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Philip Clough Brick Wall

Looking for suggestions for researching Philip Clough, 3rd-great grandfather, in Irish records. Almost no info on the Ireland side of things. Plenty of U.S. info on him and his descendants. One old handwritten note says "Born in Ireland, County Cook". Possibly Cork? Ancestry trees indicate the north of Ireland, possibly Antrim, but with no sourcing. He attended a Congregational church in Crown Point, New York. Born 21 June 1810 according to his gravestone. Immigration date unknown, never became naturalized. No other indicators of family of origin in the U.S. (i.e., people who might have come with him when he emigrated).

Not knowing where to begin since the county is unknown (and indeed whether the Clough spelling is the original one), I have done some haphazard searches for "Philip Clough" and just "Clough" on various websites that allow access to Irish records (e.g., Griffiths valuation), but with emphasis on haphazard. Found a Mary Clough born in 1808 to Martin and Margaret (McCarthy) in County Cork, but this was in Roman Catholic church records so unlikely to be a connection. I really don't know how to approach this more systematically with so little to go on, or whether I should even bother until more info (hopefully) turns up from other sources in the U.S. first.

Would appreciate any suggestions or advice. Researching in Irish records is pretty new to me.

Thanks.

Nancy

diegobird

35 replies

 

Hi Nancy,

Regarding Philip Clough

There is a record of a Howel Powell Clough having married a Barbara Westropp in Limerickj City in March 1812. Source: Ffolliot Newspaper Transcript Archive - 1756 - 1850. He is recorded as being a Lieut. in 20th Regiment of Foot based in Mallow (Co. Cork).

There are a number of entries in www.findmypast.ie for County Cork. Births, marriages and wills - 1806 to 1894. The people are both Roman Catholic and Anglican. You might find some clue there?

Regards,

McCoy

Thanks so much for the information. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I will follow up on these leads. Nancy

 

 

diegobird

Hi Nancy,

Philip Clough is also my 3rd great grandfather through his daughter Emeline. Anything you find out I would be interested in too. BTW, his wife Sarah Sartwell's lineage can be traced back to the Mayflower passenger, John Billington.  Have you tried to get membership in the General Society of Mayflower Descendants? 

Carol

 

Carol McMorrow

Hello, Carol - Nice to hear from you. I am also descended through Emeline and her husband William G. McMurtry, through their son, George B. and his wife Addie Williams. I am aware of the possible John Billington connection and have submitted just a request for a lineage match check from the Society of Mayflower Descendants (cost: $75 US). This is not an application but just a request for review of previous applications they have received to see if/how far the lineage has been verified. I have not heard back from them yet, as the process is slowed due to COVID. I do have some concern about a couple of the family connections that might not have enough direct evidence to satisfy the Mayflower Society. 

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy,

So nice to meet you! I have just been corresponding with the GSMD also, but haven't yet sent in the lineage check paperwork.  I have information on Emeline and William McMurtry if you need it.  They are buried in the Ironville Cemetery in Ironville NY.  He came to the US from Ireland (actually a port in England which I would have to look up) in 1848 on the ship Niagra and was a teamster in Ironville. I'm hoping the GSMD already has 5-6 generations in their SIlver Book which might take it to Emeline's mother Dolly Wood. I come through William and Emeline's daughter Sarah Jennie who was my great grandmother. I see her brother George listed in my family tree on familysearch.org

Lets keep in touch cousin Nancy!

 

Carol

Carol McMorrow

Nancy,

 

I meant to say Sarah Sartwell Clough's mother Dolly Wood.

Carol McMorrow

Hi, Cousin Carol - Hope you are doing well. Heard back from the lineage check. An application was previously approved through the 7th generation, that is, through Sarah Hale and Jason Wood. Documentation would have to be provided for Dolly Ann Wood going forward to the present. They also cautioned that since application reviews have not been standardized over the years, it is possible that another review would require more documentation for those first 7 generations, even though previously approved.

In case you were not aware, there is an obituary for Jennie McMurtry Wright (Mrs. Nelson D. Wright) in the Ticonderoga Sentinel, 24 August 1916, page 6, available on the nyshistoricnewspapers.org website. I assume this is your ancestor? 

