I need Birth Certificates for two of my great-grandfathers, who were both born in Ireland, before 1864. One was born in 1852 in County Sligo… and the other was born in 1859 in County Monaghan. I know how to order Birth Certificates online – but only for people born after 1864. Any ideas how I can get them from these earlier dates? Thanks in advance.
Birth certificates didn’t exist in Ireland prior to 1864 so you can’t obtain any for folk born in the 1850s. The best you can hope for is to locate their baptisms. If they were RC then the records are on-line on the nli site. If they are another denomination then you would need to give us the details (ie parish & exact denomination) so we can suggest where to search.
Here's the data on one of my Irish great-grandfathers…
John Beatty Hamilton was born at "Edenaferkin, County Monaghan, Ireland" on December 17, 1859 – according to his U.S. passport application, in 1900. He immigrated into the United States at age 6, in 1865. His father, Thomas A. Hamilton, came from Biggar, Lanarkshire, Scotland. J.B. Hamilton was not RC, but was, instead, Protestant, born to Scots-Irish parents.
Here is a page that locates a Hamilton family in the Tullycorbet Parish, in 1860: https://bit.ly/34pMT3h
Is this at all helpful? Thank you!
preslinc,
The link you have provided to Griffiths takes me to records in Co. Antrim. I doubt you intended that. However I looked at Griffiths Valuation for Ednafirkin (more commonly Edenaferkin) in Co. Monaghan in 1860 as well as at the tithe applotment records for 1834. There was a James Hamilton farming there in both sets of records. There were only about 8 farms in the townland and just the one Hamilton so a connection to your family wouldn't be too surprising.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
There were no Hamiltons in the townland by the time of the 1901 census. So the family had died out or moved away.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Caddagh/Edena…
As you know Edenaferkin is in the parish of Tullycorbet. If the family was Protestant then they were probably either Church of Ireland or Presbyterian. Tullycorbet Church of Ireland has records from 1796 onwards (with a few gaps) plus there are 2 Presbyterian churches. Cahans has records from 1751 and Clontibret 2nd from 1858. I don’t think any of these records are on-line but there are copies of all in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. A personal visit is required to access them. Access to the records there is free. This link explains what records exist, parish by parish:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records
If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net
I see John Hamilton on numerous trees on Ancestry. All seem to have the same date of birth (17.12.1859 ) but some have his mother as Selina Armstrong and others as Jane Cuddy Beatty. Some have his spouse as Elizabeth Anderson and others as Roberta Cornelia Deyo. He also appears to have died twice. Once in PA on 15.4.1929 and then again there on 1.10.1936. Some have his father Thomas as born in Biggar, Scotland and others in Tyrone, Ireland. Busy man. So some care is needed in ensuring you get the correct records.
There’s an erratic feel to the information on some of the trees. I looked at one (Joe’s tree, which I hope is not yours) and it has Thomas born Tyrone, marrying in Lisburn, Co Antrim, having children in Tyrone, then Monaghan, then Tyrone again before dying in Tyrone. All are possible, just unlikely and it smacks of information trawled from the internet without proper verification. In my opinion it’s likely several unconnected families have been mixed up.
An important thing to understand is that not all birth, death and marriage records in Ireland are on-line, and also that a lot of records are missing. So just because someone finds a record around the right period, and it’s the only one on the database it doesn’t mean it’s right. Especially with a common surname like Hamilton which abounds in Ireland & Scotland.
I am little curious about Thomas A Hamilton being born in Biggar, Lanarkshire, c 1825 and then having children in Co Monaghan in 1859. It’s not a big journey and certainly quite possible. However the major migration of Scots to Ireland was in the 1600s. By the 1800s people, including many of Scottish origins, were pouring out of Ireland because of famine, a population explosion, lack of industry, high rents, and political reasons. That doesn’t mean the odd person didn’t arrive then but it would definitely have been against the trend. (Some big Irish estates were very keen on Scots gardeners and gamekeepers, and there were a few like that who came to Ireland then but the numbers were tiny). So I am wary of the information that Thomas A Hamilton moved from Biggar to Monaghan. What’s the evidence for that? My suspicion is that the Biggar family is probably different to the Monaghan one. But I may be wrong.
But, assuming you are confident that your John Beatty Hamilton was born in Tullycorbet in 1859 or thereabouts, I suggest you get someone to check the church records I have detailed in PRONI to see if his baptism can be confirmed. And also who his parents were. A good researcher will also look for siblings which gives extra lines of potential research.
