McMahons related to McDonagh and Nestor Families in 19th Century Kilcornan

Hello Janice,

I found the baptism transcription as well as a copy of an original baptism record for a McMahon child that you hadn’t mentioned in your message to the Ireland Reaching Out message boards.

This baptism is for Catharina. Her baptism transcription was discovered at the Find My Past (FMP) website, and shows her baptism took place in the Kilcornan Catholic Parish on 14 December 1838. The transcription also shows the alternate names for the Kilcornan Catholic Parish were, “Cappah, Cilcornan, Stonehall and Cappagh, and Stonehall."

You can access the transcription at the following link after establishing a free account with FMP:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4741600

First names in the baptism transcription are in the Latin. You’ll notice however that Morgan McMahon’s first name is recorded as “Modestio,” rather than Morgan, though I couldn’t find any information showing that Modestio is the Latin equivalent for Morgan. Morgan is a Welsh name with origins from the word “mara,” referring to the sea.

I believe the root word in Latin for Modestio would be Modesté, meaning “Humble.” The upcoming link from the FMP website shows at least 25 19th century baptism records in County Limerick where the father’s first name is either Modesto, Modeste, and Modesti, etc., with three first names spelled Modestio: https://rebrand.ly/b1qq3r3

19th century Limerick marriage records show the name Modesti, Modestus, Modstum, Modestium, etc., recorded for 13 individuals, with O’Brian brides with the first name of Modesti. https://rebrand.ly/28mhejm

Modestio may have been the name the Kilcornan Parish Priest gave to Morgan in the baptism record because of Morgan’s humble demeanor, but that’s just a guess as I had never come across this name before in baptism or marriage records.

A copy of the original Kilcornan Catholic Parish baptism record for Catharina McMahon, from the National Library of Ireland, can be found at: https://rebrand.ly/7vlpvxm

The baptism record is the 2nd entry down from the top of the page, and shows that Catharina’s godparents are “Thoma” McMahon and “Brigida” O’Brien. The residence of Catharina and her parents is not recorded in the baptism record.

I then checked copies of the original Kilcornan Catholic Parish baptism records from the National Library of Ireland, for the other four children of Morgan McMahon and Margaret McDonagh that you had mentioned. I wanted to see if any baptisms had recorded where the family had been living when the baptisms took place.

The names of these children and dates of baptism from your records, are below. I’ve also included Catharina’s 1838 baptism record:

Catharina McMahon, 14 December 1838
Maria McMahon, 23 July 1840,
Patrick McMahon, 2 February 1844
Thomas McMahon, 13 November 1845 and
John McMahon, 31 May 1847
----

I found that none of the original Kilcornan baptism records from the National Library of Ireland had mentioned the residence of the children and their parents. The McMahon family did not necessarily live in Kilcornan.

This prompted me to look for Morgan McMahon in an Irish property tax record called Griffiths Valuation. Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for the Kilcornan Civil Parish and Catholic Parish was completed by the year 1850, three years after John McMahon was baptized.

Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

I didn’t find Morgan McMahon recorded in Griffiths Valuation. This could mean a few things. He may have been deceased by 1850, or if deceased, his wife Margaret was recorded in Griffiths Valuation, or the family had moved out of the Kilcornan Parish.

This prompted me to look for Margaret McMahon in Griffiths Valuation. I found that Margaret was indeed recorded in Griffiths Valuation, leasing property in the townland of Shanbally, Civil Parish of Kilcornan.

Also leasing property in Shabally were Michael Nester, John Nester, and Lawrence Nester. As you had mentioned, the “Nestors” were recorded as godparents in some the McMahon children baptisms.

A copy of the original Griffiths Valuation for Shanbally can be accessed at: https://rebrand.ly/p9r81ly

The entry for Margaret can be found at Map Reference 9a. Griffiths Valuation shows that Margaret leased a house, office, and over 36 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor named Sir. Vere De Vere, Bart. Bart stands for Baronet.

The land Margaret leased was valued at 27 Pounds. The house and offices were valued at 2 Pounds. The total valuation for Margaret’s lease in Shanbally was 29 Pounds. She would have paid a percentage of this value toward the tax.

You’ll also see that Michael and John Nester had leased their own houses, land and offices. Lawrence had leased a house and land.

Margaret’s land holdings included more acreage than the three Nesters combined.