Nancy

diegobird

Thank you so much Nancy!  I didn't have my great grandmother's obituary. Yes, Jennie McMurtry Wright was my great grandmother. Her photo and Nelson's are in my living room, and I have a beautiful side by side that belonged to her. I've added her obituary to her page on familysearch.org

I understand that GSMD collaborated with American Ancestors to put their database online sometime in the past few months. It's a free account with American Ancestors, so once you have that you can go to this link https://www.americanancestors.org/search/databasesearch/2731/general-so… then scroll down until you see the list of Mayflower passengers with blue "Tree" links after their names.  So I went to John Billington's tree and followed it forward.  I saw there was only one child of Sarah Hale and Jason Wood listed there so apparently that is the only line that was verified, at least by previous standards. Dolly Wood has been a brick wall for me.  Her records on familysearch.org does not list parents.  I have everything I need for the rest of the line to me, but Dolly is a problem. I have some other family members working on this so I will let you know if we turn up anything. 

Carol

Carol McMorrow

Hi, Carol - If you have access, Ancestry has an extensive Revolutionary War pension application file for Jason Wood, which several times lists Dolly Wood (sometimes named as Dolly Sartwell) as one of his and Sarah Hale's children. Beyond that, it is a source of other information as well, sometimes very difficult to read but well worth poring over. It is over 40 pages. I suspect that this could be the document that was used to verify Dolly's sister's position in the Mayflower lineage (Roxanna Wood), the only application for this line that has to date been received and approved according to GSMD. You can find it on Ancestry in "U.S., Revolutionary War and Bounty-Land Warrant Application Files, 1800-1900", for Jason Wood. 

I have not yet seriously tackled all of the line from generation 8 (Dolly Wood) to me, although I have some data. I might need to tap your knowledge at some point, depending on what I am able to find!

Have a great day.

Nancy

 

U.S., Revolutionary War Pension and Bounty-Land Warrant Application Files, 1800-1900U.S., Revolutionary War Pension and Bounty-Land Warrant Application Files, 1800-1900U.S., Revolutionary War Pension and Bounty-Land Warrant Application Files, 1800-1900

diegobird

WOW!  Thank you Nancy!  I'm having my cousins check that out since they have access to Ancestry.

Let me know if I can help you in anyway with the rest of the line. I was looking again at the passenger list from the Niagra that was saved in my computer. I tried to copy and paste it to this but it was too long and didn't work.  I'll have to try to find the link. William McMurtry left Liverpool on the ship Niagara and arrived in NY on August 28, 1848.  He has 18 years old and had one box with him.  I remember looking at this seveal years ago and saw that the voyage was particularly long.  I began to wonder if there was a hurricane during that time since it was August.  So I looked at the hurricanes for 1848 and sure enough, there was a hurricane that went up through the north Atlantic at exactly the time he would have been sailing. I put a photo of William McMurtry and Emeline Cloughs gravestone on familysearch.com today (On Emeline's page). It says right on the stone that Emeline was Williams wife and gives her birth and death dates.  Perhaps you have been to Ironville, NY and have already seen this gravestone.

Take care and thank you for the help!

Carol

 

 

Carol McMorrow

Hi, Carol - There is a long obituary for Emeline Clough McMurtry in the Ticonderoga Sentinel at Ticonderoga sentinel. (Ticonderoga, Essex County, N.Y.) 188?-1982, October 17, 1895, Page 2, Image 2 - NYS Historic Newspapers. It fortunately references her maiden name, so it establishes a good connection with William (Wm. in the obit) McMurtry. There is also a brief death notice for William, Ticonderoga sentinel. (Ticonderoga, Essex County, N.Y.) 188?-1982, June 08, 1905, Page 4, Image 4 - NYS Historic Newspapers, although I have been unsuccessful in finding a full obituary for him. I did find another small item from earlier in 1905 (April, I think), noting that he was having severe heart problems. It is well worth searching the papers for Essex County on the NYS Historic Newspapers website using various variations of family names (all free). You will find references to the Nelson Wright family and others. I will have to peruse Ancestry more for William McMurtry's immigration info; I believe there is more than one record of that name for arriving passengers, which makes it difficult to know what is actually correct. 

Thank you for the information about the American Ancestors/Mayflower database. I am a member and had used that particular database of Mayflower applications, but just to search by family names, unsuccessfully. I did not know to scroll down further to find family trees laid out. It was of particular interest as I also was able to see that on my mother's side there has been a successful application connecting to both Francis Eaton and Samuel Fuller (which I had suspected but was not sure about). So thanks for the added data!

