley, who was a brewer and later mayor of Dublin. According to Rosie, John Alley the gunmaker had been in the military at the Battle of the Nile, but I have not been able to find any record of him in the British military records around the late 1790s-early 1800s.  I did subsequently find him on the 1841 census in London, still a gunmaker. 

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,

The information I have comes from 'The Alley Story' by Trevor Jenkin. Much would be familiar to you.

It was during elections in Braidwood when the police confiscated 32 pistols and then went to Dr. George and took from him an ancient pistol, or so the story goes. There is also reference to Alleyne.

Another coincidence is that one of my sond is Vivian Francis Alley. He was preceded in name by a Cpl. Vivian Francis Alley of the Light Horse during WWI. VF Alley was at Gallipoli and was medically repatriated to Australia. There is quite a bit of information available on the Australian War Memorial website with copies of original documents. I have details for 13, eg John Alley born in Glasgow, a tin miner who became a sapper in the war, recruited at Holdsworthy, NSW. George Underwood Fraser Alley recruited in Perth, WA. Percy Edgar Alley from Nowra way, recruited at Leichhardt, NSW. Clair Underwood Alley, recruited at Liverpool, NSW, kIlled in action, France 1918. And so on.

Much of my information comes from a Bill Alley from Northern NSW as of the 1980's when I lived in Parramatta.

Regards,

Frank

Thanks for the further info, Frank and Clair U. Alley's military record.  The pistols story sounds interesting.  I have seen Clair U. Alley's and George U. Fraser Alley's military records.  I wasn't aware of the other two.  When were in France in 2016 we visisted some Commonwealth War Grave Commission cemeteries where some of mine and my wife's relatives are buried.  Clair Alley's name is inscribed on the wall at Villiers Bretenoux as, sadly, he has no known grave (enclosed some photos).  George U. Fraser Alley survived his wounds and arrived home but, sadly, he succumbed to the post WWI influenza epidemic. Also enclosed a photo from Google earth of GUA's house at 30 Philipsburgh Av, Dublin (the red door) where he and his family lived in 1834 - this was his adddress listed in a Dublin city directory of the time.

Have agreat Christmas

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the photos. In the mid 2000's I was Head of Physics at the Kings Academy, Middlesbrough. On the 11th of the 11th I wore a red poppy. One of my 16 yo students challenged me: why was I wearing a poppy, I was an Australian. Well my blood boiled and I gave him an earfull about how 60,000 Australians died fighting for his bloody country. My father used to quote Churchill's fighting on the beaches etc..speech, but added 'to the last Australian'.

Have a good one,

Frank

That must have been a very intereting and challenging position.  Maybe in the UK, like here, few high school students actually study history any more, or at least very little beyond their own borders.

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,

We do in Australia however have 'anzackery' encouraged by politicians and the usual suspects. I loved being in England, but some of my students had fathers, grandfathers who had never had a job, had lived entirely on welfare. So, who needs an education, when all you need is money for smokes, booze and having a good time.

There was one funny incident in the academy concerning football. Every Monday the academy was in misery because Middlesbrough had lost in the weekend. They had an Australian goalkeeper and so one day I asked a class 'who is your goalkeeper?' 'Swatrzer'  'Where does he come from?' 'Australia!'  'Which city?'  'Sydney!'  'Which school did he go to?'   No answer. 'Well actually, he went to Colo High School....I used to teach him!'

Within a couple of day a reporter from a Middlesbrough newspaper came to the school to interview me and take my photo. I only wish I could express the 'smoggy' way of speaking to make it funnier. The Borough locals are called smoggies.

I lived in Guisborough, originally a market town going back about 1000 years. One of the many small pubs on the high street had been serving ale since 1750. Pic of the house where I lived, and my car. Also in Stokesly a nearby suburb, where James Cook went to school.

Best,

Frank

Hi Bill and Frank,

I hope you don’t mind if I join your conversation which I found today while doing some post-Christmas family history googling. Your comments, and the information from Shane, are all very enlightening and helpful. I am also a descendent of Dr George Underwood Alley. His son Arthur Underwood Alley was my great grandfather, while Arthur’s son Roy Underwood Alley was my grandfather.

Bill, it was good to see your photos of the house in Dublin, and also of Villers-Bretonneux, with Clair’s name on the memorial. He was Roy’s younger brother (and so my great-uncle) and I have his medals and “Dead Man’s Penny” (Memorial Plaque), which were sent to his sister Gertrude after the war.

I visited Araluen for the first time in November this year. My grandfather Roy used to tell me stories about growing up there and playing in the creek. The only Alley-related sites that I found were the Araluen Valley Hotel, which I believe was originally Arthur U. Alley’s general store, and the Church of England cemetery, which contains the graves of George Underwood and Catherine Amelia Alley. I have attached an image of the headstone.  

