McGreal/McGrail mystery

Hello Kyle,

I think we must have at some point crossed paths. – Lisacul Rosie possibly. Have you actually obtained the marriage cert from Scotlandspeople with the details you have identified.

Hi Kyle,

According to the Scottish Census he was born 1860/1, He married Elizabeth McMillien. From my records he was born in a townland near Swinford, Co. Mayo.

Brendan

Hey, thanks for the replies. I am not sure who Lisacul Rosie is, but I do have the marriage certificate. He married in 1883 at St. Mirins in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland to Elizabeth McMillan, also known as Elizabeth Rush (her name is a mystery in itself). Brendan, what record shows the Swineford location? Could you send that info to me? I have never seen anything that definitely linked the McGreals to County Mayo, but that is one of the three counties orally linked to the family tree. I have some Scotland census records. I just have no Irish records for him. The passenger list record for his arrival in New York in 1914 lists his birthplace as Galway. His age has been different depending on the record, which is normal. I will be very interested to see that info. Thanks guys!

I have the 1891 census for the correct family in Paisley, and it lists John's birth year as 1865 and his birthplace as simply Ireland...

Hello Kyle,

As Lisacul Rosie we corresponded back in April 2014 and identified the death cert you have linked with details of the extended family from memorials on FAG. I would appreciate it if you would post the marriage cert with the Rush/McMillen details to see if you may have missed something , which was the point where the correspondence ended.

Have you reached out to the son of the late John McGrail who died in 2013 in Ohio to obtain a possible DNA sample for the family male line which may assist in location .

Interested also in the link to the Swineford McGreal people (any NLI image ?)

Well hello again, Lisacul Rosie! Unfortunately, my uncle Keith, the son you referenced, died in August of 2014 due to complications from a bone marrow transplant for leukemia. My mother has had a DNA sample done,  but there are no men (other than me) who have done a DNA test. I will likely encourage my 1st cousins once removed to try and get a DNA test. I am attaching two files from the marraige, the church record and the statutory marriage record.

Hello Kyle,

Sorry to hear about Keith. There are a lot more possibilities through the Skeen marriage line you could make. Looking at the census returns for Scotland there are two children I had overlooked – James and a John who appears to have died in infancy.Naming a son James and not after the grandfather John seems at a variant with normal naming patterns.

Looking at the Swineford area, there was a John Francis baptised 1862 which having accepted the rootsireland transcription of a mother McGuire it might draw some possible connection to the witnesses in the marriage. However the actual registers seem to show the surname to be Geary. See link (click download and zoom in with your own viewer. Surprisingly that unusual name Agnes appears again.

Doesn’t follow with the O’Donnell mother though.

http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000632337_051

Yeah, I've considered the child-naming angle before, but there could easily have been another child that was born and died between census dates. There is no way to tell if James is the first child. I do not think the Swineford NLI register is the correct link. The best lead I have is from the Aughaval parish in County Mayo. In April of 1862 a John MacGreal was born to Thomas MacGreal and Mary O'Donnell. The record says he is illegitimate. This date would line up with the possible range of birth years I have. The mother also matches. The only question I had is... every later record consistently lists John's father as John McGreal. SO, in the record I have (which I will attach), would the parish list the biological father of an illegitimate son if they aren't married? The frustrating thing is that I don't even know when John's parents were married. This record could show a John born between two unmarried people, born between one married and one unmarried, or born between two married people who were not wed together. Perhaps the Thomas MacGreal sired John and left, and later a John McGreal stepped in to marry Mary O'Donnell. I don't know. I will attach the file. I also need to know what it means at the bottom of the record where it says: "Child is illegitimate 2 cards." What is "two cards"?