I believe with the McMurtry/Clough application, I will likely have the most difficulty with proofs for Philip Clough/Sarah Sartwell.

Good luck with your continuing research!

Nancy  

diegobird

Hi Nancy,

My cousins accessed the info on Jason Wood that you provided the link for on Ancestry.  What a treasure trove of information!  It gives everything we need for that generation. Sworn statements attesting to the marriage of Jason Wood to Sarah Hale, details of their marriage ceremony, lists of all the children.  So we are good with the line down to Dolly (hopefully).  Sarah Sartwell Clough has a gravestone next to Phillip's in the Ironville Cemetery.  My parents took a photo of it and I put it on Find A Grave, but it is difficult to read. The Ironville Cemetery has a website where her grave is listed and the inscription says she is wife of Phillip Clough. I found some information on geneology.com that gives info on Haile Sartwell and Dolly Wood. https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/sartwell/172/. One of the replys below that write up says they got information from the Town Clerk of Crown Point that states Sarah Clough (Sartwell) mother was Dolly Sartwell.  I think there may be a lot of documentation on Ancestry, but I don't want to ask my cousins for a second favor just yet.  (I haven't even met them.  My parents used to visit them. They are as distant as you are on my "tree").  At some point I will just have to subscribe to Ancestry. 

I have been going through the NY Historic newspapers and have found a lot of great information on the Crammonds (my family).  Jennie McMurtry's daughter Phoebe married a Crammond. I went over to Emeline McMurtry's obituary after I got your email.  It's interesting that she died at age 60 of "tumors".  My grandmother, (Emeline's grandaughter) Phoebe Wright Crammond died of ovarian cancer at age 37.  I've been tested for hereditary cancer and the tests have been negative although I've had cancer twice.

I saw there were more than one William McMurtry's that immigrated here during that time period, but I could only find one where the age fit with our William McMurtry. He should have been 18 years old when he immigrated. He had at least one brother that came during that time as well. If you find out anything different I would love to know that.

Keep in touch and I would be intersted in anything else along this line you might find. I've been in touch with GSMD and it seems the weak spot is what you said, but it looks like we can get that information. If you would prefer to correspond directly, you can use my email carolkm7@gmail.com or we can use this site.  No problem either way.

Carol

Carol McMorrow

Hi Nancy

Happy New Year and greetings from Co. Antrim,Northern Ireland.

I am related to Mathew Hunter who had the land to the east of  Philip Clough's property and his brother Alexander who had the land to the south of the Stoney Lonesome Road. I have only started researching this branch of the family and was excited to see the number of familiar names along this stretch of road. My thesis, for now, is that the Hunters, Cowans and McMurtrys may have known each other from County Antrim. They were definitely of Scotch Irish descent and the names are commonplace in mid East Antrim within a 10 mile radius of the town of Carrickfergus. My brother started his working life at McMurtrys timber yard in Glenoe and we are also related to the Cowans. They also seem to have travelled over within a few years of each other.

Philip Clough is the exception. The name is more suggestive of County Lancaster in NW England (just across the Irish Sea from Carrichfergus). How the name 'Clough' is pronounced might hold a clue. We Ulster Scots pronounce it 'Clock', as in the Scottish word for lake, 'Lough'. The English pronounce Clough as 'Cluff', as for example in the name of a famous soccer player Brian Clough. I note that emmigration records sometimes show 'Cluff'. Less plausibly the name may have been shortened from McCullough which is very common in County Antrim. Stretching  the straw further Carrickfergus was an English garrison town and Philip may have been born to a garrison family. Civil birth records will not help but I hope to search non digitalised church records when I can access our Public Records Office in the Spring. 

I came to this thread by accident in that in the book 'Up on Chilson Hill' page 163 Phiip Clough's daughter Emily is misremembered as marrying Matthew Hunter in 1853. If you can help me identify who the real 'Emily Hunter' was it would be greatly appreciated.

Lloyd Hunter

l.hunter@btint…

Hello, Lloyd - So wonderful to hear from you! These connections and the excitement of new discoveries are what I love about genealogy! Your thoughts on the Hunter, Cowan, and McMurtry families are very interesting and helpful. They will perhaps assist me in finding out more about the McMurtrys in Ireland, as my information from there is pretty sparse.