An Office in Griffiths Valuation could refer to a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

The Map Reference number/letter combinations to the left of Margaret’s name and the names of the Nester occupiers, refer to location markers on a map of Shanbally that accompanied Griffiths Valuation. This map can be found at: https://rebrand.ly/q0qn498

Margaret’s lease at 9a can be found just above the second L in the name of the townland of Shanbally. The lower case letter a is above and to the left of the number 9. Just above the letter a you’ll see two oblong images in the shape of an upsidedown capital letter L. These refer to the location of Margaret’s house and office.

To the north of Margaret’s holding is Map Reference 6a. This is Michael Nester’s leasehold.

To the northeast of Margaret’s lease is Map Reference 7a, is the location of John Nester’s lease.

To the east of Margaret’s lease is that of Lawrence Nester at Map Reference 8a.

This Google Map shows that Shanbally is 3.4 miles southwest of Kilcornan: https://rebrand.ly/3znfcrl

I couldn’t obtain Google Street Views of Shanbally or Kilcornan, but here is a Google Satellite View of the Shanbally: https://rebrand.ly/nxljo6a

The following link takes you to a Google Satellite View of Kilcornan: https://rebrand.ly/au0gue9

THE TITHE APPLOTMENT BOOKS

I now wanted to see if any McMahon landholders were recorded in Shanbally in an Irish agricultural record known as the Tithe Applotment Books. In this record, farmers were required to pay a portion of their income toward the upkeep of the established Church of Ireland. Most farmers in Ireland were Roman Catholic and were not pleased that some of their hard-earned income went to a religious denomination they didn’t belong to.

The Tithe Applotment Books were compiled from 1823 to 1837. I found the townland of Shanbally in the Tithe Applotment Books, but the year of the tithe survey for the townland of Shanbally is not recorded at the National Archives of Ireland website. The date of the tithes is recorded as 1825 at the Ancestry.com site, however.

The Tithe Applotment Books, like the 1901 and 1911 Irish census enumerations are available to search for free at the National Archives of Ireland website.

NOTE: You may have trouble accessing records from the National Archives of Ireland, as many of the archive’s collections from their website, including the Tithe Applotment Books, were not responding as of 6 March, 2023. END OF NOTE.

There are six landholders recorded in Shanbally in the Tithe Applotment Books. These are Bridgeman V. Moloney, Thomas Kennedy, John Mann, Mott Connors, the Widow McMahon, and John Nestor.

The Tithe Applotment books shows that the Widow McMahon and John Nestor had individually leased 21 acres of land in Shanbally. Of this land, 15 acres were of 2nd quality acreage, and 6 acres of 3rd quality acreage. The quality of the land referred to how productive the soil was for growing crops like wheat and oats. 1st quality land was the best for growing crops, 4th quality the least productive.

The tithes for the Widow McMahon and John Nestor were 2 Pounds, 11 Pence, and 8 Shillings each. See the Tithe Applotment Book entry for the farmers of Shanbally at:
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab/004587458/004…

There is the possibility that the Widow McMahon was Morgan McMahon’s mother.

Moving ahead in time, I next wanted to see if I could find the death records for Morgan and Margaret McMahon. Births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations were recorded by the Irish government beginning in 1864, though non-Catholic and civil marriages were recorded by the government as early as1845.

Today, the irishgenealogy.ie website has birth, marriage, and death records online which you can access for free. Birth and marriage records are available from 1864, though non-Catholic marriages can be accessed from 1845. Deaths however, are not available at irishgenealogy.ie until 1871. Only death indexes are available from 1864 to 1870, but the indexes do not give a great deal of information about the deceased. Here is an example what a McMahon death index looks like:

SR District/Reg Area - Rathkeale
Death of MORTIMER MCMAHON in 1864

Name MORTIMER MCMAHON
Date of Death 1864
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Rathkeale
Deceased Age at Death 70
Returns Year 1864
Returns Quarter 4
Returns Volume No 20
Returns Page No 417

Source: irishgenealogy.ie
----

Irishgenealogy.ie plans to have death records available from 1864 sometime in the future.

I didn’t find a death index or a death record for a Morgan McMahon, but did locate the death record for Margaret. She died in Shanbally on 4 May 1894 at the age of 82 years. At the time of death she was a “Farmer’s Widow.” The only cause of death recorded is, “No Medical Attendant.”