Frank, in one of your posts you mentioned something about finding a link with royalty. Do you know the story of our family’s link with royalty through the Underwood line? I think it is the reason for its persistence as a middle name for several generations and makes a very interesting story.

Regards,

Ann

HI Ann,

Thanks for the photo of George's headstone. I'll have a look at the brief explanation of the 'royalty connection' I have and get back to you. Happy new year!

Regards,

Frank

Thanks for joining, Ann, and for the photo of the headstone.  As I live in Canberra, I've visited Araluen a few times.  Between visiting in 2012 and again in 2018, someone had thoroughly cleaned  the headstone.  My understanding is that Trevor Alley ran the Perseverance Store which subsequently became the Araluen Hotel which is there today.  At the time, Arthur Alley and his family, who lived in Majors Creek for a few years, had moved to central NSW, (My Victoria, Hartley & Orange) because of the disagreements between his father, George, and his in-laws over Arthur having married a Catholic (Elizabeth Ann Treehy) and a custody issue over their eldest child, which is mentioned in one of my earlier posts above.  The Araluen Hotel has a couple of old photo albums which includes photos of the building and surrounds, which they will bring out for you to look through.  It also has a set of the original scales from the shop and they let me walk through Trevor Alley's old house next door which I think is now for hotel accommodation, but would be rarely used. 

I have investigated the royalty connection which is complicated, so I have enclosed an edited excerpt on the Aristocratic Connection from my Chapter on the Alley Branch of my family tree.

Regards

Bill Crawshaw

Good morning Ann,

A couple of scans from what Trevor Jenkins sent me some years ago.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Bill and Frank,

Thanks for your replies. Bill, I wondered about the headstone when I first saw it in the cemetery - it seemed so clean and almost looked new but I compared it with a photo taken by someone else many years ago and realised it was the same one. About Trevor Alley's Perseverance Store, I had always assumed (wrongly I suppose) that it was originally Arthur's shop and that Trevor had taken it over when Arthur and Elizabeth moved to the central west. Unfortunately, on the day I visited the pub was closed so I wasn't able to look inside. Do you know where Arthur's original general store was? Given that they were living in Majors Creek, near Elizabeth's parents, I suppose it was there.

The royal connection attachments are very interesting. Although I knew the bare bones of the story already, I didn't know of Mollie Gillen's book, with its fascinating anecdotes. It seems the Duke of Sussex had a habit of making "improper" marriages.

Regards,

Ann

Hi Ann & Frank

My understanding is that Arthur Alley moved from Nowra to Major's Creek around 1860 and was there for about 7 years.  So yes, I understand his store was in Major's Creek.

Another question for either you or Frank.  Do either of you know anything about Jane Underwood, who was George Underwood Alley's (snr) mother? She married John Alley, a gunmaker, in Dublin in February 1804.. I've been trying to dicsover her birth and death dates.

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,

Unfortunately I know virtually nothing about Jane Ann Underwood, except that her parents were Richard Underwood and Christiana Goold. I did discover recently that she and John Alley had a daughter Ann Jane (sister to George) in 1802. I'm not sure what to think of this - it seems a little strange that, in those times, they would not marry until 2 years after the birth of the first child. Ann Jane married Rev. John Craig in Dublin 1830, had a son, Robert, in 1831 and died in Hastings in 1834. I hope this information is correct; it's from "The life and times of Rev. John Craig 1805-1877" at http://www.craig-telescope.co.uk/life_craig.html and is part of an interesting website on the Craig Telescope.

Regards,

Ann

Hi Ann

I have found it quite difficult working out which Alleys in Ireland are ancestors of George Underwood Alley.  I looked up the Ann Alley whom you mentioned was born in 1802 and who was George's sister, on Irish Genealogy.  It seems that her parents were John and Ann Alley who had married in 1800.  This was the John Alley who was a brewer and who became Mayor of Dublin in 1817-18.  I thought he was our John Alley, but subesequent reserarch indicated it was a different John Alley who was a gun maker.  I had some assistance with this from Rosie Alley in Melbourne who I met through this website and had access to Bentham's Genealogical Transcripts.  Bentham evidently started transcribing Chuch records and as you would know a lot of Irish records were lost during the civil war in the early 1920s, so Bentham's Transcripts can fill some ofthe gaps.

I have enclosed Ann Alley's 1802 birth record and the Bentham Transcripts of John Alley (Dublin brewer) & Ann Nugent's marriage in 1800 and John Alley's and Jane Underwood's marriage in February 1804.  Just to make it more confusing, you will notice on the first transcript that John Alley's sister, Ann Alley, married Ann Nugent's brother, William Nugent on the same day in 1800, but these are not George Underwood Alley's ancestors.