Philip Clough does remain quite a conundrum. You probably noted in my earlier post that an old photo of Philip says he was from "County Cook", which of course doesn't exist, but again I wonder if County Cork is a possibility. However, that would certainly put him at a distance from the Antrim folks. I also have wondered, as you point out, about pronunciation and spelling variations of the name Clough, and the possibility of a connection with England. However, researching that seems particularly daunting at this point. If you are able to find anything promising, I would greatly appreciate hearing about it.

In terms of Matthew Hunter, everything I can find to date does indicate that he did indeed marry Emily Clough, although I admit I have not researched this line in detail at this point as neither he nor she are direct ancestors. Perhaps you can let me know why you say this is "misremembered". What I can point you to is the oddly-entitled book Biographical Review: This Volume Contains Biographical Sketches of the Leading Citizens of Essex and Clinton Counties New York; Boston: Biographical Review Publishing Company, 1896. There is a brief biography (though much longer than in Up on Chilson Hill) of Matthew Hunter beginning on page 113. He apparently would still have been alive at the time this was published. You should be able to access this through Google Books, with a free download. I am not sure whether it is available on Internet Archive. This biography does state that in March, 1853, Matthew Hunter, son of William Hunter and Mary McCrady, married Emily Clough, daughter of Philip Clough and Sarah Sortwell [should be Sartwell]. In addition, there exists an official death certificate for Matthew's daughter Mary Elizabeth Hunter, wife of Alexander Hunter, from Vermont in 1951, that clearly indicates her parents were Matthew Hunter of Ireland and Emily Clough of Crown Point, NY. The informant for the death certificate information was "M.W. Hunter, M.D." This death certificate is available on Ancestry, in Vermont, U.S., Death Records, 1909-2008 for Mary E Hunter, Chittenden > 1951. While the information in the biography could possibly be erroneous, I suppose, it is unlikely that the death certificate is wrong. I hope this helps.

Thanks so much for responding. I look forward to hearing from you again soon!

Nancy 

 

Vermont, U.S., Death Records, 1909-2008  

diegobird

Hi Nancy,

In relation to the surnames Clough and Hunter, there is a record of a Stephen Hunter in Cork in 1698 who apparently came from Yorkshire. The name "Hunter" is recorded in the following areas of County Cork: Bandon, Fermoy, Castletownroche, Doneraile, Skull. In 1748 a Richard Hunter of Col Wrights Regiment of Dragoons married a Dorothy Connor in Doneraile. In1795 a Robert Hunter married a Jane Shaghnessy. In Griffith's Valuation the following are recorded as property owners/tenants: Matthew Hunter, Thomas Hunter, William Hunter. To avoid confusion there was Police Constable named "Matthew Hunter" serving in Counties Tipperary and Cork in the 1860's and 1870's who appeared regularly in the Petty Sessions Records.

Credits: www.askaboutireland.ie for Griffith Valuations - Free - www.findmypast.ie and www.rootsireland.ie Subscription Sites.

Regards,

McCoy

Hi Nancy

Thanks for your prompt reply. I hadn't realized that Emeline had a twin sister Emily. All I saw was the the birth date, parentage and gravestone showing William McMurty as Emeline's husband. Emily I wrongly assumed was how she was popularly known. Thanks for all the help, I will keep looking for Philip.

Regards,

 

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - I should have mentioned in my response to you that Emeline and Emily were twin sisters, but it didn't occur to me that that could have been the source of the confusion. I'm glad it's all clear to you now. I did also look on Internet Archive, and the book I referred to with the biography of Matthew Hunter is there, Biographical review : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive .

If you don't mind my asking, how are you related to Matthew and Emily Hunter? Perhaps we are distant cousins?

Nancy

diegobird

Hello, McCoy - Thank you for the information about the Hunters. It will perhaps be of some interest to others posting in this thread.

