Hi Sandie,
There are no death records for 1863. Civil registration of births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations didn’t commence in Ireland until 1864. I didn’t find an 1863 baptism record for a Margaret Roche, but did find the baptism of Maria Roche, daughter of John Roche and Mary Moloney. She was baptized in the Abbeyfeale Catholic Parish on 26 December 1863. This is the same date you have for the birth of the Margaret Roche I couldn’t find.
In addition I could not find a civil registration birth record for a Margaret Roche, daughter of John Roche and Mary Moloney dated 12/28/1875. John and Mary Roche of Caherlane could not have had a daughter named Margaret born in December 1875, as civil registration records show their daughter Julia was born less than three months later in Caherlane, County Limerick, on 11 March 1876 . In addition, Abbeyfeale Catholic Parish records show that Julia was baptized the next day, on 12 March 1876.
I’ve attached Julia’s birth record to this reply.
Below is a transcription of her 12 March 1876 Abbeyfeale baptism from the Find My Past (FMP) website:
Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Julia
Last name Roche
Birth year -
Baptism year 1876
Baptism date 12 Mar 1876
Parish Abbeyfeale
Diocese Limerick
County Limerick
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Joannis
Father's last name Roche
Mother's first name(s) Mariæ
Mother's last name Moloney
Repository National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634901#page/1/mode/1up
Register Baptism
Record set Ireland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from Ireland
Source: Find My Past/National Library of Ireland: http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634901#page/1/mode/1up
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In the baptism Julia’s father is recorded as, “Joannis,” which is one of the Latin spellings for John, while her mother is recorded as Mariae, which is the Latin for Mary.
The names and years of birth for the 10 Roche children I located at irishgenealogy.ie follow. I’ve also included the birth for your great grandmother, Kate Roche again so that you can see, and then access all the civil birth records you are interested in from the irishgenealogy.ie website:
Margaret Roche, 1866
Kate Roche, 1868
Julia Roche, 1869
Michael Roche, 1870
Patrick Roche, 1874
Julia Roche, 1876
Johanna Roche, 1878
Ellen Roche, 1880
Thomas Roche, 1882
Bridget Roche, 1885
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You’ll see the births of two children named Julia Roche, born in 1869 and 1876. This means that the Julia Roche born in 1869 would have died young, and that John and Mary named another child after her.
Irishgenealogy.ie has digitized birth records from 1864 to 1919, and marriage records from 1864 to 1943. Death records however, have only been digitized from 1878 to 1968. But there are death indexes available at irishgenealogy.ie from 1864 to 1877. The website plans to digitize death records from 1864 in the future.
The death indexes give very little information about the person. For example, the following death index may refer to the death of John and Mary’s daughter Julia. The names of her parents, her place of death, and the cause of death are not recorded in the index, but her age at death is recorded. Her age was 0 at the time of death, which means she died sometime before her first birthday:
Name JULIA ROCHE
Date of Death 1869
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Newcastle
Deceased Age at Death 0
Returns Year 1869
Returns Quarter 4
Returns Volume No 20
Returns Page No 345
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If you think the death of Julia in the index above may refer to John and Mary Roche’s daughter, you can order her full death record form the General Register Office (GRO) in Roscommon Town, County Roscommon. Go to the following irishgenealogy.ie link for instructions about ordering birth, marriage, and death certificates from the GRO: https://is.gd/flo5kE
If you do order Julia’s death record, order a photocopy of the death, as these are only 4 Euros, payable by credit card. Her death record should tell you where and when she died, the cause of death, and the name of the person who was present at the death. The person present at the death of a child was in many cases, one of the parents. There’s no guarantee however, that the above death index refers to the daughter of John and Mary Roche.
I also found the Abbeyfeale Catholic baptism records for nine children of John Roche and Mary Moloney. These come from the Find My Past (FMP) website, which is a subscription and pay-as-you-go website, with the exception that FMP does not charge to access Catholic baptism, marriage, and available burial records. But many Catholic churches in the 19th century did not keep records of burials. Some did though. You will have to register with FMP before accessing baptism, marriage, and burial transcriptions. Registration is free. The really good thing about the FMP website is that attached to Catholic baptism, marriage, and available burial transcriptions are links that will take you to copies of the original parish register entries for the baptism, marriage, or burial. These original parish registers are held by the National Library of Ireland which is headquartered in Kildare Street, Dublin. Accessing copies of the original parish register entries online is also free.
