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Philip Brien /Winifred Donohue Fethard Co., Tipperary

Hello! I am hoping to learn about the ancestors and descendants of the subject family. They are ancestors to my wife, Sandy.

First, please note that I have very little information on Winifred Donohue except for a birth year of abt. 1863 in Tipperary. However, for Philip, I have his marriage date to Winifred of 11Nov1878 (Catholic Parish Registers, The National Library of Ireland; Dublin, Ireland; Microfilm Number: Microfilm 02504 / 08). I have also found a Philip O'Brien who appears to have died at sea during WWI on 10Oct1918 (Ancestry.com, Ireland, World War I Casualties, 1914-1922 and Military-Genealogy.com, comp, UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919 (Provo, UT, USA, Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2008), Ancestry.com), but I am not sure if this is the same Philip who married Winifred Donohue.

I am reasonably certain that "my" Philip BRIEN (b. in Tipperary in abt. 1853) and Winifred (b. in Tipperary in abt. 1863) are shown in the 1901 Census of Ireland as follows: 

  Philip, head - 48

  Winifred, wife - 38

  Johanna , dau - 18

  John O'Brien, son - 14

  Margaret, dau - 10

  Philip Brien, son - 6

  Winifred, dau - 1

In the 1901 Census, Phillip is shown to be a shepherd with the family belonging to the Catholic Church. All family members are shown to have been born in Tipperary. Furthermore, Philip is shown on the House and Building Return for 1901 to be living Tullamain, Cashel, East Tipperary with a total of seven family members in this household at the time.

This same family was found in the 1911 Ireland Census as follows:

  Phillip, head - 60

  Winny, wife - 45

  Martin, son - 31

  Phillip, son - 16

  Winny, dau - 11

  Winny, g-child - 7 (maybe Martin's daughter?)

All family members are shown to have been born in Tipperary EXCEPT for the granddaughter, Winny, who is shown to have be born in Liverpool.

Josephine (my wife's great-grandmother who I believe is the same person as Johanna from the 1901 Census of Ireland) and her sister Margaret emigrated in1900 according to the 1910 US Census. Josephine married Anton Fuessel in 1903, but I do not know the location (I suspect either New York or New Jersey). They eventually settled in Trenton, NJ and  had the following children:

  Mary Fuessel b. 10Sep1905 Brooklyn, NY

  Rudolph Fuessel b. 22Oct1907, Trenton, NJ

  Florence Fuessel b. 10Jun1911 Trenton, NJ

  Blanche Fuessel b. 31Jul1913 Trenton, NJ

  Eleanor Fuessel b. 12Aug1917 New York

  Karl Fuessel b. 19Apr1921 Trenton, NJ

  Louella Fuessel b. 17Feb1923 Trenton, NJ

Josephine's sister, Margaret, married Chester Kennedy on24Dec1912 in Trenton, New Jersey and had one child, Winfred Pearl Kennedy (17Nov1914 - 23Jun2006).

Finally, I believe that John Brien (parents shown as Philip Brien and mother Winfred Donohue on John's marriage license application AND father Philip O'Brien from Tullamaine, Fethard, Tipperary shown on a 1920 passenger list) also emigrated to the USA and married Kathleen Nolan on 28Feb1924 in Ohio.

Provided that I am, in fact, on the right path, I would welcome the opportunity to learn more about the ancestors of Philip Brien and Winifred Donohue. In addition, I would welcome the opportunity to learn more about their children (those who remained in Ireland) and their families. Any and all assistance with this search will be most appreciated.

Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

14 replies

Michael,

I saw your tree on Ancestry, and just a few comments/corrections....on Philip's 1878 civil marriage record, it shows that his father's name is William (dead) and Winifred's father is just listed as Donohue (dead). So, the parents that you have for Philip - Denis Brien & Mary Wade - cannot be correct. That baptism record is not from the RC parish of Fethard, where the town land of Coolmoyne is where Philip is from. I found a baptism record as follows: Philip Brien, 19 Apr 1859, parents William Brien & Judy Herrick, RC parish Fethard, Tipperary. This record will show up when you do an Ancestry search. His marriage record shows he was 20 years old at the time, and this baptism record is pretty close to that. Also, I think that his son Philip died in WWI, not the father...a 60 plus year old shepherd would probably not go to war. Also, the second pension ledger card that you have on the father's list of sources has the word "mother" below his address. Finally, I have attached the death record from 1934 for Philip O'Brien, the father.

