Looking for granddad Roche in or around Drogheda

Chris,

Can you provide any more details?

Do you know the names of John/Patrick's parents? siblings?

Do you have information about his wife or children? What were the children's names, in order if possible?

Anything else?

Some details might help us identify your Patrick in the Irish baptismal records/birth records.

Thanks!

 

Thanks for the offers it will take me some time to answer in detail your questions I am working at that now my pile of paper is 10 inches deep.

 

Chris

JPR answers to Ireland XO reaching out page 4 May 2024

Hi and thank you for the replies I have offered all the paperwork I have to IrelandXO reaching out but do not know how to post it or where. Answers below would have been in red but do not know how....

Firstly these are the records I have here in Carshalton Surrey:

I am not very IT savvy; I have been visiting Ireland and failing at every step to find Granddad JPR, John Patrick Roche over the years. I am having one more go and have posted from what I now have on his `Short Service call to arms` record when he joined the Royal Scots in Edinburgh 21 November 1894.

If I knew how I could help with some resources I have many photo scanned records of Roche`s GRO BMD pages, BMD Certificates, I have from the catholic church in Mellifont a sheet with all Roche`s by marriage groom, bride, birth, sponsors. I have been in the land registry in Dublin and have photo’d all under the Roche name in the Griffiths registers, I have photo`d records wills and the like in the National archive.

I have not accessed christening records in the National Library as I have not had a confirmed county until recently. I would like to download those for Co Louth 1874 -80 if that is possible but right now do not know how.

I have offered copy of all of the above in the past as it may be of use to others but have never had such offers taken up, I am trying yet again:

How could `Ireland XO` best use any of the above?

I have had contacted and visited Breeda Tuite in Mellifont in the past. I had a DNA done with one Laurence Roche who was a similar age to me 77 and connected to the Drybridge Roche it did not give a family connection. I would have a more general DNA done if I knew where to get it from in a form that could be posted presumably at IrelandXO and would then need some help posting it.

Now for some answers Patricia and Pat O Holloran.

From Patricia Wednesday 1st May 2024, 10:05PM

Hi Patricia:

Can you provide any more details?

>>What I have written is all I have for certain JPRs history is known after he arrived in Scotland - England.

 

Do you know the names of John/Patrick's parents? Siblings?

>>No Just stories and no names I am afraid.  It is said that his parents died when he was young he never knew them; JPR was brought up by an uncle and two aunts? I have no birth certificate for JPR, more on Drybridge Christopher later.

Do you have information about his wife or children? What were the children's names, in order if possible?

>>JPR from Marriage certificate; John Patrick Roche age 29 married at Cheriton @ All Souls CH, Cheriton Street, England, Co Kent to Edith Mary Birch 29-8-1909 fathers name was given as Michael Joseph deceased; , they had two children, From Birth Certificate Maurice Patrick 2-6-1917, Patricia Anne 1929.

Anything else?

>>Within the answers given in the questions and below;

Some details might help us identify your Patrick in the Irish baptismal records/birth records.

>>I now believe I have a county at least the word Louth is written in JPRs hand when he joined up with Royal Scots. His marriage certificate gave father Michael Joseph deceased.

 

From Pat O Holloran, Wednesday 1st May 2024, 10:58PM

Hi Pat

Hello Chris, I live locally and found a death in Drybridge, Drogheda of a Christopher Roche aged 86, a farmer. I think this is the parish of Mellifont or often Mell on the north side of Drogheda heading towards Slane in County Meath. Widow Nannie Roche present at death.

>> I have a family tree going back to 1736 for this family Christopher b19-9-1852?, m27-1-1897, d25-4-1939 age 86; wife Anne (Nannie) b1858?, d14-2-1941 at Newfoundwell age 83 no children; Christopher had 11 brothers and sisters I have the Mellifont CH record, The farm at Drybridge and Drybridge House was inherited from his father John b1810?, d26-2-1887 age 77 @ Drybridge (I have the will), lived with brother Laurence b6-11-1858, d26-9-1921 age 63: sisters Mary Anne b15-8-1853, d26-3-1939, age 84 spinster; Kate (Catherine) b12-10-1854?, d 7-6-1894 age 35 spinster;

Certificates held for ; Christopher m cert, d cert; John fathers d cert, will; Anne (Nannie) b , d cert; Brother Laurence d cert probate administration doc; Sisters Mary Anne d cert;  Kate d cert; 

I have the names and dates for all the other 8 brothers and sisters if interested. 

There are two Johns and 3 Patricks born in Mellifont parish from 1875 to 1885, it appears to me that we can rule out John as he must have died as the same parents had another John a few years later.

>>I do not find any John`s between 1875-85 on the Mellifont register I had from the church what happened was this;

I visited father Dooley and he gave me this A3 printout 1 page m by groom, 1 page m by bride, 3 pages baptismal, there are many other names other than Roche on these pages.