Below are the names and years of Abbeyfeale baptisms for 9 of the Roche children uncovered at the FMP website:
Maria Roche, 1863
Margarita Roche, 1866
Catherina Roche, 1868
Julia Roche, 1869
Michal Roche, 1870
Helena Roche, 1873
Patritius Roche, 1874
Julia Roche, 1876
Joanna Roche, 1878
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Just a note before proceeding. I think there is a tendency to confuse two different but similar sounding townlands in County Limerick. I know I was confused at first. Caherlane was in the Civil Parish of Abbeyfeale as well as the Catholic Parish of Abbeyfeale. There is another completely different townland called Caherline, which was in the Civil Parish of Ballybrood.
The Catholic Parish Church for parishioners living in the Ballybrood Civil Parish, was the Caherconlish Catholic Parish, according to a book by Brian Mitchell called, “A Guide To Irish Parish Registers.”
See the IreAtlas entry at the following link showing that Caherline was situated in the Ballybrood Civil Parish: https://is.gd/FA1UGo
A Google Map shows that Caherline, by the shortest route, is 48.7 miles northeast of Caherlane: https://is.gd/eqWkUj
Another Google Map shows the close proximity between Caherline, Ballybrood, and Caherconlish: https://is.gd/XJAJFc
DEATH RECORDS FOR JOHN AND MARY ROCHE
The next search involved looking for John and Mary Roche and any of their children in the 1901 census. The census search engine comes from the National Archives of Ireland website link at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
The 1901 census would tell if John and Mary were still living after the birth of Bridget in 1885. I only found 50 year old widow Mary Roche and her 18 year old son Thomas in the 1901 census living in Caherlane. Aside from being a widow the 1901 census shows that Mary is a Dress Maker who could read and who could speak Irish and English. Her 18 year old son Thomas is a labourer who could read and write and speak English. The 1901 census transcription for Mary and Thomas can be found at the National Archives of Ireland link at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Caher/Caher__…
Once at the transcription make sure to click on, “Show all information” to view the full census.
What this census shows is that Mary’s husband died between the birth of Bridget in 1885 (or perhaps a little bit before her birth) and the 1901 census, and so I looked for John’s death record at irishgenealogy.ie and believe I found it. The death record shows that John Roche died in Caherlane on 18 February 1897 at the age of 65. His occupation had been labourer. The cause of death was “Old age. No medical attendant.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local assistant registrar was John’s wife, Mary. The assistant registrar, Thomas O’Connell, recorded the death on what appears to be 8 February, but that doesn’t make sense as John died 10 days after 8 February. But, Thomas O’Connell, the assistant registrar left a note in the left margin of the death record, which appears to read that John Roche’s wife Mary told him that her husband died on 18 January rather than 18 February. John Roche’s death record is at Number 347 in the attached death register.
I next went to the 1911 census to see if Mary Roche and her son Thomas were enumerated in Caherlane in that enumeration. I found that they were. See the transcription at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Caher/Caher__…
Mary is shown to be a 72 year old widow who cannot read, but who can speak Irish and English. Her 33 year old son Thomas is an agricultural labourer who could read and write and who was single. You can see the big differences between the 1901 census and the 1911 census. In 1901 Mary is shown to be 50 years old and able to read. Ten years later, in the 1911 census she is now 72 years old and not able to read or write.
In the 1901 census Thomas is 18 years old, but 10 years later in the 1911 census, he has aged 15 years and instead of being 28 years old, he is 33 years old. This shows how inaccurate these old census returns can be from one 10 year period to the next.
I now looked for Mary’s death record from 1911 to the 1940s and may have found it. Mary died on 24 March 1925 in Caherlane, at the age of 86. The death record shows that she was the widow of John Roche, “a Labourer.” The cause of death was “old age. No medical attendant.” The person who was present at the death and who reported the death to the local assistant registrar was Mary’s daughter, Ellen Harnett, who resided at Abbeyfeale Hill. The assistant registrar, John O’Connell, recorded Mary’s death on 28 March 1925. Mary’s death is at Number 338 in the attached death register.
