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Joseph Archbold, possible connection to Charles Archbold

I am ultimately looking for the parents of Charles Archbold. Born @ 1819 in County Kildare, possibly in Castledermot or Derryoughter and a Catholic. I cannot locate a birth certificate, which does not surprise me. The parish registers are virtually unreadable so that’s not an option. I have posted this before but to review, Charles married Jane Dunne in Tinryland parish County Carlow in 1850. He was living in Benekerry, Carlow at the time and raised 3 of his children there. He died in 1885 in Urglin (Rutland) Carlow. Now, I’m looking at all Archbolds living in Carlow around the same time Charles was alive to try to establish some kind of family connection. 

Of particular interest is a Joseph Archbold, born in 1870 in Benekerry, County Carlow. Joseph was a coachman who married twice, once to Elizabeth Myers in 1892 in Tinryland Parish with whom he had 6 children. The 1901 census has the family living in Johnstown, Carlow. His second marriage was to Mary Meehan (Muhan?) in 1905 with whom he had an additional 6 children.  Joseph Archbold died in Benekerry in 1952. 

The Archbold name is not usual for Carlow so I can’t help believing Joseph is somehow related to my Charles, but the timeframes don’t match up well. Joseph’s second marriage record indicates his father’s name was Charles and erroneously (I believe) indicates Charles was born in America. I could only find one birth record for a Joseph Archbold born in a workhouse on 17 Feb 1870 in Carlow listing a mother named Mary but not her maiden name. I don’t know if this is the same Joseph Archbold described in the marriage records so I can’t say for sure if his parents would be Charles and Mary.  I have also looked for earlier and later birth dates and have found none.

I have plenty of documentation for the following Archbolds: Charles, Jane Dunne, children: Ellen, Mary and James Archbold; also Dan Archbold, Patrick Archbold and John Archbold.  I’m interested in your thoughts as to where to go next with trying to tie Joseph with Charles.

terri.d2022@ou…

14 replies

TerriD,

You say that you have found a birth of a Joseph Archbold on 17.2.1870 but that it does not give the mother Mary’s maiden name.  That birth was illegitimate, so Archbold was Mary’s maiden name:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03359/2231519.pdf

The father’s name was not recorded. A father’s name only appeared on an illegitimate birth certificate if he was present at the registration and confirmed paternity. Evidently in this case that didn’t happen.

You could check with Carlow County Library to see if they have the workhouse admission records for 1870. You might learn a little more about the mother from that, eg her townland and whether she had any other children:

https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Carlow/

 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thank you for your response. I'm confident that Joseph's father was a Charles Archbold, based on his marriage record, so the workhouse record listing Mary Archbold as his mother must belong to a different Joseph. That's helpful. I'm not sure why I can't find the civil record of Joseph's birth, though. His first marriage was at "full age" in 1892. I estimate his date of birth to be around 1871 but have also looked at civil records in both Kildare and Carlow leaving dates out in my search and have found nothing. I thought civil registration was a requirement.

terri.d2022@ou…

Civil registration was a requirement but not everyone bothered, especially in the early years (it started in 1864). Many births were registered without a forename too. Plus children might be adopted, or a mother remarry meaning the birth is under her previous surname not the one used later.  Records are also sometimes indexed incorrectly.

Here’s a death for Charles Archbold in Rutland, Carlow in 1885.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

I’d guess that’s Joseph’s father. Informant was daughter Ellen so you now know Joseph had an unmarried sister alive in 1885. Charles wife was also still alive in 1885. Ellen married in 1896:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10509/5827984.pdf

Charles wife Jane’s death in 1896:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05965/4695709.pdf

I notice that Mary Archbold had another illegitimate child in Carlow workhouse in 1873:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

The death records for Charles and Jane are for my ancestors. They had 3 children. Mary 1850, James 1852 and Ellen 1854. I discounted Joseph as a child since his birth is likely to be late 60s, early 70s. I know having children over a 15 to 20 year period is not unheard of, but I find it hard to believe there would be so many "missing' children born of Charles and Jane between 185 and 1870 if that were the case.

Thank you for clarifying the civil record problem.

terri.d2022@ou…

If Joseph was born c 1871 then it’s possible he was actually the illegitimate son of either Mary or Ellen, and passed off as a sibling. Brought up by the grandparents unaware of his real origins. That was a fairly common arrangement if a girl got pregnant in her teens and wasn’t in a position to support the child. Or he might be adopted.