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy,

First of all many thanks for the link to the above book I had tried Google books to no avail. The book is an excellent resource and I am already using it to confirm my relationship to Matthew. His father William (ca1788-1868), would be my 3xGreat grandfather and I am descended from another brother of Matthew and Alexander. There is lots of circumstantial evidence to support the relationship but I am hoping for more definitive proof. Your book mentions a small home farm in Co. Antrim which is in reality a miserable hillside farm of 19 acres in NW Ballcarry. If you are familiar with Griffith's and updated revision books (see url below) you can see the farm split again to give Stewart 8 acres.  This Stewart is mentioned in Matthew's US obt. elsewhere. There is also more recent evidence in that a number of relatives emigrated at a later date to the area, for example, Samuel Hunter was born in Carrickfergus in 1876 but died at Crown Point in 1945.

  https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/public-record-offi…

I hope to eventually trace Ballycarry Hunter emigration to the U.S. to between 1751-1765 when Sir Arthur Dobbs (from nearby Castle Dobbs) started shipping his tenants to the Colonies en masse. Part of these shipments included Andrew and Elizabeth Jackson from Ballycarry whose son became the 7th President. Another notable couple were the Clements’ (from Clements Hill, between Straid and Ballynure).  They were from nobler ulster stock and the ancestors of Samuel Clements aka. Mark Twain. I know Matthew is recorded as arriving in 1849, (same time as William McMurtry) but his naturalisation records note that he had been over as a minor and I believe this was when he was 12 in 1835.  Names frequently pass down through families and I have an uncle Matthew who was named after his uncle Matthew who was named after Matthew my Great grandfather and this US Matthew would be his uncle.

Regarding names, if you do a civil search of McMurtrys, using the url below, putting in only the family name and a wide date range you will see that most come from the same geographical area of  Mid East Antrim. I have attached a couple of photos of the two local villages I think Matthew Hunter and William McMurtry may have come from.

 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Speak soon

 

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - Thanks so much for the very interesting and helpful information, websites, and lovely photos. You are fleshing out my understanding of where these ancestors came from in ways that I would not be able to do on my own. I have visited the IrishGenealogy website before but not with much success because of a random approach. However, following your tips, I was able to locate a death certificate for Andrew McMurtry, who has been identified by others as my 3X-great grandfather. While I don't have adequate substantiation of that, this is potentially a good find. As well, I was able to locate a marriage record for Jane McMurtry, who is claimed to have been a daughter of Andrew who did not emigrate to the U.S. She married a Hugh Clugston or McClugston. She was also the witness on Andrew's death certificate; he apparently died in Ballyfore, perhaps at her home? It is of note that on her marriage record, one of the witnesses is a Samuel Hunter (year, 1856). So, you have opened up a whole new area of research prospects.

Glad you were able to access the biography on Matthew Hunter. You are fortunate that he was a reasonably prominent person, so that there exists this kind of information on him. I noticed that his obituary in the Ticonderoga Sentinal indicated he was born at "Parrixfarauf, Antrim Co.". Is that a place, or did they totally mess up the name?

Anyway, happy researching! If I find anything further that might be of help, I will let you know. Let's definitely keep in touch.

Thanks again,

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy, 

Great to know you are making progress, The Ballyfore townland is exactly where I would have expected to find traces of the McMurtrys, my mum lives less than a mile away and its close to Glenoe village where a later generation ran a successful Timber Yard. Althought we are currently in lock down I can do some groundwork from over here if you need anything. I will also pass on anything that I find paperwise when I can physically access the PRONI offices in Belfast.

The Parrix- far-auf was misheard, it should have read Carrick-fer-gus (that is Carrickfergus),  which is the closest town to the Ballycarry home farm. If you google it you will see it is dominated by a Norman Castle built in 1177 and was actually captured by an American privateer, Paul Jones, in 1778.

Looking forward to further correspondence

Lloyd

 

l.hunter@btint…
diegobird

Hi Nancy

Thank you so much for the books, the first one in particular is about a Hunter family from Co. Antrim settling in the Carolinas in the 1760s. Maybe it is no coincidence that Sir Arthur Dobbs was Colonial Govenor of North Carolina between1754-65 and was shipping out his Co. Antrim tenants through Carrickfergus.  I can't wait to start researching this potential branch of the family. I know that we had relatives who left for the States before Matthew did in1849.

Thinking about William McMurtry, I suppose it would have been normal to name your eldest child after your father so it would be intuitative to search for an Andrew McMurtry in East Antrim even if you had no other leads. The Samuel who witnessed Jane's wedding may well have been my 2xGreat Grandfather and a brother of Matthew. Samuel would have been 50 at the time and the farms are just over 4 miles apart.

