McLorinan and McDowell

Elwyn,

Thanks for your response.  I haven't so far been able to find out much about my great-grandfather Henry McLorinan McDowell. All I know about his father (from Henry"s marriage certificate, which was in the Agnes Street Methodist Chapel in Belfast in 1871) is that his name was John, and he was a sewed muslin agent. I'm grateful for your interest.

John

 

Elwyn,

A bit of progress.  I stumbled on a death certificate for a Henry McLorinan who died in Antrim (I assume the town) in 1875, aged 86, in the presence of ?n McDowell (the copy has a smudge).  I hope that's John McDowell, and I hope it's Henry's son-in-law, father of my great-grandfather Henry McLorinan McDowell, who on this hypothesis will have been named, according to the custom you confirmed, after his mother's father.  On Family Search, in the infuriating way that happens there, the death certificate was attached as a "memory" to a Henry McLorinan said to have been born in Carmavey, Killead, Co Antrim; that's how I stumbled on it. I sent an email to Killead Presbyterian Church, and to my admiring astonishment had an immediate response from the minister, bless him, transcribing several McLorinan records. Evidently the Henry McLorinan who was my candidate for being an ancestor of mine was dead by the time his son, also Henry, was married in 1845, so he wasn't the Henry who died in the presence of, I hope, my great-great-grandfather in 1875. I suppose eliminating possibilities is progress too. And the Killead McLorinans confirm that not all McLorinans were Catholic.

Next I have to work on finding church records in Antrim. I'm in the US, and not in touch with any cousins in NI, of whom I'm sure there are some, so I'm stuck with what's online and email inquiries.

John

 

Thanks again, Elwyn.

It's John McDowell, my great-great-grandfather, who is described (on the marriage certificate of his son Henry McLorinan) as a sewed muslin agent. I haven't found any other documentation for him beyond that marriage certificate: no death certificate, no census record (I assume he was dead by 1901), no will.

A wife for Henry McLorinan of Castle Street Antrim would be of interest to me; if he is father-in-law to "my" John McDowell she would be a great-great-great-grandmother of mine. But my most immediate concern is a maiden name for John McDowell's wife, who I hope was a McLorinan, a daughter of the Henry who died in Antrim in 1875.

I think my communication from the minister of Killead Presbyterian Church eliminates the Carmavy McLorinans from any identification with the Henry who died in Antrim in 1875. There seem to have been three called Henry. The first was said on Family Search to have been born about 1795, with no documentation beyond the fact that someone (no telling who) had attached that death certificate to him. But according to the minister he was dead by the time of the marriage of his son, also Henry, to Margaret Adgey in 1845. The third was born to the second Henry and his wife Margaret in 1846. None of the three fits the dates of the Henry who died in 1875, the one who I hope was an ancestor of mine.

John

 

 

Elwyn,

A bit more progress. John McDowell of High Street Antrim, rate collector, widower, died 29 November 1886, aged 69. (A bit hard to find on irishgenealogy.ie because he was indexed as John MDowell.) Elizabeth McDowell of High Street Antrim, wife of John McDowell a tax collector, died 23 September 1884, aged 72. This is plausibly the same John McDowell of High Street who witnessed the death of Henry McLorinan on Castle Street on 12 January 1875, and his wife, perhaps born Elizabeth McLorinan. A problem about identifying this John McDowell with the father of Henry McLorinan McDowell is his profession, which was sewed muslin agent in 1871. Perhaps the decline in the sewed muslin trade had finally become too much for him to sustain that employment? And we know H. McL. McD. was born in Co Antrim, possibly Antrim town.

The Belfast Newsletter for 30 November 1886 has a death notice for John McDowell of 45 High Street Antrim (the building seems to be still there, per Google Street View), which says his remains are to be removed for interment the next day at the Friends' Burying-ground, Moylena. I've tried to find the burying-ground on the internet, so far in vain, though I found that there was/is a village (?) called Moylena, site of a beetling mill; the name seems to be preserved in the name of Moylena Road, which is the address of the Antrim town cemetery.

I've posted on another board asking if anyone knows anything about the burial ground.

John

Thanks again, Elwyn.

My grandfather wrote the name with an apostrophe. My father wrote the "c", but raised above the line. But I was surprised that irishgenealogy.ie didn't give results for the variants when I searched McDowell; someone else alerted me to the death certificate for John McDowell of High Street Antrim.

I think I have "found" the graveyard (so far as that makes sense from several thousand miles away) since my previous post. In a different context I came across a reference to the Seneschal of the Manor of Moylinny, and I thought that looked plausibly like a different version of the Irish name. It turns out that Moylinny is a townland in Antrim town; surely likely the same as Moylena where the beetling mill was. And a search for a Quaker graveyard in Moylinny turned up a result on genuki.org.uk: 

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/ANT/Antrim/QuakersGraveyardCemetery

It shows the site S of Belfast Road, close to Nursery Park.