I am impressed both with the information you have discovered, and with your willingness to do the research.
There may well have been more than one (possibly even many) "John Hamilton"s in Ireland in the 19th century. You have identified records of at least two of them – and one of is _definitely_ my great-grandfather.
John Beatty Hamilton was born December 17, 1859, in Edenaferkin (Tullycorbet), County Monaghan, Ireland. His mother was Jane Cuddy Beatty (her surname became his middle name – my grandparents and parents followed the same naming convention). And his wife was Roberta Cornelia Deyo (I have documentary evidence for this).
John Beatty Hamilton died only once – in Philadelphia, on October 1, 1936. This is according to his Death Certificate – which also, by the way, mentions that his father, Thomas A. Hamilton, was born in North Ireland (not Scotland, as I suggested earlier).
I have a tree on Ancestry which includes much more information about my Hamilton ancestry. It is a public tree, in order to assist others in their research. Feel free to have a look: "Hamilton Lincoln Family Tree".
Many thanks for pointing me in a direction for further research. I will follow up in the coming days.
Another thought… Do you have any guidance for my applying for Irish citizenship, based on my being descended from two Irish great-grandfathers? Thanks for your reply.
Elwyn,
So… two of my great-grandfathers were born in Ireland in the 19th century. I have learned more about John Beatty Hamilton (previous msg.) than about the other one, but here is what I have about him…
He, too, was a Hamilton (but no relation to the other great-grandfather). His name was Robert John Hamilton, and he was born on July 12, 1852, in County Sligo (possibly, County Donegal). At this time, I have no confirmed evidence about his parents.
According to the 1900 U.S. Census, he immigrated to the United States in 1871. He married Annie M. Donahoe in 1875; and became a U.S. citizen on May 26, 1891. He lived all his life in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and died there, on November 30, 1931.
My maternal grandparents each had the surname "Hamilton" – and were not related to each other. One of their three children grew up to be my mother, Marion Virginia Hamilton. My father was Spencer L. Lincoln, whose earliest American ancestor arrived at the Massachusetts Bay Company, in 1635. My own name – John Hamilton Lincoln – is an echo of my two Irish great-grandfathers… as well as of my Irish-American grandfather and grandmother… and my mother and father.
I've been trying to sort out the tangle for the past several years.
;-)
You mention the possibility of there being more than 1 John Hamilton in Ireland. That’s a certainty. In the 1901 Irish census, for example, there are 591 people of that exact name, including 7 in Co. Monaghan alone. I found the marriage between Thomas Hamilton & Jane Cuddy in Co. Tyrone in 1856:
Note that Jane was a widow. Her maiden name was Beatty and she had evidently married a Cuddy. Jane was from Mulnahunch in the parish of Killeeshil.
Here’s her first marriage to Alexander Cuddy in 1848, in the same Presbyterian church as the 1856 marriage:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…
There was still a Beatty farming in Mulnahunch in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Clananeese/Mullnahunch/1735424/
and in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Clonaneese/Mulnahunch/864477/
Robert in the 1901 census married Agnes Hewitt. His father was John, so he looks to be Jane Beatty’s brother.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…
I am not an expert on Irish Citizenship law but my general understanding is that you can only acquire citizenship if your parents or grandparents were born in Ireland. If the link is a generation beyond that, then you don’t qualify. But you should verify that with a competent Irish authority. Here’s a link to a Government website with information on citizenship:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/
I am impressed with what you have uncovered.
Thank you very much.
preslinc (aka John Hamilton Lincoln)
RE: Robert John Hamilton (1852-1931)
Elwyn… I have recently been in touch with an American who appears also to be a descendant of R J Hamilton (1852-1931). Today he wrote to me as follows:
"Robert Hamilton was my great-great-grandfather. I do not know much about him, except that he immigrated from Belfast, Ireland (?) to Philadelphia when he was 17. He married Annie Donahoe (not sure of spelling), and they had three children...Robert, James, and Edith. He made a living as a contractor, and built houses. Edith was my great-grandmother, and I knew her. I was born in 1961 when she was 75, and she lived to 1987 when she died at the age of 101. She married Albert Victor Lampe, a physician, and they lived in West Philadelphia. They had two children: Hamilton Lampe, my maternal grandfather, and Edith Lampe Knott. What Little I know about Robert Hamilton came from my granddad Hamilton Lampe."
So…! If I can learn anything from him about where this RJH came from, in Ireland, I will share it with you.
Best Wishes, John