Jenny,
I can’t help directly with finding who replaced Thomas on lot 3 in Lisball. Griffiths Valuation for that townland was compiled in 1855. So he was there then. There is a set of records that take that information forward right up to about 1930. They are called the Valuation Revision records (sometimes the Cancelled Books). Griffiths clerks revisited properties every couple of years and noted changes of occupant, landlord and of improvements or deterioration to buildings and land. Their amendments were written in a different coloured ink for each year. They used each book for about 10 years before starting a new one. Typically there’s about 6 books covering the period 1855 – 1930. So using those books you can track forward. However the records for the Republic of Ireland are not on-line. They are held by the Valuation office in Dublin and they will do look ups for you, though I think there is a fee to pay.
https://www.valoff.ie/en/archive-research/
I have attached an example of a page from the Revision records for a townland in Co. Antrim (the records for Northern Ireland are on-line) to give you an idea of how the information was recorded and amended.
You ask if your family would have used much Gaelic in the 1800s. I’d say it was unlikely. If they came from Scotland in the 1600s they would most likely have spoken it then but, as in Scotland, English gradually replaced Gaelic, and in Ireland especially amongst the protestant population.
Gaelic faded at different speeds in different areas but as an example, the last native Gaelic speaker in Ayrshire reputedly died when Robert Burns was 2 years old (ie 1761).
Source: http://www.spns.org.uk/CtAyr.html
In Scotland one of the reasons Gaelic disappeared was commercial. If you were conducting business with England or elsewhere, Gaelic wasn’t much use. English was the language used in business and industry. Ireland was much the same. So Gaelic continued uninterrupted in remoter parts of Scotland and in rural Ireland but in Dublin or Edinburgh or Aberdeen you needed to speak English to get on. (Your ancestors trained as Doctors and teachers. They needed to speak fluent English to do that).
I was on the island of Inish Turk some years ago off the coast of Co Mayo. Population is about 70 or 80. It’s largely English speaking. I had expected there to be a strong tradition of Irish. The islanders explained that all through the 1800s and early 1900s they knew there would never be jobs for their children on the island and so they encouraged them to speak English all the time. If they were to find a decent job in Dublin, London or New York they needed English. If they only spoke Irish/Gaelic they’d be almost unemployable. So economic necessity had pushed their culture aside. Sad, but it’s how life is sometimes.
http://www.inishturkisland.com
Here’s some notes I made a few years ago about the use of Gaelic by Scots settlers in Ireland. It was fairly common in the 1600s and 1700s (and there’s specific mention of Scots in Cavan speaking it then) but by the 1800s it wasn’t used that much.
“Native Gaelic-Speaking Protestants
There is much circumstantial evidence of Protestants who were native speakers of Gaelic, and other Protestants who became very fluent through everyday interaction with other native speakers. Many of these Protestant Gaelic speakers came from Scotland. During the plantations of Ulster in the early 1600s only ‘inland Scots’ were supposed to be settlers; this policy was intended to exclude Gaelic-speaking Highlanders, but failed to do so. When the Marquis of Argyll brought his troops to Antrim during the 1640s uprisings, most of them would have been Gaelic speakers, and many settled in Ireland when they had finished their military service. Overpopulation and the commercialisation of estates in Scotland also pushed people from Argyll to Antrim in the 1690s; sometimes the dispossessed were recruited for military campaigns in Ireland.
During the time of the Plantations of Ulster there was little difference between the Gaelic of many Scottish settlers and the Irish of the natives. The Irish of Antrim shared many features with Scottish Gaelic, and the Gaelic of Kintyre and Argyll was very similar to Antrim Irish. Robert MacAdam wrote in 1873:
Even yet the Glensmen of Antrim go regularly to Highland fairs, and communicate without the slightest difficulty with the Highlanders. Having myself conversed with both Glensmen and Arranmen, I can testify to the absolute identity of their speech (Ó Baoill 2000: 122).
There are some fascinating accounts which prove that some of the Protestant settlers in Ulster spoke Scottish Gaelic. John Richardson (1664-1747), rector of Belturbet in County Cavan since 1693, wrote some interesting letters on the subject. In 1711 a correspondent of Richardson, J. Maguire, noted the following:
I met many of the inhabitants, especially of the baronies of Glenarm, Dunluce and Kilconaway, who could not speak the English tongue, and asking them in Irish what religion they professed they answered they were Presbyterians ... I had the curiosity to go to their meeting on the Sunday following, where I heard their minister preach to them in Irish at which (though I think he did not do it well,) they expressed great devotion ... His audience, (as I understand) was composed of native Irish and Highlanders (Richardson 1711: 16).