It’s difficult to determine the name of the person who was present at the death, and who reported the death to the registrar because of the handwriting. His name looks like it could be John Meade. His residence was Shanbally.

The Registrar, T.H. Hannigan, recorded Margaret’s death in the Rathkeale, Limerick, Registration District on 22 May 1894. Margaret’s death is number 322 in the register. You can access the death record after following the prompts at: https://rebrand.ly/1c03pvb

THE 1901 CENSUS OF IRELAND

The 1901 census of Ireland does not show any McMahons living in Shanbally, County Limerick. The surnames found in Shanbally in the 1901 census are Meade, Sheehy, Nestor, White, Kennedy, and Bourke. You can see these names in the 1901 census, covering four census pages, at the National Archives of Ireland link: https://rebrand.ly/twin8rt

Nestor is one of the godparent surnames found in the baptism records of the McMahon children, as you had noted in your message to Ireland Reaching Out.

The National Archives of Ireland link below will take you to the 1901 census transcription for 50 year old widow, and head of household, Ellen Nestor, her 27 year old son Michael, 23 year old daughter Hannie, and 21 year old son Lawrence. Also in the household is a visitor, 70 year old James White. The census shows they are the “Residents of a house 3 in Shanbally (Kilcornan, Limerick):”
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Kilcornan/Shanbal…

Once the census downloads, make sure to tick on the box, “Show all information,” to view the full census page.

For a copy of the original 1901 census, go to: http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001014938/

The 1901 census was enumerated on Sunday evening, 31 March.

THE 1911 CENSUS

The 1911 census was taken on Sunday evening, 2 April.

By the 1911 census, Ellen Nestor is 71 years old. In comparing the 1901 census with the 1911 census, you’ll see that Ellen Nestor has aged 19 years, instead of 10 years. This is an example of how you cannot always trust the age of a person in the 1901 census, and by extension, the 1911 census.

The 1911 census shows that Ellen’s son, 38 year old Michael Nestor, is now the head of the household. Michael’s wife is 35 year old Emily. Also in the household is Michael’s 32 year old sister Hannie, and Michael’s nephew, 11 year old Vincent Phelan. The Nestor family are the “Residents of a house 4 in Shanbally (Kilcornan, Limerick).” See:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Kilcornan/Shanbal…

After you tick the box, “Show all information,” you’ll see that Ellen Nestor had been married for 23 years, and in that time period had 8 children, with 5 children still living.

For a copy of the original 1911 census go to: http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002788098/

Absent in the 1911 census are the number of years that Michael and Emily were married. In the 1901 census Michael was not married.

I looked for Michael and Emily’s marriage record at the irishgenealogy.ie website and found it. Michael and Emma McMahon were married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of Stonehall on 25 February 1911. At the time of marriage Michael and Emma were of “full age,” meaning 21 years old or older. Michael had been a bachelor and Emma a spinster. Michael’s occupation was “Farmer.” His residence at the time of marriage was “Shanbally.” His father is James Nestor, a “Farmer.”

Emma’s occupation was also “Farmer.” Her residence at the time of marriage was Cowpark. Her father is Michael McMahon, a “Farmer.”

The priest who married Michael and Emma was Patrick Condon, P.P. The initials P.P. stand for Parish Priest. The witnesses to the marriage were James Nestor and Katie Foley. The marriage was recorded on the 28th day of February 1911. See the marriage record at: https://rebrand.ly/glfm72x

According to information from genealogist and Ireland Reaching Out volunteer, Shane Wilson, Stonehall is the Catholic Parish located within the Civil Parish of Kilcornan. His R.C. Parish and Townland Database shows two Stonehall Chapels, one located in the Townland of Blossom Hill, near Boherboy, and the other Chapel in ruins, in Stonehall itself. See his website link for information and a map: https://rebrand.ly/a70x7dk

An Ordnance Survey Map from the 1897 to 1913 time period shows the R.C. Chapel in Stonehall “(in Ruins.)” See the map at: https://rebrand.ly/0maopz0

Another Ordnance Survey Map from the same time period shows the location of the Stonehall R.C. Chapel near Boherboy. This is the chapel where Michael Nestor and Emma McMahon were likely married in 1911: https://rebrand.ly/nj1b2pc