I'm not sure if you are aware of an old Irish ballad by the name 'Carrickfergus'. The lyrics might convey something of how William and Matthew may have have felt in their darker moments. Ballyfore would be at the top of the long and winding road to the sea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJMggxSzxM4

Best wishes and thanks again

Lloyd

 

 

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - I had noticed that the first book in that list had the Hunters located in South Carolina and had wondered whether that would provide any leads for you. I had looked up Sir Arthur Dobbs out of interest, and I believe one website indicated that he had 400,000 acres in North Carolina but also had some land in South Carolina. Not sure if that is correct. Anyway, hope you find something of value and aren't led astray on a wild goose chase.

Thanks for the link to the song. It is lovely. I was not aware of it.

I do have a question. Thanks again to your tips that have opened up new doors, I have been doing more searching regarding Andrew McMurtry (spelled "McMurtray" in these records), in Griffiths Valuation and the Valuation Revision books. I did find him in Ballyfore as early as 1861, with the land reverting to someone else in 1873, which would fit with his death in 1872. However, I also found an Andrew McMurtry in Ballyvallagh as early as 1861, with the land reverting to someone else in 1871. Both listings included a house. Is it possible that this was the same Andrew McMurtry? Could he have been renting property in two places? I understand that these townlands are quite close together? Also, I noticed that the Strange family lived nearby in Ballyvallagh. From documents I have found, it appears that Jane McMurtry married John Strange after her first husband, Hugh Clugston, died. Her two marriages are also suggested in a McMurtry genealogy that I have, although without any documentation. In any case, this would connect the family both with Ballyfore and Ballyvallagh. Any thoughts? You know better than I how things would have worked there during that time.

Take care. Thanks again for your help. Hope to hear from you soon.

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy

Good to hear from you and many thanks for the info above.

It is more than likely that both McMurtry properties were owned by the same Andrew, unfortunately the website that I use to identify the property's precise location is down at the moment. The second house is even closer to the Hunter homestead. When I can locate it on the map I might get a few more clues. The leases on the properties can take many forms but I would suspect they both have a residual value that would go beyond renting. The time delay in selling on the lease probably explains the delay in change of tenant.

I'm not sure if you have read Andrew's will yet but he does specify 'houses' plural (and land) that he is leaving to his grandson John McMurtry. He also leaves some cash to his two married daughters and other grandchildren William Andrew McBride and Jane Clugston. The reason I mention the other grandchildren is that their naming follows the usual pattern -possibly William after the US uncle and Andrew after the grandfather, Jane named after her mother who was at this stage Jane Strange. If you have not read the will yet you can access it on the PRONI website will calanders.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-will-calendars

I will get in touch if I get anymore but I am feeling frustrated that I cannot access the paper records yet that should provide conclusive proof.

Bye for now

Lloyd

 

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - Thanks so much for the reference to Andrew McMurtry's will! What a lot of information to spur further research. I had no idea about this particular site on PRONI. Since a "John McMurtry" is mentioned as Andrew's grandson, I am wondering now if Andrew had a son who remained in Ireland, not just the daughters named. I had previously been thinking that 4 to 5 children (James, William, Andrew, Elizabeth, and possibly Jane) was a rather small number for those times. It makes more sense that there were potentially at least 2 more and that some would have remained in Ireland.

Based on the land records, I need also to investigate the Bells, who are named numerous times in the valuation books. One tree I have seen suggests that Andrew McMurtry was married to Jane Bell, but I haven't seen any documentation. At some point, I also might delve into some of the other (indirect) family members and their spouses, as there are various names cropping up in these records that are consistent with the McMurtry genealogy I have (Hanna, Crawford, McClure, Greer, for example). There is only so much time, though, and so many other direct-line branches to investigate.

I have contacted the National Archives of Ireland regarding a cryptic note in the McMurtry genealogy referencing an Andrew McMurtry in Tureagh, who is possibly the father of Andrew McMurtry of Ballyfore/Ballyvallaugh. The person who put together the genealogy indicated that this connection was uncertain. The contact at the archives indicated they can't currently get in to look at their records, but she sent me the list of documents that are contained in the file referenced, for further inquiry later.

Also wondered if you were aware that there is a William Hunter listed in the Valuation Revision books for Ballyvallagh, with property obtained in 1865 and reverted to someone else (or repossessed?) in 1903. I didn't go back through Griffith's Valuation to track him, though.

