Portland RC Church

Hi Bill, 
Mary Carroll the daughter was born in 2nd August 1833, what is the name of the child born in 1831?
The other children are...  these are Baptism dates...
Michael 7th September 1835, Anthony and his twin Joan 12th April 1837, Timothy 1st September 1843 and Joseph 2nd January 1849.
Portland is the Address and the Church was in Lorrha.
I looked at the map for Portland Church, switched to Aerial and see it's floor and bits of the wall.

I did see a death for Mary in 1920 in Richmond Australia, same parents names, is this your Mary?

Lorrha Church records are from 1829, not sure when it was built looks like Norman design.

Margot

Wow. A big thank you, Margot. That is really interesting about the twins. Thank you too for clearing up about the Portland Church. The Baptism that I could see in 1831 was for, I thought, Thomas (but the date seems long after his supposed birth date (see these lower down).  Joseph was my grandfather (my father didnt marry until he was in his fifties!)

The (incomplete) copy of the 1851 census for the family family shows the parents Anthony as aged 54 and Mary aged 48 (her NZ obituary implies her age would have actually been 49 or 50 years, not 48) and that they married in 1820. There were twelve children in the census of which two were shown as being married. I believe Anthony died around 1869 because late that year Mary, (with her age written down by about 20 years), sailed to NZ with her then adult sons William and Joseph. She died here in NZ in 1888.

With your kind help it looks like we may have uncovered all12 of the family. It would appear I might be a bit 'out' on some of their birth dates. Maybe some of 'my' Carroll christian names may also show up in official Baptism records. The children collectively identified are; 

Catherine (Kitty) b.1825 d.1914 (Melbourne, Australia) She married a Daniel Madden, I assume in Australia.

Thomas b,1929; d.1896 (NZ). Emigrated to NZ in 1861

James b.1832; d.1897 (Queensland, Australia) Emigrated with brother Michael in 1865)

Mary b.c1833; d.1920 (Melbourne, Australia)

Edward b.1835? d.1932 (NZ)   (The birth date I have for Edward looks like it should actually be for Michael from your official records. My date was taken from his NZ obituary but maybe no-one in NZ really knew when he was born.) Emigrated to NZ in 1863.

Michael b.1835 d. 1923 {Melbourne, Australia).  (Birth date 1835 from your official records)

Anthony and Joan b.1837

Timothy 1843

William  b.c1838; d 1912 (NZ)

Margaret b.1846; d1913 (NZ). Married a John Duncan.

Joseph b.1849; d.1926 (NZ)

The Carroll tenant 20 acre farm at Little Portland  was located just over the fence from the current goat farm. Only a few stones remain of the house but the adjacent large chestnut tree that was drawn in the Griffith Survey map of the Little Portland area is still standing. The mother, Mary Carroll was Mary Kirwin (or Kirwan) before her marriage. I see a refernce to a Michael Kirwan as having a house in Lorrha in the Griffith survey. Her father possibly, given Michael is a Carroll family name?

Many thanks, for your help, Margot

Regards, Bill

 

Hi Bill, yes I see Thomas 7th March 1831.
Catherine 1825, James 1832, Edward 1835, William 1838 and Margaret 1846, I can not find.
I searched the Parish's Borrisokane, Terryglass and Birr & Loughkeen.

On the 1851 Census it says Mary was born in Galway........do you know where?
You say....
The Carroll tenant 20 acre farm at Little Portland  was located just over the fence from the current goat farm
As you go north from Borrisokane after you pass Towerhill the area is known as goatstown.
The age.... always goes by your age last birthday
It could be your birthday the next day but if you fill in a document, it's always age last birthday.
Would you like me to see if I can find anything out about.....Anthony and Joan b.1837    and Timothy 1843.
Let me know please,
Cheers
Margot

 

 

Hi Margot,

If you can uncover any further information on Anthony and Joan and also Timothy, that would be wonderful.

I do not know where in Galway their mother, Mary, came from. Given that Anthony's land was quite near the Shannon, maybe she was from somewhere nearby, like Portumna. But that is purely guesswork on my part. I am assuming people were not able to travel long distances for meeting new people and courting in those days because of their limited options for transportation.

I have attached a map of the Lorrha area that shows the goat farm I referred to earlier. The Carroll plot is approximately marked with my hand drawn 'X'. The location of the property as it is depicted in the Griffith survey for Little Portland is also attached as are the property's officially recorded details.

Kind regards,

Bill

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the Map and other records a great help.  Next time we are over I will have a look at the area.