Hello Kyle,

There may be method in the madness in this case. Below are the possible census matches but the ages are possibly a few years too young if you rely on ages. Nb one son !!! There are two baptisms the Thomas/O’Donnell and a Thomas/Heraghty in April and May 1862 respectively. A common name that appears in both is Heraghty be it the spouse in one and a witness in the other, and what appears to be O’Donnell as a witness in the May 1862 baptism. What arrangement was made will be pure speculation. I am unsure as to what 2 cards refers to other than the possible two Johns being born to a Thomas McGreal as fathers.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Westport_Urban/Altamont_Street/1607477/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Westport__Urban/Altamont_Street/749210/

I wouldn’t pay much attention to the Baptisms, July 1873 to Aug. 1873 and Baptisms, Sep. 1873 to Oct. 1873 as the book year clearly shows 1862

April 1862 - http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000631995_006

May 1862 - http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000631995_008

Griffith's Valuation Record Information
TenantFamily Name 1MCGRAIL

Forename 1JOHN

Landlord

Family Name 2HARKAN

Forename 2PETER

LocationCountyMAYO

BaronyGALLEN

UnionSWINEFORD

ParishKILCONDUFF

TownlandCASTLEBARNAGH

Place NameCASTLEBARNAGH

Place TypeTOWNLAND

Publication DetailsPosition on Page24Printing Date1856Act15&16Sheet Number72Map Reference2

Brendan

Thank you guys. P McG, I think I can discount the census results. The statutory marriage record for John McGrail and Elizabeth McMillan (Rush) from Paisley, Scotland shows his father, John, as deceased. His mother, Mary, is not indicated as deceased, however. 

I think the birth records for the two Johns from the Oughaval parish are extremely intriguing. I even looked up the addresses on Google maps, and the two addresses listed (one Altamont Street and one Prospect Avenue) are very close to each other in Westport. I need to figure out what this Thomas McGreal was up to... I will have to look up possible marriage records for him to either of the women listed, Mary O'Donnell and Sera Heraghty. Maybe that will help me out. To rootsireland!

Hello Kyle,

I think you cannot rule anything out at this stage. The absence of a McGreal and O’Donnell marriage with the right Christian names and the records that do exist upto 1911 may simply be indicative of human behaviour of concealing a family secret.

Pursuing the DNA line will hopefully allow you to focus on which group of McGreal ancestors to connect with. Fortunately the Westport McGreal area with its large diaspora in the US has many of this family researching their ancestry.

As for the Castlebarnagh, Kilconduff using the Griffith valuation in itself is not strong enough to base a connection. It is a census substitute and does not indicate the age of the head of household and the parish records show little to be encouraging. However if you have unlimited funds you can apply to the http://www.valoff.ie/en/Archives_Genealogy_Public_Office/ for details of John McGreal and his holding. This should indicate when changes in tenure on the land occurred suggesting a possible period of death and who took over the tenure as the family do not appear in the 1901 census. The records are known as the revision books or the cancellation books.

The Oughaval McGreal people as mentioned are the largest and well researched and the town Westport often drew other McGreal families from other areas throughout the late 19th century.

Several of the Westport families were engaged in the butchery trade and often members would attend fares as far afield as Ballaghaderreen which is now in Roscommon. In one instance I came across a family of ten orphaned from Westport area who were sent to extended families outside the town , some of which were sent to an aunt who had married into a family in Ballyhaunis in East Mayo.

As for the location Altamount Street and Prospect. The street is fairly easily identified but I feel the Prospect is not the location you have identified. In the parish records you will find the names of placenames which do not appear as townlands as we recognise them when used for civil records. There is an area known as Prospect which straddles the townland Fahburren, and Cloonagh Co. Mayo south of the town Westport. - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Fahburren,+Co.+Mayo,+Ireland/@53.7668311,-9.619302,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x48597c60bc852021:0xcf7c77c0f8425614

Rootsireland may offer you a means to spend money but I would advocate that you trawl through actual parish registers to avoid transcription errors that may occur with rootsireland. Focus on the McGreal family of course but also any clues that may be shown with the address field focussing on Altamont St and Prospect. http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1043

Once you have a DNA sample that allows comparison I would reach out to the Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/clansofmayo/ who have several McGreal researchers you can go behind the wall of online records and discover the more subtle family histories which may offer you an answer.

You have been very generous in your responses. I actually am a member of the Mayo Genealogy Group in Facebook, and I have contacted a couple of McGreals. Thus far, without more family DNA, there hasn't been any luck. I also am in the second half of a month's subscription to rootsireland, so I need to find time to search more after I get home from teaching. I have even found the records that indicate butchery as you state. Yet, let me ask you this: why would John indicate Galway as his place of birth on the passengers list? Is there a legitimate reason why this indication would occur... I always come back to that, and it frustrates me to no end!