Again, thanks for the continuing leads. Keep me posted on how your Hunter research is going. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Nancy 

 

diegobird

Nancy

Just a random afterthought.

The farm was small and the land relatively poor, both houses are now demolished and some of the land has returned to scrub vegetation. The ability of the land to generate income was assessed in field studies that were carried out in the 1850s before Griffith's arrived at rateable values. William may not have had many siblings but a single older brother, who would inherit the little that existed, would have been enough motivation to emmigrate.

It is unusual for a small farmer such as Andrew to have paid to have a will drawn up and most simply went to probate if they had any assets. Simply put, I am surprised that Andrew had cash to leave to anyone. We don't know where Andrew's money came from but I am wondering if it was sent home from the States. I don't know if money left a paper trial in the 1850s-60s.

Lloyd 

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - Sorry for the delay in responding; I got caught up with other genealogy tasks. Very interesting and helpful thoughts you had. I still don't quite understand how Andrew could have left the houses and land to his grandson if he was a renter. Was he just passing on rights to continue the tenancy? If so, would there have been any monetary value to that if grandson John chose not to occupy the land? Could the houses have been improvements that Andrew had added to the land? 

I just received a transcript from the Penfield Homestead Museum in the Crown Point, NY area of a letter written in 1849 from the Crawford family in Ireland to their son James in NY. The Crawfords were relatives in a roundabout way, and it appears the different families in Ireland took turns writing and sharing news with the children in New York. I had wanted the letter because of its reference to the death of Andrew McMurtry's wife (unfortunately they don't state her first name but do give the exact date and even time). Anyway, there also was the following (difficult to interpret due to lack of punctuation, etc.): "...we would have wrote sooner but our land is out of lease now we were expecting that we would have knew about the office day what rent it would be we could have told you in our letter but wouldn't know yet what be..." Are you able to figure this out? In any case, it does make me wonder if the son James Crawford in New York was helping with the rent in Ireland, as you suggested for the McMurtry situation. Does "office day" refer to the day rents were paid?

Thanks for your help with this! Please don't feel you have to write a lengthy answer to explain things. 

Hope things are well with you,

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy

Good to hear from you, that sounds like a fascinating letter that someone had the foresight to preserve; do you have an address for the Crawfords?  The letter does seem to hint that money might have been travelling eastwards. I have temporarily parked some of the Hunter research until March in the hope of finding physical evidence in the shelves of the PRONI offices. Until then I am doing background research spanning the 17th and 18th century history of the area.

In answer to your question the short answer is that there was an economic value attached to leaseholds especially if the lease had some time to run. The value would be greater if the lease holder could sub-let at a higher rent than the rate that had been set by the landlord potentially a decade or more before. Andrew died two years after the1870 Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act which may also have encouraged him to write a will.

With regards to the Crawford letter, tenants in the 1840s generally had less protection, long term leases common in the previous century were not renewed. Instead tenants were usually given an annual tenancy which offered little protection.  The only exception being the Ulster Custom of Tenant Right. This custom usually meant that a tenant would not be evicted if he paid his rent. If the farmer left the farm, for whatever reason, he would expect to be entitled to a sum of money from the incoming tenant which reflected the value of the farm at that time. Estate records are likely to contain more information on individual tenancy terms and some are filed at PRONI.

That is probably as much as you want to read but if you interested in some background read on.

The late 18th century was a turbulent time in the area and the primary reason was expiring longer term leaseholds which gave landlords the opportunity to evict local farmers from land they had improved or demand heavy fines for the renewal of leases. (I think you may have access to the Belfast Newsletter if you have an international Ancestry subscription). The Newspaper catalogues what happened to the farms tenants were evicted from:

3rd September 1765, "To be let for leases for lives, the following farms in the parish of Raloo and county of Antrim, part of the estate of the right Hon. A. Trevor." "15 farms, more than 400 acres." "The lands within 10 miles of Belfast and 3 of Larne."

29th September 1769, "To be let the following lands in the parish of Raloo, county of Antrim, part of estate of viscount Dungannon: Allelevelly, 2 farms, Ballyrickard, 4 farms, Ballyvalloh 4 farms, Carneal, 2 farms, Toreagh, 1 farm.