Mary’s daughter Ellen Harnett gives a clue as to where her parents and her siblings may have worshipped, thus telling us what their parish church was and perhaps if the Roche family members were buried in the church’s graveyard. The parish church where the Roche family may have worshipped, I thought, might be found in Ellen’s marriage record to the Harnett fellow she married. Irish tradition holds that marriages take place in the bride’s parish, hence Ellen’s parish may be the parish where she and her family had worshipped in the past.
I found the marriage record showing that Ellen Roche and Cornelius Harnett were married in the Roman Catholic Church of Abbeyfeale on 25 January 1912. Both were of “full age” when they married. Cornelius had been a widower when he married, while Ellen was a spinster, meaning she had not been married before. Cornelius’s occupation was “Labourer,” while Ellen’s occupation was “None.” At the time of marriage Cornelius was living in Abbeyfeale while Ellen was living in a location called Meenkilly, which may have been, or is a section of Abbeyfeale, or is a suburb of Abbeyfeale. The marriage record also shows that Cornelius Harnett’s father was a farmer named John Harnett, while Ellen’s father was a labourer named John Roche. The priest who married Cornelius and Ellen was Father William Fenton. The witnesses to the marriage were John D. Leahy and Annie S. Cannell. The deputy registrar, Thomas O’Connell, recorded the marriage on 6 March 1912. The marriage record is the last entry in the attached register.
The Roman Catholic Chapel of Abbeyfeale would have been St. Mary’s Church, on Church Street. I’ve also seen information showing that Church Street is called New Street, and on older maps, Chapel Street. The church is no longer there but on the same spot where it stood is St. Mary’s Boy’s School. For a Google Street View of the Boy’s School, where St. Mary’s once stood, go to: https://is.gd/WzpDQ3
The sign on the entrance lintel of the boy’s school is in the Irish language and translates as, “St. Mary’s Boys School.”
According to the Find A Grave website, burials in St. Mary’s Churchyard began in 1904. You can read a description of this cemetery at the Find A Grave link at: https://is.gd/qKvOR0
The following Google Street View shows the location of the cemetery behind the boy’s school, where interments began in 1904: https://is.gd/qUh6Iy
Mary Roche may be buried in St. Mary’s graveyard, though no one has submitted information to the Find A Grave website with information about her in that cemetery. Her husband John died before interments began in this St. Mary’s Cemetery in 1904, but may be buried in the older, but nearby cemetery, called “Abbeyfeale St. Mary’s Cemetery,” on Old Church Street. See the Find A Grave description of this cemetery at: https://is.gd/DtHsUx
You can see the wall surrounding this cemetery in Old Church Street at the following Google Street View: https://is.gd/Qt3ZAM
You can view the location of St. Mary’s Church where Ellen Roche and Cornelius Harnett were married in Abbeyfeale on an Ordnance Survey Map from the 1888 to 1913 time period at the GeoHive website link. The church on this map is called, “St. Mary’s R.C. Chapel: http://bit.ly/2HTai1m
A little below St. Mary’s R.C. Chapel you’ll see the location of the Abbey and the graveyard in Old Church Street. As mentioned earlier, John Roche may be buried in this graveyard. It’s also possible Mary is buried here as well, if her husband John is.
Sandie, you may want to consider writing a query to Ireland XO People which you can access at the Ireland Reaching Out XO Chronicles link: https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/history-and-genealogy
Maybe someone who reads your query will be able to access newspaper archives from the 19th and 20th centuries for any information/obituaries about the deaths of John Roche in 1897 and his wife Mary 40 years later in 1937. The older of the two newspapers is the Limerick Chronicle, which was founded in 1768 and purchased by the Limerick Leader in 1958. See:
https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/limerick-leader-newspaper-archive
Or, perhaps someone living in the Abbeyfeale area could walk through the two St. Mary’s cemeteries as noted from the Find A Grave site above, and see if they can locate the graves of John and Mary Roche and any of their children who may be buried with them. There is no guarantee however, that gravestones exist for John and Mary in either cemetery.
Best of Luck Sandie,
Dave