Regards,

 

carolyntoohey@…

Also, attached is Winifred Donohue O'Brien's death record in 1940...looks like she was living with her daughter Winifred and husband Richard Delahunty.

 

carolyntoohey@…

Mike,

Attached is the marriage record for William Brien to Johanna Walsh on 8 Nov 1911...you'll see that his brother Martin was one of the witnesses. I could not locate a marriage or death record for Martin. William and Johanna had a son named William born 15 Jul 1914, Tullamaine. That record is available to view on irishgenealogy.ie under the civil records tab. 

 

carolyntoohey@…

Mike,

 Based on the info provided by Caroline above, this is probably Philip and Winifred's daughter Winifred marriage record. Found on Irishgenealogy (free)

Party 1 Name Richard Delahunty
Party 2 Name Winifred O'Brien
Date of Event 13 February 1935
Group Registration ID 1398833
SR District/Reg Area Cashel
  Image 

5236358.pdf

Regards- Mary

 

mtvrdk@gmail.com

Carolyn and Mary - WOW! Thank you so much for all of the information! Admittedly, I will need time to process all of this and to conduct additional research. I cannot express enough how appreciative my wife and I are to receive this information. I will be in touch once I have had time to work through this. Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

RootsIreland shows eight children for Winifred, born 1879-1899.

glanvil3@aol.com

Michael,

I see from my first reply that I forgot to add the birth record for William...he is the eighth child that Patrica mentioned above. It is attached here. William also had a daughter, Bridget born 5 Sept 1912. 

Regards,

 

carolyntoohey@…

Good day, Carolyn, Mary, and Patricia. Thank you, again, for providing this information to me - it is very helpful! I have, however, found that I am missing one of Philip's and Winifred's eight children. So far, I have evidence of William, Martin, Johanna, John, Margaret, Philip, and Winifred. I have been searching through the resources that you mentioned in your prior correspondence to me, but have not yet found this "missing" child. Have any of you seen evidence of anyone else? If not, I will simply continue my search.

Also, I am curious to know if any of you could recommend a resource in Cashel who may be able to put me in touch with any of my wife's living cousins that may still be in the area. While Google indicates that there are about 5,000 people living in Cashel, I am hopeful that you may have some ideas (it can't hurt to ask, right?).

In the meantime, I am continuing to learn more about navigating the online records and am enjoying the journey. Again, I truly appreciate the time and effort that you have given freely to help me.

Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

All:

One other question - I found the attached birth record for Philip Brien (son of Philip Brien and Winifred Donohue) which indicates a birth date of 12Aug1893. This date (and location) contradicts what I have seen from Find-A-Grave and the RMS Leinster information you previously shared with me. That birth date is shown to be 10Sep1895 in Monroe. The attached birth record certainly looks like it belongs with my BRIEN family, but, based upon the prior information received, now I am not so sure. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this matter if you have a few more minutes.

Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

All:

I have also found and attached the civil birth record for Philip Brien indicating a birth date of 10Sep1895 as previously discussed. The parents names are the same as on the 1893 civil birth record - the main difference between the two (besides the date of birth) is the location of the birth and the name of the informant. Thoughts? 

Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

Hi Michael,

So, I went back to Roots Ireland to discover this family actually had ten children! Attached are Edmond Brien's birth record, 1889, and Patrick Brien's, 1885. Yes, I believe that they had two sons named Philip with the first one (1893) probably died young, so the next son was also named Philip (1895)...a common occurrence to do that. This family moved around a bit as I counted six different town lands on the children's birth records - some of the town lands are adjacent to one another. Philip, the father, is listed as a laborer in all the births except Winifred's where he is then a herds man. So, it would not be unusual to move around a bit if one was a laborer looking for employment. 

Here are the ten children and their birth years: William, 1879; Martin, 1881; Johanna, 1883; Patrick, 1885; John, 1887; Edmond, 1889: Mary, 1891; Philip, 1893; Philip, 1895; Winifred, 1899. The person reporting a birth was not always the mother...it could be a midwife as well, so don't be concerned about that information. 

Sorry, but I am not any help to finding any Cashel sources for living relations.

Regards,

 

carolyntoohey@…

Hi, Carolyn.

Thank you, again, for the time you've spent working on this. Everything that you've sent to me is valuable information which is very much appreciated. I admit that I was a bit surprised about the re-use of given names. I understand the reasoning, but had not experienced it until now. This fascinating custom and your explanation allowed me to make sense of everything.

Happy Holidays!

Sincerely, Michael Gale

Michael Gale

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