A Google Map shows that the Kilcornan Catholic Church in Stonehall is 2.9 miles northeast of Shanbally: https://rebrand.ly/8qddydv

The is a Google Street View of the Church: https://rebrand.ly/xdlxzbe

ELLEN NESTOR’S DEATH RECORD

Ellen Nestor died in “Shanballa” on 31 August 1912. At the time of death she was a 73 year old “Widow of a farmer.” The cause of death was “Cerebral Haemorrhage,” and “Diabetes Mellitus Three years.” The person who was present at Ellen’s death and who reported her death to the registrar was her son Michael, of Shanballa. The registrar, M.E. Cussen, recorded Ellen’s death in the Rathkeale Registration District on 1 November 1912. Ellen’s death is number 11 in the register: https://rebrand.ly/qaq9dyp

“Shanballa” may have been a regional pronunciation for Shanbally, but they are one and the same townland. Speaking of which, Shanbally is the English spelling of the townland. In Irish, the full name of the townland is An Seanbhaile Mór, which means, “The Old Large Town.”

I next went to Find a Grave’s, “Kilcornan Cemetery Memorials” page to see if I could find the graves of any of your McMahons who had died in the 19th century, and first quarter of the 20th century. I did not find any entries for your McMahons.

To search the Kilcornan Cemetery Memorials, go to the Find A Grave link at: https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2278409/memorial-search?page=1#sr-3…

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Find My Past
National Library of Ireland Catholic Parish Registers
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation Maps
Google Maps
Google Street Views
Google Satellite Views
National Archives of Ireland: Tithe Applotment Books
irishgenealogy.ie
National Archives of Ireland: 1901 and 1911 Census
Shane Wilson: R.C. Parish and Townland Database
GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Maps
Find A Grave: Kilcornan Cemetery Memorials

Am amazed at what you have discovered.  Thank you very much.  I did search the Griffiths Valuation website for Morgan McMahon, but of course did not get a result.  It did not occur to me that Morgan, or 'Modestio', might have passed away by then.  Margaret, his widow, continuing to farm begs the question, who worked the farm for her; she could not have managed it all herself, surely?  And if she did require extra labour, I wonder why two of her sons, Patrick, my great grandfather and his brother Thomas opted to move to mainland Britain and work in the City of London. 

May I enquire if you have any special interest in the Kilcornan/Shanbally district?  Or are you simply a volunteer, generous with your time and expertise, as the above message shows?

Janice Lingley

 

 

 

Hello Janice,

Many thanks for your reply.

Do you know what happened to Morgan and Margaret’s son John who was baptized on 31 May 1847? He was born during the Great Famine, and am wondering if he remained on the farm with his mother after his father died and his brothers left for England.

I looked for John’s civil registration death index and death record, as well as a civil registration record of his marriage for the years 1864 to 1901, but did not find a death or a marriage record for him. He may have died before civil registration began in 1864, or he too may have left his home to look for a better life off the farm.

I also looked for the civil marriage and death records for Catherine and her sister Maria McMahon from 1864 to 1901, but did not find these records either.

If Catherine, Maria, and John had married in the Kilcornan Catholic Church before 1864, their marriages would likely not have recorded the name of their father Morgan, the way that civil registration marriages record the names of the fathers of the bride and groom.

Some church marriage records do provide the residence of the bride and groom at the time marriage. I looked for the Kilcornan church marriages for Catherine, Maria, and John, but did not find any marriages showing that the McMahon partner had been living in Shanbally.

It's hard to tell how Margaret survived on the farm. She may have had help from men who were called “Labourers.” These were men who did not own or lease farms like those occupiers you see recorded in the Tithe Applotment Books and Griffiths Valuation. The Nestors and other neighbors may have also assisted Margaret in planting and harvesting her crops. Or, if Margaret’s daughters did marry and remain in the area, her daughters and sons-in-law may have helped her on the farm.

Then too, her sons Patrick and Thomas in London, who were tailors, may have sent part of their wages to their mother in Ireland so that she could operate the farm without going into debt. Finding work as tailors in a big city such as London, with millions of people, would have probably been more financially advantageous than earning a living as tailors in County Limerick. It’s also possible that Patrick and Thomas had wanted their mother to leave Ireland for London, but that she refused to leave the farm and her way of life in Shanbally.