I found a couple of photos (from 2007) on flickr.com:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21067190@N00/775794563/in/photostream/

One shows a handsome stone gateway with an iron gate, through which some gravestones are visible. The other is taken from close to the gate, showing gravestones and an area enclosed with low iron fencing.

I also found a document (from 2000) about the heritage of Antrim town, in which the gateway and walling of a Quaker graveyard at Belfast Road, Antrim appear on a list of listed buildings:

https://www.nienvironmentlink.org/cmsfiles/Antrim-Heritage-Audit-v2.pdf

From what you say, the gravestones visible in the pictures are likely to be of non-Quakers. But I don't know that John was a Quaker; the only evidence of that, so far, is the death notice in the Belfast Newsletter. I've contacted the cemeteries department of the government of Antrim and Newtownabbey asking if they maintain that graveyard, and suggesting that it might be a good idea to have some organization like Find a Grave record the gravestones. And I will contact the Provincial HQ in Lisburn as you suggest.

John

P.S. I copied and pasted the web addresses, expecting them to look like links, and they don't. I hope they work for you. (I'm assuming that as a resident in the area unfamiliar with this graveyard you will be interested in it independently of helping me.)

I mistyped; the heritage document is from 2020.

I see that the addresses appear as links once what I wrote is posted. But the Flickr one doesn't all appear. I will try to fix it. Or perhaps you can find the pics by googling Quaker graveyard Antrim.

John

Elwyn,

Thanks again. The photo of the gate that I had seen has what looks like the bottom of a plaque, but not the plaque itself. It's interesting how old the graveyard is; I have the impression that the heritage audit dates the structures (gate and wall) more recently (1844? I haven't checked). But it makes sense that the graveyard itself would date back to when there were first Quakers in Antrim.

I emailed the town council back when I last posted here, and I had a response from the cemeteries department saying they don't know who is in charge of the graveyard (which they knew about); they recommended that I contact a local Quaker meeting house, and suggested I consult quakers-in-ireland.ie to find one. You had said that there hasn't been a Quaker meeting in Antrim for quite a while. It didn't sound very likely that the council has a key, or even knows who might have one.

Some of the genealogy websites give quakers-in-ireland.org as the website of the Religious Society of Friends in Ulster. But that site has been down every time I've tried for a couple of weeks. I've finally given it up, and yesterday I sent off a query to the Archives Committee, at their Lisburn address, by mail. We'll see if anything comes of it. If they aren't keeping up their website, they probably aren't picking up or answering their mail.

I really appreciate your continued interest.

John

Elwyn,

My contact at the cemeteries department in the town government confirms that they don't have a key, and they don't know who does. She says that burial records for the graveyard are on microfilm at PRONI, but that isn't any help to me; I will go on hoping for a response from Lisburn.

A different matter: The Belfast and Province of Ulster Directory 1870 has, under Traders &c in Antrim (town), J. M'Dowell, sewed muslin agent, on Main Street; and Miss M'Dowell, stationer, also on Main Street. In later directories he no longer figures (perhaps because he is no longer a sewed muslin agent, and tax/rate collector doesn't count as a trade?); she goes on figuring as stationer, and later stationer and newsagent, but on High Street. I first thought her store must have moved, and if he's the same person who lived on High Street by 1875 he must have moved also, but then I saw that there are no High Street addresses in the 1870 directory, and lots in the later directories, so I'm thinking the street name was changed; does that sound right? I'm wondering if the stationer is Mary McDowell, daughter, who was present at his death in 1888. In one of the series of directories there is Miss M'Dowell, stationer, and also a Miss J. M'Dowell, sewing agent, also on High Street: another daughter? Sorry, you don't need all this information, but I'm wondering if you know about the change of street name.

John

Elwyn,

Thanks again.

I emailed that address at the Lisburn meeting a while back, asking if they knew how I could contact the Archives, and I haven't had any response. I hope it doesn't mean that the whole operation, local meeting, Archives, and all, has gone completely dormant in the pandemic.

About Main Street, I was hoping it was what's now, and already by 1875, called High Street. There are a lot of businesses on Main Street in the 1870 directory, and I don't think Miss M'Dowell's stationery store is the only one that reappears on High Street in the later one.

John

Thanks again.

That's too bad about the key. I picture an elderly keyholder (maybe a member of the Reford family?) dying (some time ago, since the graveyard hasn't been maintained for a while), and none of the survivors knowing what that key was for.

For what it's worth, on a closer look I don't think the inscription of which the bottom, not the words, can be seen on the photograph from 2007 is the same one that figures in your photograph; the bottom of the plaque looks different (older in the 2007 photograph). I wonder if the Reford family decided to assert that it's their burial place, and maybe to take charge of it, comparatively recently.

