OConnell/OKeefe/Moore of County Cork

Hello Kathy,

I found an 1813 baptism record for a Philip Moore recorded in the Glanmire, County Cork Catholic Parish. Glanmire borders the Catholic Parish of Watergrasshill, and so this baptism may refer to your Philip. I also uncovered the Glanmire baptisms of 3 of Philip’s older siblings.

The parents of these children are Philip Moore and Johanna Dineen, though in the baptism records the mother’s first and last names have variant spellings, in a time period when the spelling of names was not standardized.

The baptism records for the Moore children were all found online for free.

Go to the National Library of Ireland website link and you’ll see that the Catholic parishes of Glanmire and Watergrasshill border one another in County Cork. The link is at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0053

A Google Map shows that Watergrasshill, by the shortest routes using the M8 dual carriageway and the R639 secondary road, is only 7.4 miles north of Glanmire. See the Google Map at: https://is.gd/FjdIkg

If you would like these baptism records please let me know and I’ll send them to you in a follow-up reply.

Thank You and Happy Saint Patrick’s Day.

Dave Boylan

My O'connell's were from Knockraheen, Cork, parish of Clondrohid. Marriages were usually performed in the bride's parish so you might want to check out Clondrohid.

 

Dave, would really appreciate it is you would send me the baptismal records you found.  I have seen the Johanna Dinesen name somewhere in my genealogy searches.  I will have to check all my documents.  I hope you are well.  We are staying home and hoping not to get the Coronavirus.  So far, our area isn't having any people with positive tests.  

 

 

Reets, thank you I will check our Clondrohid for my O'Connells.

 

 

Hello Kathy,

Many thanks for your reply.

I did some additional research concerning baptism records for Watergrasshill, and found that baptism records do not begin for this Catholic Parish until 1836. It appears too, that no marriage records are available for the Watergrasshill Catholic parish before 1836. This information comes from the National Library of Ireland website at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0099

Watergrasshill spanned two different civil parishes in Cork. These civil parishes were Ardnageehy and Kilquane.

Knockraha, where Daniel O’Connell may have been from was in the civil parish of Kilquane.

According to a book by Brian Mitchell called “A Guide To Irish Parish Registers,” people living in the civil parish of Kilquane, where Knockraha was located, would have attended Catholic church in Watergrasshill. This means that there will not be baptism records for children born in Knockraha before the year 1836 either, unfortunately.

I did not have this information when I first replied. Kathy, there is no way knowing if the Philip Moore baptized in the Glanmire Catholic Parish in 1813 is your ancestor. You would need to know the name of his father and name of his mother, especially his mother’s maiden name, beforehand to making a positive identification.

I can still send you the baptism information for Philip and his siblings in the Glanmire Parish, but I would hate to send you down the wrong path with information that may not refer to your ancestors, especially since information you have shows they came from Watergrasshill and Knockraha, and not the nearby Catholic parish of Glanmire in County Cork.

Best Wishes,

Dave

 

Hi Dave,  I have a transcript of a baptismal record for Michael Moore with a date of May 12, 1811 and an Anthony Moore with a date of August 24, 1808.  The parents are Philip Moore and Johanna Dinneen/Dineen.  They are from Glanmire, RC.  There was also a record for Philip Moore date of birth and baptism Oct. 24, 1813.  Again, the parents are Philip and Johanna.  I also have a marriage record for a Philip Moore and Bridget Connell February 20, 1844 in the parish of Glounthaune.  There were two other records I am not sure about:  Johanna Moore born and baptized December 7, 1844 with parents being Philip Moore and Honora Connell, Watergrasshill Grenville, RC Parish; Philip Moore born and baptized July 23, 1846 with parents being Philip Moore and Bridget Connell, Glanmire, RC.  Honora Connell was one of the sponsors.  I know the Irish use names over and over from generation to generation.  I am not sure I will ever solve the mystery of my Moore and O'Connell lines.  If you have any thoughts, please do not hesitate to let me know.  Thank you so much.  Best Regards,  Kathy in California

 

Hi Kathy,

How did you come by the information that your ancestors were from the Watergrasshill and Knockraha? Do you have actual documentation from Iowa, that is birth, baptism, marriage, or death records that state the family came from those areas of Cork, or did you find the information online provided by another researcher. If you found the information online from another person, can you send me a link to that information so that I can take a look at it. If you have actual documents from Iowa recording that the ancestors came from Watergrasshill and Knockraha, can you send those documents as attachments in your next reply?

Thanks Kathy,

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave,

My info came from their headstones at the cemetery in Dubuque, Iowa and from obituaries.  Thus, the info came from their families.  Iowa did not have any civil records until 1880.  I will have to check on death certificates for Bridget O'Connell Moore.  I don't think ever got one.