That Margaret even survived the famine years and those years after the famine, is a testament to how resilient she was in the face of adversity, overcoming hunger, poverty, and disease, and dying at the age of 82 in 1894. Janice, you come from very strong Irish ancestors.

I don’t have a special interest in the Kilcornan/Shanbally district, though my Quinn, McNamara, and Meany ancestors came from the Townland of Ballybricken North, Civil Parish of Caherelly, County Limerick.

Thank you again for your reply. It is very much appreciated.

Dave

Hallo Dave

Thank you so much for your further email.  I have not yet fully assimilated all the information you have so kindly sent, since I have been preoccupied with other research, but should have more time this coming week to go through the detail.  However in the meantime I would say I am delighted to have acquired another Irish great aunt in the form of Catherina, my great grandfather Patrick's elder sister. 

Re the variant 'Modestio' for Morgan's first name on Catherina's baptismal record (which I located on FindMyPast, thanks to your link), plus the other variants you have recorded.  The form 'Modestus' seemed to me the most likely of them all, and according to the Oxford Names Companion it derives from a Late Latin personal name 'Modestus', and does indeed, as you suggest, have the sense of 'modest, moderate, restrained, humble'.  However there are several early saints with the name Modestus, and I wonder if Morgan's name was 'translated' by the baptising priest into one of them.  I found a St Modestus among a list of saints on the website of the Catholic Concern for Animals website / 'The Saints and Their Feast Days'.  He is associated with the care and healing of farm animals.  It's possible, I suppose, that Morgan may have been named after this saint.  He may himself have been especially skilled in the care of farm beasts.

I couldn't find a death date for Morgan either.  I would advise, however, that he and Margaret together with their 14 year old son Patrick appear just once on the UK census for 1861, in London, Morgan working as a labourer and Margaret as a dressmaker.  Then they disappear from the UK census altogether, leaving Patrick to appear as a labourer on the 1871 census, living by himself in lodgings.  Did his parents take him to London, see him settled there and then return to Ireland?  Margaret certainly must have done.  By the time of the 1881 census Patrick is married to Catherine McQuin and working as a tailor together with his brother Thomas and his wife.  All very fortuitous otherwise I wouldn't be here!

Re the Sir Vere de Vere who appears as Immediate Lessor on Widow Margaret's Griffith's Valuation, I wonder who the actual landowner was; a senior member of the de Veres?  They lived nearby at Curraghchase.  I did a search of a 19th century survey by John Bateman of the Great Landowners of Gt Britain and Ireland (available online at the Hathi Trust website) but the publication date, 1883, is rather late in the century, and landowners are only listed by county, and not by townland or parish.

Yes, Kilcornan may have been affected by the Great Famine, and the McMahons and their extended families must have been very brave and resilient to have got through it.  Also there was an earlier famine in 1822, in Co Leitrim mainly (Gerard Mac Atasney's 2010 book The Other Famine), but apparently Co Limerick was also affected.  I wonder if the Kilcornan / Shanbally villagers would have had access to common land of any sort, for fuel and adventitious food.   

Very best wishes

Janice

 

 

Hi Janice,

In the 1861 England census for London, was Morgan McMahon's first name recorded as Mortimer? If not can you attach a copy of the census for the McMahon family?

thank you,

Dave

Hallo Dave

Yes, Morgan's name does appear as Mortimer in the 1861 census. 

Also, re my comment in my previous email, concerning Patrick McMahon appearing on the 1871 census without his parents and living in lodgings.  This was incorrect, since he was married by this time to Catherine McQuin, the ceremony having taken place on 23 Oct 1870.  Apologies for this; I did not intend to mislead you.  The marriage certificate states Patrick's father to be James McMahon, perhaps a foster parent, in the absence of Mortimer and Margaret?

Janice

 

Hello Janice,

Many thanks for your reply. I don’t think you’ve mislead me at all and there’s no need to apologize. I was just curious about Morgan becoming Mortimer McMahon.

Indications are that James McMahon would have been Patrick’s father and not a foster parent. You had mentioned that James was recorded as Patrick’s father in the 1870 marriage record. But, the marriage record also precludes Morgan as being Patrick’s father.