I don’t see a baptism for him, so it’s going to be challenging.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

That's a very interesting theory.  I did find a different marriage record for Joseph to his 1905 marriage to Mary Meehan, which list both his parents, Charles and Mary. So I can be reasonably certain those are the names I'm looking for.  Charles' daughter Mary would have been 20-21 when Joseph was born, if she were the mother and he was illegitimate. I do have her baptism record. The second illegitimate son, William born in 1873 is also something to pursue.  Mary married James Day Spencer in 1877 in Dublin and moved ultimately to Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England where she died in 1922.  No children were listed in the census.  I know this is just a theory but since Mary was born in Bennekerry, Carlow in 1850, I'm wondering if it was common for an unwed mother to give birth in a workhouse, then have the child raised by the parents. Both Joseph and William were born in a workhouse in Carlow.

I appreciate your insights!

 

 

terri.d2022@ou…

It was certainly very common for an unwed mother to give birth in the workhouse. The statutory birth records and workhouse admission records are full of them. Often the workhouse master registered the birth. The workhouse had a hospital (which was free at a time when most medical care had to be paid for). So some pregnant women appear to have checked themselves in to get that care. (And were later discharged when fit again).

I am not aware of any studies on what they then did with their children.

You say Joseph’s parents were Charles & Mary.  So who is the Jane who died in 1896 with a daughter Ellen? I thought she was probably Charles wife.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Yes, my ancestor Charles married Jane Dunne in Tinryland parish in 1850 and had 3 children 1850- Mary, 1852 James and 1854 Ellen.  Jane Dunne Archbold died in 1896.  That's why I'm so confused over a Joseph Archbold, born in Benekerry @1870 with a father Charles and a mother Mary.  It all seems too coincidental.  The marriage record which identifies both parents is attached.

terri.d2022@ou…

Terri D, 

Griffiths Valuation for Co. Carlow (1852) just lists 1 Charles Archbold in the county. He lived in Bennekerry in plot 2d which was a house, probably a small labourer’s cottage.

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

Bennekerry was also Joseph’s address when he re-married in 1905.

His address in 1892 was Ballynakill and he’s there in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Johnstown/Ballynakilbeg/1041747/

He’s back in Ballynakill by the 1911 census. The 2 sets of children together make it quite clear it’s the same family.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Carlow/Johnstown/Ballinakillbeg/311449/

So I am pretty sure you have the right Joseph and the right father. So why did the priest put his mother down as Mary when it appears to have been Jane? I notice that no surname is given for her whereas all the other mothers, save two, have full names. There’s another further down the page where there’s a blank, and one up the page with no forename. My guess is that the priest made a mistake. He forgot to record those names and in your family's case just guessed Mary.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

I am hesitant to make that leap for the following reasons:

1. I can easily find the baptism records in Tinryland parish for Charles and Jane's 3 children: Mary, James, and Ellen, the youngest, Ellen, being baptized in 1854. Yet no record for a much later year for Joseph.  This alone is not a big deal, except for my other 2 points.

2. While it's not impossible, it's very unusual for there to be 17 years between one child and the next (assuming Joseph was born around 1870) without there being children born between those two periods who died as babies.  I can find none.

3. If Jane Dunn were Joseph's mother, she would be 55 when he was born - extremely unlikely.  

4. Just because Joseph lived in Bennekerry, it doesn't mean that the other Archbold living in Bennekerry is his father (although I will admit, there aren't many Archbolds in Bennekerry, but Joseph also lived in Johnstown at different times.  Additionally, there is another Archbold living a few miles away in Carlow town on Chapel Lance. according to Griffiths. His name is Dan Archbold, born 1816 in Castledermot, Kildare and living in Carlow in 1841 and 1852. Dan's son John Archbold had a daughter Bridget for whom Mary Spence (nee Archbold - Charles' daughter) was godmother - so there's definately some kind of family connection there - but Joseph is a mystery.  

 

Interestingly, I looked up Joseph's second wife's birth record (Mary Meehan). Born 1863. It lists her father as James and her mother as Maria Timmons, whereas her marriage record lists her mother as Mary Lynch. Either an error or her father married twice, not sure.

 

terri.d2022@ou…

My feeling is that Joseph was probably illegitimate or perhaps informally adopted (there was no formal adoption law then). He might be the son of Mary or Ellen. But those possibilities could account for the discrepancy about his mother’s name on the marriage record. Have you looked up the 1892 RC marriage to see what that says about his parents?

 

 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Yes, the 1892 marriage record just lists Charles as his father. No mother listed.

I really appreciate your thoughts and willingness to share your ideas with me. 

 

TerrI D

terri.d2022@ou…

Terri,

Can’t really add anything to my previous thoughts.  They say here: “It’s a wise man that knows his own father.” In this case it seems he may not really have known who either of his parents were.  So I now lean even more to illegitimacy. Maybe we’ll never know.

 

Elwyn

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks for trying to work through this with me.

 

Terri

terri.d2022@ou…

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