Kathy

 

Hi Dave,  I looked at some of the paperwork I have on Philip Moore and Bridget O'Connell.  Philip died in 1883 and the death register just says he was born in Ireland.  He came to the US in 1848 first landing in NY where he stayed for "a short while".  He was then in St. Louis, MO for about 2 years before settling in Dubuque, IA. I believe I found something that said he was born in Watergrasshill. It was Daniel O'Connell, father of Bridget, who was supposed to have been born in Knockraha in 1797, Townland of Ballanwenna/Ballawen (sp?) parish of Kenorkrane.  Daniel married Bridget O'Keefe who was supposedly from Ballanwenna or Ballynanelagh (can't find theseTownlands).  Bridget O'Keefe was supposed to be from Watergrasshill (born 1798).  Some of this information came from a family history of Patrick O'Connor who married Anna O'Connell, daughter of Daniel and Bridget (O'Keefe) O'Connell.  I admit this is confusing but it may be of some help.  Thank you for all of your help and suggestions. Stay well, Kathy

 

Hello Kathy,

Many thanks for your reply with the information about Watergrasshill coming from the headstones and obituaries. The information on the headstones, I would say, is prime source material because it came from either Philip’s wife Bridget or one of his children.

I accessed the Moore headstone at the Find A Grave website and saw that the inscription for Philip states that he was, “a Native of the Parish of Grasshill Co. Cork Ireland,” and that Bridget was “a native of Cork County Ireland.”

Also at Find A Grave I read the sad newspaper account of Philip’s accidental death by a shotgun that he was removing from under the bed in the upstairs bedroom of his and Bridget’s home, so that his grandchild could not get ahold of it. What a tragedy that must have been for the family and especially for Bridget late in her life.

Concerning the towns you mentioned, Knockraha was in the civil parish of Kilquane, as well as the Catholic Parish of Kilquane. According to a book by Brian Mitchell called, “A Guide To Irish Parish Registers,” Catholic parishioners who lived in the Kilquane Parish, attended church in the Watergrasshill Catholic Parish.

The other town you mentioned would be Ballynanelagh, which was also in the civil and Catholic parishes of Kilquane. Catholics living in Ballynanelagh would have also been parishioners of the Watergrasshill Catholic Parish at the time period that your ancestors lived there. More on this later.

A Google Map shows that Knockraha and Ballynanelagh are only 1/3rd of a mile from one another: https://is.gd/U0pJqb

For a Google Street View of Knockraha, go to: https://is.gd/dga2mJ

For a Google Street View of Ballynanelagh, see: https://is.gd/djCWBE

Yet a second Google Map shows that Knockraha and Ballynanelagh are 5 miles south of Watergrasshill: https://is.gd/M1pwxU

Watergrasshill was the parish church, but there may have been smaller chapels in the area that also belonged to the Watergrasshill Catholic Parish. To find out I accessed ordnance survey maps for Knockraha as well as Ballynanelagh from the 1837 to 1842 time period, to see if any Catholic chapels were located in those towns. I found there was a Catholic Chapel in Knockraha, next to the school house. You can see the location of the chapel on the Ordnance Survey Map from GeoHive at: https://bit.ly/3bJacq7

Another Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period shows the location of Ballynanelagh just south of the R.C. Chapel in Knockraha: https://bit.ly/2xvAkFU

When the map appears make sure to click on, “Close Menu” to view the full map showing Knockraha and the R.C. Chapel in the upper left corner of the page.

Your Knockraha and Ballynanelagh ancestors would have likely attended the chapel in Knockraha rather than in Watergrasshill, as the chapel would have been a lot closer to their homes than the church in Watergrasshill.

A third Ordnance Survey Map, from the 1888 to 1913 time period shows that the Catholic Church in Knockraha is called St. Mary’s R.C. Church: https://bit.ly/3apJy5j

For a Google Street View of St. Mary’s Church in Knockraha, go to: https://is.gd/wAJdIF

It appears that the Catholic Church in Knockraha split from the Watergrasshill Parish and became part of the Parish of Glounthaune. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockraha

Brian Mitchell’s book notes however that the parish registers for the Glounthaune Parish do not begin until the year 1864, which would have been after your ancestors left Ireland, and so it is feasible to surmise that any baptisms in Knockraha and Ballynanelagh before the formation of the Glounthaune Catholic Parish, would be housed in the Watergrasshill Catholic Parish Church of the Immaculate Conception, that is, if the baptism registers exist before 1836 .