I found this.....Patt Carroll 1st September 1843.........(that is Timothy's date of birth in the Roostireland site). I saw the record in Ancestry and went back to the NLI site. Mary's name was entered as Kirman.
Right hand page ...left colum 30th down it is hard to read.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634711#page/78/mode/1up
I have looked for Joan, Anthony and Timothy or Patt and can't see anything.
Going by the Patt record same as Timothy's birth and you mentioned that Edward could be Michael. 
They must have used their and name or Confirmation name.
I went to the NLI to see the birth for Anthony and Joan....... it says Tony and Joan. Right hand page look for 12  l 12.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634711#page/51/mode/1up
I have searched avery site I use sorry no results.
But, I dd see this, a Timothy Carrol's death in 1868 he was 30.  The registration district for  Portland area would be at that time Borrisokane.
The actual image isn't on line. If you went into this site you can follow the links and you could get it. It could be him or not, to get the basic record it's 4 Euro that is all you would need.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/802e…
If I do find anything I will come back to you.
Margot

Thank you, Margot, for all your help. Your efforts have certainly opened up some new lines of enquiry. If we are to include Anthony and Joan plus Timothy I believe we will have identified all 12 children (as listed in the 1851 census) of Anthony and Mary Carroll. That would be amazing. I have local NZ obituaries for Mary (the mother), and her children Edward, William and Joseph which I can post if you consider their later lives as early settlers in the Colony to be of interest.

Meantime I remain happy to receive any new discoveries that may turn up and I will certainly follow up on the links you have provided.

Bill

Hello Bill,
I saw this.... William and an Ann!

CARROLL William        1865    27    so born about 1838 
left from   nr Roscrea     Anthony / Catherine - F dead , M       nr Brusna,Queen's. 
Sister=    Ann Carroll at Mrs Capp's,Syd. Ship =  Hornet

On the depositors registration the depositor was Michael.
I have looked for Brusna in well I took it as Queensland Australia.
I looked at the Hornet ship records for 1865, It's Brusna in Queens County Ireland, now called Laois.

In 1869 did Mary (the Mother) travel on the Fabia ship?
Margot

 

Hi Margot

Thank you again, Margot.This is what we have managed to discern from local NZ records. Mary, William and Joseph sailed to NZ on the Celaeno. I note Mary is not listed as having an occupation. I have attached her's and 3 of her sons' obituaries from NZ. All three siblings (Edward, William and Joseph) plus another brother (Thomas) and a sister (Margaret) settled at Southbridge in the NZ province of Canterbury. For the family members who migrated Australia, Catherine, Mary, Michael and James we have death and cemetery details only, including some gravestones. So its really the (older and married 3?) family members that remained in Ireland who have been harder to identify.....and of course details of the father (Anthony). We assume he may have died in 1868-9 not long before his widow's emigration. Maybe the family lost the right to its tenancy of the 20 acres when he died, or maybe one of the remaining married family members took it over.

Kind regards

Bill

HI Bill,
Thanks for all the files.  Love the sea chest what a treat to have this.
Are you in Ancestry?
If you are can you search Timothy Enright b 1917 d 2001
The first tree that you see will be me, can you send me a message please.
Thanks
Margot

I'm on Ancestry but my membership is currently not 'financial' so my ability to view much is curtailed. I can 'see' Timothy Enright (ex Limerick?) but do not have access to view his family tree, unfortunately. I can reignite my membership if its helpful. You may well be able to see and message me under my Ancestry username, 'carrollnz'.

Interestingly whilst on Ancestry I did see a search tip regarding the said Mary Kirwan (see attachment) which I cannot follow up on but you may be able to access through your resources if you have the time. Interestingly, her maiden name seems to have a variety of spellings (Kirwan, Curran and now maybe Kuwna) in the various record repositories. 

Kind regards,

Bill

Hi Bill, I did try to message you via Ancestry.
Yes the Curran and Kuwna is also what I did see. 
I will look into that record for you.
Margot

This is what I was going to send the other day.......
 

I went back to the 1901 Census to see who was in Portland with a Carroll name.
A Mary (who later on in the search you will see was Winifred) she was a widow, with her son James and a daughter Jane Anne.
On the hunt for these children’s births and got Jane Anne.
Her father was Patrick Carroll and her mother was Winifred Tierney. They married in 1869.
I went for their marriage.
Patrick Carrol's father was Peter Carroll from Muckaloon,Terryglass.
Winifred was from Coolbawn (just down the road from Terryglass)
Peter Carrol was born about 1828 and died in 1884 

Then to the 1911 Census, only James and Jane Anne.
James Carroll died 10th June 1924 never married present at the death Theresa Carroll niece.
Jane Anne Carroll died on the 15th January 1928, present at the death is a niece Teresa Carroll.