Richardson noted that many Highlanders had settled in deserted lands in Inishowen and Antrim after the Williamite conquest, and as they spoke no English, were supplied with Gaelic-speaking ministers from Scotland:
In the Northern Parts of the County of Antrim, which being also deserted by the Irish, upon the landing of the English army near Carrickfergus in 1689, many families from the Western Isles of Scotland, who understood no other language but Irish, settled there. At their first going over, they went to church; but not understanding the divine service celebrated there, they soon went over to the communion of the Church of Rome, only for the benefit of such exhortations, as the Popish priests usually give their congregations in Irish. And when they were asked the reason, why they did so? They said, ‘It was better to be of their religion, than none at all’ (Richardson 1711: 28-9).
Some of these Scottish settlers were Anglican. When Presbyterian government was established in Scotland in 1689, disaffected Scottish Episcopalians came to live in North Antrim (Ó Snodaigh 1995: 33). Cathal Dallat notes that Rasharkin was settled by Anglican Highlanders who petitioned the Bishop of Connor to provide them with a Gaelic-speaking minister (1994: 38-9).
Richardson noted that the Bishop of Down provided North Antrim Presbyterians with the Gaelic-speaking Reverend Archibald Mac Collum, who... has taken such effectual pains with the Irish and Highlanders of them, that by the blessing of God he has not only brought back numbers who had fallen off from our Church to that of Rome, but brought over several who were originally Irish Papists, and is every day gaining upon them (Richardson 1711: 14).
Scottish Gaelic speakers settled in many areas of the North. A souvenir booklet of Loughgall Presbyterian Church in Armagh notes the Scottish origin of the congregation, and continues, ‘ We glean that the Scotch settlers here still used the Gaelic of their native Scotland, a language spoken also by the Irish in the district. The Rev Archibald Macclane, who hailed from Argyle, and was a fluent speaker in the native tongue, preached in Loughgall meeting house in Gaelic in 1717’ (1954: 3-4).”
Source: www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/ForLearners/Prodhistory.pdf
You mention Maureen Chambers. I’d suggest it might be worth ringing her to see if she can assist. (If you have her address I’d write first to prepare her for the call, and perhaps so she can have a think about what she can remember. Cold calls put people off).
Another option might be to contact the churches. If they have Facebook pages (and many do) you could post genealogical queries there to see if anyone can help. Or to contact any Chambers etc in the area.
Finding where someone is buried in Ireland is often quite hard. In the US and in other jurisdictions the place of burial is often recorded on the death certificate. We don’t do that in Ireland, or in the UK. Perhaps we should. And family burial grounds can often be somewhere odd, nowhere near the church they attended all their lives. Our custom in Ireland in the 1800s and still today is to bury 3 days after death (nearly all denominations try to follow that custom). If you live in an urban area there is time to put a funeral notice in the local papers, which usually gave details of where the person was to be buried. However in rural areas the local paper tended to be a weekly publication and so there was little point posting a funeral notice there. They’d be buried before it was published. So tricky.
Les is correct in commenting that there may be no gravestones. However farmers usually could afford a gravestone. Labourers and most of the population couldn’t but some of your family were farmers or in other professions where their financial circumstances seem a bit above the average. I’d expect them to have gravestones. But of course I might be wrong. Plenty of gravestones have either eroded, or are illegible, crumbled or fallen flat. The modern litigious culture means that many people responsible for graveyards are very cautious if they see a gravestone leaning at all, and get workmen to drop them flat (sometimes face down) to prevent accidents and claims. Makes them rather hard to read.
You ask where all the family memorabilia went. I obviously don’t know but I can tell you that in my own family, my father had records, photos and letters going back 3 generations. However when he died, my mother decided (without discussing it with me) that they were of no interest to anyone and threw them all out. I suspect that my family is not the only one where that happened. Speaking from personal experience, when clearing a deceased person’s house, the relatives can get a bit intimidated by the sheer quantity of stuff they have gathered over the years. They start off trying to be discerning but ultimately just start throwing everything into waste bags and take them all to the local tip or charity shop. (There’s probably a lesson there. If you have things you treasure, put them in a special place and specify clearly in your will and elsewhere what you want done with them).
You ask about school attendance records. Findmypast have some of them (not every schools records have survived of course):
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/ireland-national-school-registers
You mention there is a William McElwaine in Lisgar today. Our policy in Ireland Reaching Out is not to give out details of living people. So I can’t directly give you his contact details. However I can confirm that the current phone book does list someone of that name in that townland. You might want to search & make contact yourself:
https://www.eirphonebook.ie/q/name/
There are 2 other McElwaines living nearby. Again I’d suggest a letter precedes any phone call. You are more likely to get help if you approach it that way.
You ask where I live. I live just outside Belfast, about 80 miles from Bailieborough. So not really close enough to help with local enquiries. However we do have an excellent volunteer who does live locally (Carmel O’Callaghan) and I can put you in touch with her, if you need local help.