According to a link at the Glounthaune Parish website, St Mary’s Church in Knockraha was constructed in 1803, and then enlarged and renovated in 1982. See: http://homepage.eircom.net/~cnk/churches.htm#Knockraha

Kathy, over the past couple of days I’ve been really thinking about Watergrasshill and how the baptism parish registers for the Catholic Church are only available from the year 1836, and that no marriage records are available, according to the National Library of Ireland website link at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0099

I looked for as much information as possible online about Watergrasshill, and found a very interesting biography of one of the early 19th century parish priests named Father Daniel Prout, who was born in 1757 and died in 1830. He arrived as the priest in Watergrasshill in 1806, when there wasn’t even a church or a presbytery. A Presbytery in the U.S is known as a rectory. The biography also mentions that the church that Father Prout built is no longer standing but was in a location where a parking lot now sits in Watergrasshill. You can read the full biography about Father Prout, written by Michael Fitzgerald of Thurles, Tipperary, at the following historicgraves.com link at: https://historicgraves.com/church-assumption-graveyard/ts-cagb-0327/gra…

Scroll half way down the page to read about father Prout.

The present day church in Watergrasshill is called Church of the Immaculate Conception, and according to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, is situated in a section of Watergrasshill called Tinageragh, and was built in 1895. In the Appraisal section of the article, the author noted that this church was constructed across the street from the old church, which may have been the church built by Father Prout. See the Buildings of Ireland article about the Church of the Immaculate Conception, along with a slide show of the church at: https://is.gd/6q9pjX

You can view the location of the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Watergrasshill at the following Google link: https://is.gd/pHTwY7

For a Google Street View of the church, go to: https://is.gd/yjj7zP

An Ordnance Survey Map from the 1837 to 1842 time period shows the location of the R.C. Chapel in Watergrasshill. This may be the church that was built when Father Prout was the parish priest and maybe where Philip Moore, as well as the O’Connells and O’Keefes were baptized. The map is from the GeoHive website: https://bit.ly/3dBZ1Bh

An another Ordnance Survey Map from the late 19th or early 20th century time period shows that the R.C. Church in Watergrasshill is in its present location: https://bit.ly/3dzVXWk

We now know there was a church in Watergrasshill when Philip Moore and possibly Bridget O’Keefe lived there. The question I have is, “Why are there no parish registers available for the Watergrasshill Catholic Church before 1836?

Another question is, “If there were parish registers before 1836, do they still exist and if so, where are they?

What you can do is write to the parish priest in Watergrasshill, and explain that your Moore/O’Connell and O’Keefe ancestors came from Watergrasshill, Knockraha, and Ballynanelagh and were born there, say from 1810 to 1825. Explain that the National Library of Ireland has Watergrasshill parish register baptisms beginning in 1836, but not before.

You can also mention that Father Daniel Prout became parish priest in Watergrasshill in 1806 and died in 1830, and that you would like to know if there are any parish registers of baptisms and marriage for Watergrasshill from the time that Father Prout was the parish priest there. If there are parish registers, are they kept at the Church of the Immaculate Conception?

The name of the parish priest you can write to is the Very Rev. Donal Cotter. His email address is: donalcotter@eircom.net

Or you can send a letter to him at:

The Very Rev. Donal Cotter
Parochial House, Watergrasshill, Co Cork
____

Father Cotter probably knows about his long-ago predecessor, Father Daniel Prout.

Hopefully Father Cotter will respond to your query.

Kathy, do you plan to visit Ireland in the future when this plague is over with? If so you will find it thrilling to visit the towns in County Cork where your ancestors came from all those years ago.

With Best Wishes,

Dave

Hello Dave,

Thank you so much for all of the information.  We were actually in Ireland 27 Sept. 2019 to 11 Oct. 2019.  We did spend 3 nights in Cork City and did some excursions from there.  We were in Watergrasshill on 30 Sept. and had lunch at Johnny's Restaurant.  I went inside the Church of the Immaculate Conception and had sent an email to them but never received a reply.  I will write a letter directly to Father Cotter per your suggestion.  I will let you know if I get a response.  We also drove through a part of Knockraha but did not stop.  I have a photo of a brick wall with a sign that says Knockraha (Cnoc Ratha).  I think our GPS took us there on some back road. 

 

If my other ancestors names are correct, Maurice O'Connell (allegedly my Daniel's father) married a Catherine O'Mullane in 1720 in Whitechurch.  She was allegedly from Mallow.  We did not go to either of those towns.  I probably needed about a week to check out all the possibilities in County Cork.  We toured the Isle in two weeks time including parts of Northern Ireland.  One of favorite places was the town of Cong in County Mayo.  The John Wayne movie, "Quiet Man" was filmed there.  It was so peaceful there.