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for setting me straight! I always mean to be careful about checking sources but sometimes I just see what I want to see - the mention in the John Craig article about his wife being "a distant relation to the Earl of Aran" made me assume too much. Thanks also for the Bentham Transcripts - I wasn't aware of them.

Regards,

Ann

Good morning Bill, Frank and Ann. Hope it's ok that I've joined your thread; I have been reading it with fascination. I thought we were related to the John Alley (lord major) but it seems I was incorrect. My g-g (maybe one more!) was Trevor Underwood Alley through his son Edgar Oswald Alley and his daughter, Edith Joan Alley who was my grandmother. I have read many stories about the Braidwood/Araluen connection and am keen to learn more. I have copied much of what you all have attached and written (hope that's ok!) on my phone and am keen to read it all ASAP. I will see what I have already abs share what I can. Regards, Alexis (Albany, Western Australia)

Hi All. Not sure if any of you have this, but I have a copy of about 70 pages of Alley history handwritten by the husband of GUA's great grand-daughter, Violet Alley. I think it was written for a reunion many years ago. Happy to scan and email if you pm me through Facebook (Alexis Stone). Some of what has been mentioned in your thread is covered although not the Anglesey maternity hospital link which sounds very likely. There is a description of the flood plus information regarding Lady Cecilia. I missing the first 7 pages (??) but I believe my mother has those. Regards, 

Good morning Alexis,

My uncle, from the Julian Underwood line was Frederick Trevor Alley. He was the dead spit of the younger Rewi Alley of New Zealand. Rewi's father looks just like my younger brother, Trevor Edward Alley.

Tried to find you on Facebook, but no success. Perhaps you might look me up (Frank Alley0. I would be most interested in a copy of the document you have. Was it written by Trevor Jenkin? Iy's interesting that my dad was Julian Underwood and in our line, the first born is named after the father and unfortunately I was named after my maternal uncle. It may have been a protest by my mother. 

Regards,

Frank

Great that you have joined the discussion Alexis and I'm happy to share any info I have.  I would be very interested in seeing the 70 pages of Alley history written by Violet.  That may have been written prior to the Alley family reunion at Nowra showground back in 1987.  I had planned to attend but then we had a major medical issue in the family and I had to miss the reunion.  I'm not on facebook but I'm happy to give you my e-mail:   kcrawsha@bigpond.net.au

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill and Frank 

I have added you as a friend on FB Frank and Bill, I will email you the docs I have. I believe they were written by Trevor Jenkins as I have a typed letter to my grandmother from her cousin, Mildred Rolfe, whom I am unfamiliar with, and at the bottom is an address for Trevor Jenkins in Holden Hill SA. I have also emailed a copy of photos of Edgar Oswald Alley, son of Trevor Underwood Alley who looks exactly like one of my brothers. 
Alexis 

Hi Alexis,

No sign of you as a FB friend. As I understand it, one needs to ask a person if they are willing to be a friend. I have received no FB request. Perhaps if I just, like Bill give you my email address: longfulan@gmail.com.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Alexis,

Thanks for your kind offer of the handwritten Alley history. I would also be interested in seeing it and emailing might be easiest. My address is annp_210@hotmail.com. I wish I had known about the Alley family reunion at the time but only found out about it after the event. It sounds like there may have been a lot of George U. Alley look-alikes there - would have made for some great group photos!

Regards,

Ann

Hi Alexis and others

Thanks very much for the Violet Alley's handwritten story of the Alley family - a very interesting read.  Through a combination of a letter from my mum to Jean Rolfe back in 1987, another letter from a cousin of my mum in the same year, and the aditional research I have since done, I was familiar with most of what was in Violet's story, except for the reason that GUA left Trinity College without completing his medical degree.  All my mum's cousin mentioned was that in 1824 GUA was involved in some trouble in Dublin involving the students.  It may have been related to trying to exclude Cathoics from Trinity (though they had been allowed entry since the late 1790s before GUA was born).  But I did some more digging and I think he was probably involved in the demostrations over Parliament's legislation in 1822, 1824 and 1825 to ban the Protestant Orange lodges and prohibit the Protestant Orange processions.  At the time, the Govt was trying to mediate the political, social, and economic tensions between Catholic & Protestant interests.  You can read more about it at starting at page 48 in the following link:  https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4…

I also got the clear impression from newspaper articles in the early 1860s that GUA and Alexander Berry were not on very good terms. Berry, with the assistance of 'mates' in the NSW Government was promoting development of his private town at Numbla, as against GUA's more reasoned and logical arguments, following the Shoalhaven flood of 1860, that Nowra was a much better location for the main town for the district.  As with many of these historical readings, one is often left thinking that the more things change, the more they stay the same!

Regards

Bill