As an update, I found a marriage record for Thomas MacGreal and Ellen Heraghty in July 1861. Ellen Heraghty serves as a witness in the birth of the illegitimate John MacGreal in April 1862, born tot Thomas MacGreal and Mary O'Donnell... hmmmm

The Griffiths Valuation was taken 1852, the only John McGrail in Galway and Mayo.

From the record it looks like he was an estate worker, matches farm labourer on his sons marriage certificate.

Scottish census 1901 and 1911 state he was born between 1860 and 1862

Brendan

Hello Brendan,

If you follow the Civil documents in Ireland you will find that there are inconsistencies where McGrail is used where previously the family name was shown as McGreal. In my own case the 1911 census identifies us as McGrail whereas the 1901 census and Griffiths have shown it as McGreal. Looking further into these inconsistencies the early Catholic parish records for these families identifies them originally as eal rather than ail, and in the main is due to illiteracy and an Anglican ear interpreting the name from pronunciation.

Pre 1890 many of the families that emigrated to the UK found the name McGreal altered to the anglicanized version McGrail. Those who emigrated to the US were to encounter the same fate with the ship lists completed onboard showing the name variant McGrail which people continued to use on their arrival. If we follow that names were set in stone all the Diaspora  McGrail family would have originated from a very small gene pool using the Griffith valuation as a research guide.

It was only after education and literacy improved that those emigrating after 1890 show signs that they retained the form of the name McGreal, though there are instances where they were joining settled families they occasionally took the McGrail name.

The John McGrail of Castlebarnagh, Kilconduff may yet prove correct but it would be necessary to review the information from the Revision books to ascertain when a change in leaseholder occurred and who took over. From this a civil death record may exist which would add to the story and as was practised the lease was often passed onto a family member and changes in name often occurred with males marrying into a lease, the daughter of the former leaseholder.

Still a lot more to do before a link to this John McGrail can be established.

Hello Kyle,

I have gone through the rootsireland and downloaded the available certs but will eventually need to check these against the actual entries as transcription errors are well evident from what I have seen to date.

You will find that there are several McGreal/Heraghty marriages which may indicate a close bond between the families and/or merely to protect land rights.

The child John born to Thomas and Ellen Heraghty McGreal ended up in New Hampshire and died in 1942. This is his memorial which I added back in 2013 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=108465960

You are good! Thank you very much. I will remove that John from the possibilities. 

As far as the Griffith's Valuation goes, I see two John McGreals in County Galway. There is one in the Tuam parish and one in the Killian parish. There are also two Mary O'Donnells. A year or two ago, I thought I had located John McGreal's birthplace in Claremorris, Mayo. I was wrong, but I found a John McGreal and a Mary O'Donnell in the Griffith's Valuation there as well, about 5 km apart from each other. I wish the entries had more personal information!

With the Griffith valuation there is no guarantee that John McGreal/McGrail would be shown. A scenario could exist that he was living with his father who would be shown as the leaseholder. Another scenario is that if he at the time of the valuation he was married to Mary O’Donnell he could have been living with her parents and the leaseholder would be shown as O’Donnell and no mention of McGreal/McGrail would appear.

It is a valuable resource but it has its limitations.

I probably should have made the first scenario clearer. The Castlebarnagh, Kilconduff printed 1856 is seven years before John born ca 1863. His father could have conceivably been as young as 15 at the time of the valuation and too young to have held a lease. I have estimated his age about 21 when marrying O’Donnell and as there appears to be no other record of other children to them in Ireland the recorded name of what may have been John’s (born ca 1863) grandfather would have been shown. Again this is mere speculation at this stage.

Hello, Margaret McGrail here , I also have no information on my family. My grandparents came from Ireland to Boston area, my grandfather Thomas McGrail, grandmother former name Mary McClusky , they both passed when my father was young. My father was also Thomas Mcgrail jr, born in Massachusetts. He passed early at 52.  That's all I really know of the McGrail family. I was told they were from West coast , Mayo, Galway area, 

I am visiting Ireland and will try to investigate the best I can,

Maggie