I will wait, without much hope, for a response from Lisburn. Meanwhile, thank you for your efforts.

John

 

Elwyn,

The email I've copied and attached (I hope) just reached me out of the blue. I think the sender must have found my post, on a different message board here, about the burial ground. If his information is 20 years old, maybe it's no longer current, but it may be worth trying the lady he names as the key holder.

I wondered whether Thomas Parker McDowell might be related to the John McDowell who was buried there in 1886. I've done a brief dive into what's available on the free LDS site, and followed up by finding a marriage certificate from irishgenealogy.ie, and it looks quite plausible, so far, that he was another son of that John McDowell; his father is so named, and described as a commission agent, on the marriage certificate. Intriguing.

John

Elwyn,

On reflection I think Ross Chapman must have been responding to an email I sent to quakers-in-ireland.ie.

I will attach an informative follow-up from him. You had said that non-Quakers might be buried in a Quaker graveyard, and it seems that John's burial wasn't a Quaker burial (though maybe the family had been Quaker at some previous time). Obviously this puts paid to my hope of getting a marriage record from the Archive at Lisburn.

About Thomas Parker McDowell: Henry McLorinan McDowell's daughter Elizabeth married Thomas Henry Parker, who was a son of Alexander Mackey (or Mackay) Parker, both born in Antrim. Alexander Mackey Parker was a witness at the marriage of Henry McLorinan McDowell. I can't find a father for Alexander; I'm guessing it may have been Thomas Parker, and that the Thomas Parker family were friends of the John McDowell family, perhaps through the Methodist church. Perhaps John named a son Thomas Parker McDowell in honour of a family friend, as some time back you suggested was possible as an explanation of the name of Henry McLorinan McDowell. (Or perhaps John's wife Elizabeth was a Parker, not a McLorinan. This sets the cat amongst the pigeons!)

Elwyn,

Thanks again. I hadn't found (or even looked for) Thomas Parker McDowell's will. There is an entry for him and his family on the 1901 census, but it doesn't come up on the LDS database because his name has been mistranscribed as Thomas Parkin McDonell. It always seemed implausible that Henry McLorinan McD and Mary McD, who witnessed John McD's death, were John McD's only offspring, and it's good to have a candidate for another. I've also been wondering about the John McD, director, who figures as an executor/beneficiary on Henry McLorinan McD's will probate in 1916. (The English version has Joseph McD, director, but I think that must be a mistranscription.) By that time my grandfather John McD, Henry's son, had been settled in South Africa at least since 1906, so he seems unlikely as a director of Henry's company. But maybe a sibling? On the death notice in the Belfast Newsletter John is John McDowell Sen, and I wondered who John McDowell Jun is; maybe my grandfather, but at the time of John Sr's death he was only a little boy, and it seems a bit grand to call him John Jr.

I don't think Ross meant that no McDowells have been buried at Moylinny since 1871. I think the point was that there have been no Quaker burials there since then. Which implies that John McD wasn't a Quaker — though he and his ?son Thomas Parker McD had burial rights there. I asked Ross if that meant that McDowells had been Quakers previously, and he said there aren't any McDowells in the records of the Antrim meeting; it might be only that a McDowell had married a daughter of a Quaker. (I will attach our latest exchange.) I've now asked him if the records of the Antrim meeting include McLorinans (which seems unlikely somehow), or Parkers.

If Mrs Parker turns out to be no more, we'll have to see what Ross suggests. Having had my hopes raised, I would be tempted to suggest getting a bolt cutter and removing the padlock, and then replacing it with a new one, with the key to be kept by the council if they will accept it. (I would happily pay for that.)

As always, I really value your interest and your help.

I meant Mrs. Thompson!

I meant Mrs. Thompson!

Elwyn,

This is probably TMI. I was struck by the name Samuel Johnston McDowell on the will probate abstract you found for Thomas Parker McDowell, and I recalled that in my search for a candidate for the John McDowell on the will probate for Henry McLorinan McDowell, not believing it could be my grandfather in South Africa, I had found a death certificate for a John McDowell who died in Belfast on 26 June 1921, aged 62, with the death witnessed by S. J. McDowell, son. There's a marriage certificate that might fit him: John McDowell Junior married Isabella Vance Johnson on 5 June 1886 at 43 High Street Antrim under Methodist auspices; his father is John McDowell, agent (perhaps the person whose burial, later that year, we are investigating, named as John McDowell Senior in the Belfast Newsletter), hers is Samuel Johnson, grocer. This John McDowell would have been born in 1859 or perhaps 1858 — late in the childbearing years of Elizabeth McDowell (born 1812), but not inconceivable. I wonder if S. J. McDowell is Samuel Johnson McDowell, named after his maternal grandfather, and "Johnson" has been mistranscribed as "Johnston" on the will probate.