The 3 Patricks are more problematic as they are all born in the correct period but if you found his marriage record the fathers name and if in Scotland the mothers name may be on the register.

>>JPR when he joined the Army in Scotland just gave his place of birth as Ireland and age as 18 years and 1 month his English m cert says his father was Michael Joseph deceased nothing more.

The 3 Patricks are born to Thomas Roche and Mary Carroll and baptised on the 17th March 1878; witnesses Jason Kieran and Mary McCullough;

>>The b cert I have here says the father Thomas and mother Carolan Patrick was born 14 March 1878 the Mellifont CH record says baptised as you have found 17 March, Mother Carroll but came from the townland of Mell;

My auntie Pat had believed this was her Fathers b cert but when the 1911 census was published my brother found this Patrick still living at home when ours was in Barracks in Edinburgh Thomas or Mary could not read or write and made their marks as X on the b cert.

2nd entry is a bit confusing as the father I can find is Thomas mother Mary Moore baptised 18th March 1878 as day later, address Tullyallen, witnesses Patrick Tuite and Mary Doggett;  

>>I share your confusion I have a b cert for Patrick Roche 25-3-1878 born to Thomas and Anne Roche formerly Moore in Tullyallen; I also have a b cert for Mary 17-2-1876; there seemed to be 5 children in this family. The Mellifont CH record says baptised 18 March 1878 all other detail as you have them.

3rd entry is 6th Nov 1878 father Patrick mother Mary McGrane, witnesses Patrick Carolan & Bridget Briscoe address Littlegrange. The names of everybody are still found locally even the unusual ones.

>>This entry is all as you have it on the Mellifont record. I have to say here that JPR celebrated his birthday early March I am told the 14^th

All civil registrations including the death should be found on the free site linked, click on civil and search, sign in, any name will do, and free from there, they should be registered as the penalty was severe in not done. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ ;

>>I have all the BMD records/lists many photographed from the GRO records held in Dublin and at the Pierce Street Library They were mightily interested in one Christopher I tracked he had owned Larkfield farm at Clondalkin which became part of Mount Street Trust after he died in 1938.

Drogheda was a major port at the time with regular services to England and no doubt Scotland.

>>Drogheda Steam Ship Company ran cattle to Scotland on the Clyde. Another story was that JPR left Ireland on a cattle boat to Scotland working his passage. His military record shows that on joining he had a scar on his left hand he said from a mining injury.

The Moore lady had at least 6 children, 1870 to 1890, the other two only show one sibling each, no Christopher mentioned. The site linked above should show the marriages if post 1864 and you may find a father of the groom called Christopher.

There is a marriage to Anne Moore in 1875 in Slane parish in Meath, the border meanders around Mellifont, so married in her parish in 1868 in Mellifont the marriage to Margaret McGrane took place. I can find no marriage in the surrounding counties of a Roche to a Carroll so may be a transcription error. You can see the parish registers here but only search by event, year and month and read not always easy. https://registers.nli.ie/ 

>>There are two Roche Carroll marriages in the Mellifont register sheets I have James Roche to Margaret Carroll 20 Nov 1838 Drybridge and John Roche to Mary Carroll 1 Sept 1824 Tullyallen. There are indeed many transcription errors as many priests were barely literate.

From 1870 to 1890 there was only 1 Christopher Roche baptised and that was in Meath, I searched only Louth and Meath.

>>The Christopher has to have been of an age that JPR could have lived with him.

There is an interesting site here about Louth but no certificates; there is a Castle Roche south west of Dundalk which no doubt housed important Roches at some period. https://jbhall.clahs.ie/ 

>>I have been to Castle Roche in Cork could find no one to speak to and wandered through the buildings and around without being bothered.

There are two Drogheda Facebook groups Drogheda Down Memory Lane and Drogheda Down Memory Lane - Lost Families but it is not very active but you might get lucky.

>>I am afraid I do not do facebook I found it too hard my daughter took it down.

>>If Patricia and Pat you have stayed with me this far I wonder:

The story says that JPR granddad lost his parents when he was so young he never knew them he was brought up by an uncle and two aunts. I gather he spent some of his growing up in an orphanage and from what auntie Pat had told my brother he wrote with a copperplate hand The letter that arrived in Broadstairs said it was a death bed plea to put things right and mentioned did you get the knife and the ball? It seems curious to me that JPR left Ireland in the December when one of the aunts Kate had died in June of the year; I have to ask myself if Kate at 18/19 was his mother there may have been a man working at the farm May/June she falls pregnant in which case did she go away somewhere to have the baby is that why it is so hard finding a birth certificate? I am open to suggestions around this. What is certain is that something went wrong in John Patrick`s upbringing to make him refuse contact with his family. Neither my father Maurice Patrick or my aunt Patricia Anne could get any background out of their father. I am certain that a Christopher was involved as when I was born granddad said to my mother who named me Christopher “another Christopher in the family”. It is my brother Michael`s belief that the family had to have money and education to be able to find our too now posted missing grandfather.