The above evictions contributed to migration to the US but also culminated in the Presbyterian led United Irishmen rebellion of 1798. The rebellion failed and some of the leaders were executed at Carrickfergus Castle, others were deported. Ulster was the epicentre of the rebellion and the Ulster custom may have evolved from attempts to pacify the Ulster Scots and slow down migration.

Eventually there was a raft of legalisation that incrementally improved the lot of tenant farmers I will only mention two that are pertinent to Andrew’s farm around the time of his death.

The 1870 Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act: Which sought to compensate tenants for improvements made by them to their holding or for any disturbance to their occupancy.

The 1881 Land Law (Ireland) Act: Effectively tenants were granted "judicial tenancies" for a statutory term of 15 years renewable every 15 years with a revision of rent at each renewal.  The act also legalised the Ulster custom of tenant right.

I’m sure if you read the above you are ready to sleep so I will wish you a good night

Lloyd

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - Thanks so much for taking the time to put together all of that historical information. It helps my understanding of the situation, and it certainly didn't put me to sleep!

I believe the letter was from David Crawford, who lived in Tureagh (Toreagh in the letter). There is no other address indicated. I did find him (I am assuming) in Griffiths and the  revision books, apparently on the same piece of land up until 1881, when it changed hands. The map reference is 44C, if that is of any use to you. I believe I found his death record, for 1880. It looks like the Crawfords held a number of properties in Tureagh. There were several McMurtrys (McMurtray) in that area as well, and there are Knox and Snoddy families referenced in the letter, who also showed up in the land records.

In my researching yesterday, I ran across the Irish Emigration Database, with which you probably are already familiar. If not, you might wish to search the Hunter name at some point. You never know...Here is the website, though I believe PRONI also has this: Irish Emigration Database (IED) - Mellon Centre for Migration Studies (mellonmigrationcentre.com) . 

Thanks again,

Nancy

diegobird

Hi Nancy

Many thanks for the link to the Mellon database. I have not started looking at the Hunters again and continue to be side tracked. I was wondering if you ever looked through the Raloo Applotment of Tithes book (1833). At one time Church and State were closely linked in the UK and even in Northern Ireland the dissenters (Presbyterians) had to pay tithes to the Anglican church. Page 11 entry 103 shows Andrew on site in Ballyfore with just 4 acres one of which is described as 5th class, (the lowest I have seen). Needless to say the tithe amounted to very little. The book can be downloaded from the PRONI website by clicking through to the eCatalogue and searching for 'Raloo tithe'. The file is 86 MB or I would have attached it.

When we get access again to the paper based records we might be able to take things further back, I am hoping a 1747 document at PRONI will give us more regarding tenancy at the time. Also accessing earlier church records will show who begat who allowing us to confirm the McMurtry lineage or otherwise.

Bye for now

Lloyd

l.hunter@btint…

Hi, Lloyd - I am in the process of downloading the applotment book right now. Big file, for sure. Thank you so much for the lead on this. I believe I had tried to find this before, or search it, unsuccessfully. I do appreciate your help; I do not find Irish research as daunting as before! But I hope that this is not keeping you from your own pursuits. I know the McMurtry connection is tangential for you.

Thanks again, and if I find anything of interest to you will let you know!

Nancy

diegobird

Hello All. Phillip Clough and Sarah Sartwell Clough are also my 3rd great grandparents through their daughter, Mary Etta Clough Smith. Thank you for the info you shared, some I had but some is new. Just curious does anyone have a photo of Phillip and Sarah? I went to high school in So Glens Falls, NY. There were two families with the CLOUGH spelling. One was Cliff and the other (like cloud with no D). I didn't know them. Sarah and Phillip lost 3 children (Matilda, Pray and Samuel) in 1856 due to cholera. They are buried in Ironville Cemetery. It was nice reading your posts and again thank you for the info. Cherie

Cherie05Tucker…

It was Cluff not Cliff. Spell check helping again

Cherie05Tucker…

Hi, Cherie - Nice to "meet" another cousin! There is one portrait each for Philip and Sarah posted on various Ancestry trees. I assume that these are correctly identified, as they appear to have come from a scrapbook page that also included William and Emeline (Clough) McMurtry, Kate Clough, and Belle (McMurtry) Letson.

I believe "Pray" is actually "Pyra".

Hope that helps.

Nancy

diegobird

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