Best Regards and stay well!!

Kathy

 

 

You're welcome Kathy. Hopefully Father Cotter will respond to your query.

It sounds like you had a very nice time in Ireland last year visiting the places where your ancestors had lived, and hopefully you'll be able to make it back again. My relatives and friends in Ireland would always ask me when I was going to "Come back home again," to see them. They always made you feel welcome.

Cong is a very special place with all the sites you can visit from the Quiet Man. The cast with John Wayne, Maureen O'Hara, Victor McLaglen, Barry Fitzgerald, his brother Arthur Shields, Ward Bond, director John Ford, and others all stayed in the Ashford Castle hotel, though when I was in Cong the rooms were too expensive. When in Ireland I've always stayed in Farmhouse B&Bs, or rented a house.

I'm glad you made it to Northern Ireland. A lot of Americans still will not go there, but I spent a week in Ballycastle, way up on the coast of County Antrim, where I rented a house for week right on the shore, where on a clear day you can see clear to Rathlin Island. I think the Antrim coast and the western cost of County Cork are some of the most beautiful areas in Ireland.

Please keep in touch Kathy and let me know if you hear from Father Cotter.

Again, thanks for writing.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Hi Dave,

When we were in Cong we stayed at Ryans River Lodge.  The price was reasonable, the breakfast was very good, the room small but comfortable and it looked out over the Cong River.  We saw swans every day going back and forth.  Unfortunately, Cohan's Bar was already closed for the winter.  I will begetting a letter off to Father Cotter in the next few days, lots of time on our hands since we have to stay home.  I only wish I could discover a few long lost cousins in Ireland.  I also have an Irish ancestor that may have been from Northern Ireland.  However, I have found three different places of birth:  Northern Ireland, County Cork and aboard ship when he parents came to America before 1800.  That surname is Shields.  I have a lot of information on the family after they arrived and eventually settled in Ohio.

Take care and stay well,

Kathy

 

 

Hi Kathy,

Your Shields ancestor may be a challenge, as most Catholic Churches in Ireland do not have parish registers before 1800, though some do, especially in the larger cities such as Dublin and Cork City. In Cork City for example, two Catholic parishes have registers before 1800. These are St. Mary's (1748); and St. Peter's and St. Paul's (1766). Some Church of Ireland registers go back even further, such as Cork Holy Trinity, also known as Christ Church, with registers going back to 1643. The Cork St. Nicholas Church of Ireland has registers commencing in 1748; while Cork St. Peter's and St. Paul's has registers back to 1766.

When I was in Cong many years ago Cohan's Bar was open, but I believe it was a store that never took down the bar sign put on the facade of the buildings by John Ford and his crew. I don't believe they ever filmed inside the place though. Also when I was there there was a gas pump just outside Cohans, but I see now from Google Street View that the gas pump is gone, as I don't believe it was there when the movie was filmed in 1952.

I also remember a tourist bus running into the curbing of the iconic Cong Cross which is also in the movie.

Since the virus struck I've been responding to a lot of genealogy questions on the Ireland XO message boards, but of all the messages I've responded to in the last three weeks, only yourself and one or two other people have written back. It's a whole new world out there Kathy, concerning genealogy etiquette, and that's why I thank you very much for writing, as it is rare when I see a message in my inbox from Ireland XO these days.

Please keep me posted on any new information you may find and I hope you and your family are keeping safe.

As my Irish cousins and friends in Kerry, Limerick, and Tipperary would say after a visit with them, "Slán Abhaile."

Thank you for writing Kathy,

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the additional information.  

I have not decided if I will pursue any more information on my Shields line.  I did get to meet a Shields cousin in Ohio 10 years ago.  He still lives in the Shields Homestead.  There is also a Job/Jobs/Jobes (3 different spellings of the surname) who ended up in Ohio and they were neighbors to the Shields families.  I have 2 books on this line.  They originally were in New Jersey back as far as 1664.  They did belong to the First Reformed Dutch Church so I think it is safe to say they they may not have been Irish.  My third great grandfather was a Jobes who fought and died in the Civil War in the Battle of Jonesboro.

I also have my Irish Rooney ancestors.  I think they were from County Roscommon but I have seen County Cork as a possible birth place for my Bernard Rooney as well as County Roscommon.  We did not get to Roscommon on our trip.  I wish I had more time in Ireland.

I have sent many messages to people on Ancestry and many do not respond.  I always respond even if I don't have additional information to share.

Stay well,

Kathy

You're welcome Kathy. If I ever can be of anymore assistance with Irish genealogy, please let me know, as I believe we will be having a lot of free time for the next month or two due to the virus.

Best Wishes and thank you for your reply.

Dave