I searched for Teresa/Theresa Carroll. She was born in 1877 Her Mother was Bridget Nolan and her father was Michael Carroll. This family lived next door to Portland the area was called Annagh.
Michael’s marriage says his father is Michael and were from Muckaloon.
These have all got to be related as Teresa was entered as the niece.
Michael was born in 1830 in Muckaloon.
This is the Terryglas Parish book
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634786#page/45/mode/1up

Annagh
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/lower-ormond/lorrha/lorrha-west/annagh/

Portland
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/lower-ormond/lorrha/lorrha-west/portland/

 

Thank you again, Margot, for all the work you have done and the Carroll information you have come up with which I will look to assimilate. I note that the 1901 census shows the only residents of Little Portland to be a King Family. Mrs King is aged 50 which would make her too young, I think, to have been a married member of the Carroll family. She could have been a granddaugher possibly. I did note that a Tony Carroll married a Mary King (see attached file) so there could be some connection. I am unsure if the Kings were occupying the same cottage as the Carroll's had done but at least it would appear that by 1901 none of the Carrolls still lived at Little Portland. Maybe the lease on the 20 acres was relinquised or terminated at the time of Anthony's death.

Hi Bill, 
The King family in 1901, I looked for the younest ....Joseph King his Mother was Ryan, then checked all the children, same Mother Ryan.
1900978.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

This is Henry and Margaret's Marriage
8184035.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)
seems no relation to the Carroll's.
Cheers
Margot

My name is Terrance Carroll. I am the grandson of Peter Carroll, born May 04, 1866 in the Townland of Muckloon, County Tipperary to Patrick Carroll and Winifred Tierney. Their marriage record shows Patrick's fathers name father's name as Peter and Winifred's fathers name as Thomas Tierney.

If you think tere may be a connection, let me know.

tippcarroll@msn.com

 

Hi Terrance, 
I see Winifred passed on in 1898, did Patrick go to live with Peter live in Brookfield.
I see a death of a Patrick Carroll in Brookfield, with son Peter in 1909.
There are 2 x Peter Carroll's about the same age.

Who did Peter marry?

Margot

My great grandmother Winifred Tierney Carroll died on January 03, 1898 in Muckloon Townland near Terryglass. Shortley after her death the Carroll family, Patrick his son John and daughters Henriette and Jane moved to the Townland of Ryehill. You can view them in the 1901 census. Patrick died on September 24, 1903 in Ryehill. After his death the property was sold. John and Jane came to the United States and Henriette stayed in the area and married Anthony Fox. I have met my Tierney and Fox families but never able to locate a Carroll relative.

Terry Carroll

PS My grandfather came to the United States.

 

Hi Terry,
Thanks, I see them in Ryehill,in Ballinderry.
Working out the age of Patrick he was born about 1830c (+ or - 5 years)
In the Tithe records Peter Carroll...
The Tithe Applotment Books, 1823-37 (nationalarchives.ie)

The page   number 63 is Peter, there is another entry....Widow Carroll....shame they never put the Widows Christian name in.

004625725/004625725_00116.pdf (nationalarchives.ie)

I was looing for Patricks birth in the Terryglass Parish Book and can't find him.....try here....
Lorrha and Dorrha, Killaloe - Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI

I checked the ages in 1901.
John Carroll aged 26...born about 1875.........who is this?  ............for that year it says William or did he use John.
02482/04, Terryglass - Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI

An earlier birth of a Thomas ................................................................see the attached file, his death in 1892.
02482/04, Terryglass - Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI

The Church records you search by Parish, you may have to join this site.  A month membership, you should get you info there, it's quicker search ny name, use the surnames first.
Find your Irish Ancestors today – Irish Family History Online Records Search Facility – Find your Irish Ancestors today with the Irish Family History Foundation online research service (rootsireland.ie)

After 1864 use this site...............
Welcome to Irish Genealogy - Irish Genealogy

I am not in any of the searching sites now, sorry.

Hope this hlps

Margot

Hi Margot,

My great grandparents Patrick and Winifred Tierney Carroll had eight children:

Peter, born 04 May 1866, he came to the USA, 25 July, 1887, married Alice Hopkins, he died 11 May, 1926.

Mary Catherine, born 18 Sept. 1867, she came to the USA 1896, married Michael Meara, she diied 08 June,1935.

James, born 17 Jan.1869, thats all I know about him.

Thomas, born 31 July 1870, died 01 Sept. 1892. Thank you Margot for a copy of his deat notice

John, born 07 July 1872, came to the USA , year unknown, married his brother's widow 08 Sept. 1928, died 28 Nov 1951

Henriette, born Jan. 04, 1874, married Anthony Fox, remained in Terryglass area.

William, born 10 Sept. 1875, thats all I know about him.

Jane, 04 March 1880, came to the USA 1910, married Joseph Brady, she died 06, Aug. year unknown

Terry Carroll

 

Patrick did not live with Peter, he his children John, Henriette moved to Ryehill where Patrick pursched a farm

Terry Carroll

Hi Terry,
I will look for James and William.
May take a bit of time, but I will update you.
Margot