I haven't heard back from Ross yet; I'll keep you posted.

John

Elwyn,

The will probate of John McDowell Junior in 1921 locks a lot into place. Probate is granted to:

1. Thomas McDowell of 2 The Lindens, Clintonville Road, linen merchant, nephew. This is a son of Henry McLorinan McDowell. It proves that John McD Junior is indeed a brother of Henry McLorinan McD; they are both sons of John McDowell Senior.

2. Elizabeth McLorinan Napier, married woman, daughter. I think this must be the daughter called Lily or Lillie on the censuses. It's surely near enough certain that John McD Junior named her in honour of his mother, Elizabeth McDowell — we can now confidently say née McLorinan. So John's son Henry McLorinan McD (who is certainly my great-grandfather) can be, as I wanted, named in honour of John's father-in-law.

3. Samuel Johnson McDowell, Malone Road, secretary, son. Surely this is the S. J. McDowell, son, who witnessed the death of his father John McD Junior. Probably the same as Samuel Johnston McDowell on the probate document for Thomas Parker McDowell. The name seems to waver between Johnson and Johnston. Plausibly named in honour of his mother's father, Samuel Johnson or Johnston, grocer (of 43 High Street Antrim).

I may not need the church records!

Elwyn,

I can't thank you enough for all this! I am immensely grateful for all the trouble you have taken.

Mary McDowell, daughter, is on the death certificate of John McDowell. I'm thinking Jane McL. McDowell is Miss J. M'Dowell, sewing agent, who is mentioned on High Street Antrim, along with Miss M'Dowell, stationer (perhaps Mary?), on one of the Belfast and Ulster Province directories. I think with all the evidence we now have it's fair to assume Jane McL. is Jane McLorinan, and it's overdetermined that her mother is Elizabeth McLorinan, daughter of Henry McLorinan who died in the presence of John McDowell on Castle Street in 1875. Henry McLorinan McD's eldest daughter is Mary Jane, and perhaps that's a nod to his sisters. It's wonderful how everything is falling into place.

I haven't been expecting other McDowell graves there, but who knows? Thomas Parker McD, whose probate you found, died in 1929 (in Antrim town, where as you told me he had been living in what's now your vet's building). I know that Henry McLorinan McD (my great-grandfather) was buried in Belfast.

Ross Chapman mentioned two Vance men along with Thomas Parker McD as members of the committee that took over the running of the graveyard in 1893. I haven't investigated the ancestry of Isabella Vance Johnson/Johnston; you're probably right that she was connected with the family on the gravestone. Maybe her mother was a Vance. If, as Ross said, there were no Quaker burials there after 1881, the people in the Vance grave you photographed are no longer Quakers.

Elwyn,

It's been a while! I've made some small discoveries since we were last in contact, but nothing to compare with the definitive answer to the question I first posted here, reached with your indispensable help. I don't think I could get further back with McDowells and McLorinans without church records.

Something I should have asked you long ago: is it OK with you if I post your photos of John McDowell's grave and the graveyard entry on my tree on Ancestry.com, and on the communal tree on FamilySearch? To credit you, I would need to have so to speak official knowledge of your last name, evidently not used on Ireland Reaching Out — though I think I know it because you, or someone I take to be you, are a presence on other genealogical sites.

John

 

Thanks again, Elwyn.

I thought you were probably the Elwyn Soutter whose posts I saw sometimes in my occasional browsing on rootschat. I had supposed that the absence of surnames on Ireland Reaching out was website policy, but now that you have confirmed my surmise I see that I could have confirmed it by finding your profile, under your full name, on Ireland Reaching Out itself.

The profile looks very like the kind of thing I have occasionally seen posted by professional genealogists looking for customers. That makes me even more gratefully amazed at your having done, just as a site volunteer, all that you did in the line of inquiry that culminated in locating and photographing my gggf's grave. Thanks for all of it.

John 

Elwyn,

I thought you might be interested, after all this time, in a snippet of information about Firmount, the house in which my great-great-uncle Thomas Parker McDowell died, which is now the site of the veterinary practice where you said you take your pets.  Thomas worked for James Chaine at his linen works in Muckamore.  When Chaine died in 1885, he willed to Thomas a plot of land and £1,000, and Thomas used the money to build the house on the land Chaine had left him.

Thomas's brother John junior also worked for Chaine; he was Chaine's secretary, and for a while after Chaine's death he was secretary to the estate.  I think he was involved with the building of Larne Harbour and the setting up of the ferry between there and Stranraer.  But he didn't get a legacy.

I now know that Thomas was named after the first husband of his mother Elizabeth née McLorinan, the father of Alexander Mackey Parker, who turns out to have been a half-brother of his.

John