I would like to meet in Ireland when we next come over and would welcome email contact at

sailor at chrisroche.co.uk.

Regards

Chris

Chris,

I found a couple of records that I hope might help.  On one UK record, dated 1939, John's birth date is said to be 14 March 1878.  (That said, birth dates can vary widely in the records. Birthdays were not celebrated in Ireland and people were not as aware of their birth date as we are now.)

The other record, a WWI British Army pension record, notes that John was born in Drogheda, Co. Louth.

 

1939 England and Wales Register

Name

John P Roche

Gender

Male

Marital Status

Married

Birth Date

14 Mar 1878

Residence Date

1939

Address

44

Residence Place

Egham, Surrey, England

Occupation

Clerk, Local Food Office

Line Number

41

Schedule Number

156

Sub Schedule Number

1

Enumeration District

Dmgl

Borough

Egham

Registration district

32-1

Inferred Spouse

Edith M Roche

Household Members (Name)

Gender

Birth Year

John P Roche

Male

1878

Edith M Roche

Female

1888

 

 

UK, British Army World War I Pension Records 1914-1920

Name

Patrick Roche

Gender

Male

Residence Age

18

Birth Date

abt 1876

Birth Place

Drogheda, Louth

Marriage Date

29 Aug 1909

Marriage Place

All Souls Chinton Kent

Document Year

1894

Regiment Name

The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

Regimental Number

5216

Number of Images

4

Household List (Name)

Relation to Soldier

Patrick Roche

Edith Mary Birch

Spouse

Hi Pat the information you post only confirms some of what is known it is useful to have the note of the pension record. the marriage place was Cheriton that is adjacent to Folkestone, Gdad had been based at Shorncliffe camp a military base when he met the local girl Edith Mary he married. We are still stuck in that he never had in his possession a birth certificate. Yes he lived in Egham in 1939 from there he went to Carlton Avenue Broadstairs around 1941 again working for the food office JPR had lost his left arm at the first battle at Ypre 1915 he is buried at St Peters Broadstairs a much lapsed catholic in a protestant cemetery. 

The Thomas Roche, Roache, Mary Carolan birth Patrick connection although the birth date is one JPR used cannot be right as the Irish 1911 census has him at home in Ireland while the 1911 Scottish census has JPR was in barracks in Edinburgh with his English wife. I notice that neither Thomas, Mary and one of the witnesses at the marriage ceremony could read or write  all three including Anne McCullough made their mark with an X. Thomas was listed here as a Dealer a widower and his new wife a spinster from Ropewalk Drogheda. I have this marriage cert and birth cert for Patrick.

Does dealer imply gypsy/traveller?

I am less sure about the the Thomas Roche, Anne Moore connection I do not have the marriage cert and only the birth certs for Patrick and Mary both born at Tullyallen, I will need to follow up the parents deaths if before say up to 1880. I will also need to track the other Children Thomas, Robert and Kate to rule the family in or out. it is possible and more likely that JPR was 16 when he joined the army?

Neither Marriage shows in the Mellifont register that I have.

What were the two Johns you found please.

I have spent twenty years looking for JPR my Auntie Pat had been at it from when she was 16 that is 1945 until she died. Where the hell is the birth certificate and birth registered?

Grateful for any help.

Chris

 

Hi Pat I just typed in a reply and lost it somehow so have to start again. as I said I do not do IT at all well.

I think that we are not looking for a John now if that helps those found just do not look right.

I have 5 pages from the Mellifont RC CH register 13.38MB which are too big to post here with a piffling 8MB limit so will need your email unless there is another way?

The link you sent I only got an error message when I tried to look it up pasted into a new link so no go there.

I has mail from you on 5th and replied later that same day.

I mentioned the 1911 census regards Patrick Roche born to Thomas Roche and Mary Carolan and that at that time he was living at home in Ireland while the Scottish census had Patrick Gdad in barracks in Edinburgh. I personally have not seen that census record just been told about it, I have copy of the Scottish census page from my brother.

What is the difference full HTML basic HTML and plain text how should I post?

 

Chris

 

 

Hello Pat

I do not use Gmail I have a domain to which the two emails I use are attached/associated.

I can save you a visit to Mellifont I have been through the graves there and the display boards I have photographed the Roche graves. My big research visit was prior to the Nat Lib of Ireland putting up baptismal records on line. At that time the Griffith records could only be accessed by going to the Land registry which is what I did photographing anything remotely Roche I visited the Ch and had the Mellifont files at that time and also met with Breeda Tuite living locally her family bought Littlegrange  I photographed the hose there abandoned at the time I visited.

Chris