On another note, I located Mortimer McMahon, his wife Margaret, and their 10 year old daughter in the 1871 census. The McMahons were still living in Marylebone, London.

In the 1861 census, Mortimer, Catherine and Patrick were living at 13 Paul Street, Marylebone. In the 1871 census they were living at 10 Virgil Place. The 1871 census shows Mortimer was a 50 year old Labourer born in Ireland. His 45 year old wife Margaret was also born in Ireland, but their 10 year old daughter was born in “Marylebone, Middlesex.” Mortimer, Margaret, and Margaret are the last three people recorded in the 1871 census page at: https://rebrand.ly/nq271wi

I looked for Margaret Jr’s birth index at the FreeBMD website for the year 1861 as well as 1862, but didn’t find it. You can access the FreeBMD website at: https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

The 1861 England census was taken on 7 April 1861, which means that Margaret, if her age is correct in the 1871 census, would have been born after 7 April 1861. She could have been an infant recorded in another household in 1861, perhaps a relative. Or it’s possible that her parents didn’t report her birth to the registrar after Margaret was born.

There is also the possibility that she was not born in 1861 or 1862.

I looked for Margaret in another household in London and in Middlesex, England but did not find her in the 1861 census.

By 1881 Mortimer and Margaret McMahon were living at an address of 6 Homer Row, Marylebone, London. Mortimer was a 59 year old “General Labourer” born in Limerick, Ireland. Margaret was 54 years old and also born in Limerick, Ireland. Their daughter Margaret was not in the household with them.

Mortimer and Margaret are toward the bottom of the census page at Schedule No. 285: https://rebrand.ly/nxp2qgx

In the 1861 census the McMahons were living in Paul Street. In 1871 the McMahons were living in Virgil Place. In 1881 in Homer Row. Because of the 1871 and 1881 locations, named after classical Greek and Roman authors who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the Aeneid, I suspected these two streets were near one another in Marylebone, London.

A Google Map shows they are, and are 2/10th of a mile from one another: https://rebrand.ly/88p58r5

Here is a Google Street View of Virgil Place, showing it is an alleyway. It is located off Seymour Place: https://rebrand.ly/t2lvvgo

This is a Google Street View of Homer Row: https://rebrand.ly/8xcvatd

I didn’t find Paul Street, Marylebone, on a Google Map of London.

Next, I wanted to see if perhaps Mortimer and Margaret’s daughter Margaret was recorded in the 1881 census. If she were married however, I wouldn’t be able to find her under her married name. But if she was recorded somewhere in Marylebone in the 1881 census, I figured there was a good chance she would be the daughter of Mortimer and Margaret.

I found a 20 year old Margaret McMahon employed as a “Servant” of Lodgings House Keeper, Hannah Condon at an address of 22 Manchester Street, Marylebone. Margaret’s birthplace is “Mary Le Bone, Middlesex.” She is also unmarried. The household of Hannah Condon is at the top of the census beginning at Schedule 9 of 22 Manchester Street: https://rebrand.ly/rhu6et5

I found on a Google Map that Homer Row and Virgil Place are a mile west of Manchester Street in Marylebone, London: https://rebrand.ly/gwqs5l0

The following link will take you to a Google Street View of Manchester Street: https://rebrand.ly/b0ddsl3

Janice, in your first message to Ireland Reaching Out on 3 March 2023, you had mentioned that your great grandfather Patrick had siblings Maria (23 July 1840), Thomas (13 November 1845, and John (May 1847).

Are you sure that Mortimer and Catherine McHahon in the 1861 census, and now the 1871, and 1881 census returns for London, were your Patrick’s father and mother, especially in light of Patrick’s 1870 marriage record, where his father is recorded as James?

Based on the information in your replies I now wanted to access the 1871 England census for your great grandparents Patrick and Catherine (McQuin) McMahon. I looked for them at Ancestry.com, but found another Patrick McMahon, age 30, who was married to a Bridget, also age 30. Patrick was born in Ireland. Their address was Portman Square St Thomas, Marylebone, London.

Patrick and Bridget have two children, 5 year old Mary and 1 year old Patrick. See the 1871 census index below:

1871 England Census

Name: Patrick Mc Mahon
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: 1841
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: Portman Square St Thomas
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Rectory
ED, institution, or vessel: 11

Household schedule number: 314
Piece: 163
Folio: 67
Page number: 65

Household Members (Name), Age, Relationship

Patrick Mc Mahon, 30, Head
Bridget Mc Mahon, 30, Wife
Mary Mc Mahon, 5, Daughter
Patrick Mc Mahon, 1, Son

Source Information
Ancestry.com. 1871 England Census [database on-line]. Lehi, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2005.
----

A Google Map shows that Portman Square is southeast of Homer Row and Virgil Place, and just south of Manchester Street in Marylebone, London: https://rebrand.ly/nc1h6y9

I found the 1871 census for Patrick and Bridget McMahon by mistake, but looking at their residence in 1871, I’d say this Patrick McMahon is more likely the son of Mortimer and Catherine, than your great grandfather Patrick.

I did a more thorough search for your Patrick and Catherine McMahon in the 1871 census, recalling you had mentioned they lived in Whitechapel. I found them in the census. Their address was 28 Mansell Street, as you know.

This Google Map shows that Mansell Street in Whitechapel, is almost 5 miles east of Virgil Row and Homer Place in Marylebone: https://rebrand.ly/2gullwb

Going back to Mortimer and Catherine McMahon, I found what I believe are their individual death indexes at the FreeBMD website.

The index for Mortimer below shows his death was recorded in the Marylebone Registration District in the March quarter of 1891. He was 74 years old at the time of death:

Death March Quarter 1891
Mortimer McMahon
Age at Death: 74
Registration District: Marylebone
Volume 1a
Page: 512

Source: FreeBMD
----

Mortimer’s full death record can be found in Volume 1a, Page 512 of the General Register Office (GRO) death register.

Below is the index transcription for Margaret McMahon, age 68, whose death was recorded in the Marylebone Registration District in the September quarter of 1894. Her full death record is in Volume 1a, Page 330 of the GRO death registers:

Death September Quarter 1894
Margaret McMahon
Age at Death: 68
Registration District: Marylebone
Volume 1a
Page: 330

Source: FreeBMD
----

If you want to order the death records from the GRO I can send you directions on how to do so in a follow-up reply.

Janice, I’m not sure what to make of the three different names for Patrick’s father, Morgan, Mortimer, and James. That doesn’t include the name Modestio for Morgan in Catherine McMahon’s Kilcornan 1838 baptism record.

Indications are that Mortimer McMahon in Marylebone, London, was not your Patrick’s father. But this still leaves two conflicting records, as Patrick’s 1844 baptism shows that his father was Morgan, but his 1870 marriage shows his father was James.

If you have a copy of the original 1870 marriage record for Patrick and Catherine McQuin, can you send it as an attachment in a follow-up reply?

Again, I never thought you were misleading me, so please don’t concern yourself about that.

Thanks Janice,

Dave

Hallo Dave

Here is the scan of the marriage certificate of Patrick McMahon and Catherine McQuin, as requested, showing James McMahon as Patrick's father.  I am also attaching a scan of my grandmother Margaret Lingley nee McMahon's marriage certificate, which also cites James as the parent.  Elizabeth McMahon, witness to the marriage, could have been my grandmother's sister, if the census returns I identified are correct.  

I am also attaching a file summarising the census searches I did of McMahons in London.  My grandmother was definitely a Catholic (she took me to Mass with her on one occasion when I was a young child), and I was told by my paternal uncle that her father worked as a tailor in the City of London.  There has always been a tradition in the family, albeit rather vague, that my grandmother's family came originally from Limerick.  

Best wishes

Janice 

 

 

Thank you for sending those attachments Janice. I would like to take some time to go over them.

I've been meaning to ask, what records in England did you find showing that Patrick McMahon's father was Morgan and that his mother was Margaret McDonagh? Or, how did you arrive at the conclusion that his parents were Morgan McMahon and Margaret McDonogh?

Thank you Janice,

Dave

Dave,

I think the exchange of messages is becoming a little confused, and it would be helpful if we could clarify matters via email, rather than by posting any further messages.  This is how I liaised with the previous Ireland XO volunteer before anything was posted.  Please contact your volunteers hub for my email address.  I see no point in continuing with the current communications since you apparently now wish to question and undermine the research done by the previous Ireland XO volunteer, which is rather disconcerting.

Janice Lingley

 

 

I

Is John Naish contactable through Ireland XO?

Janice