Hungerville or Hungiville / Buckley / Fitzgerald from Tralee

Michael,

The only baptism record I found on irishgenealogy.ie under the church records tab was for a Barbara Hungerville..

DOB - 18 Jan 1821

Address - Tralee

Parents - Maurice Hungerville & Elizabeth Buckly

Sponsors - Tobias Jordan & Margaret Grumell

The birth records for Tralee begin in 1772, but there are gaps. Are you sure about Michael's 1788 BD? Thirty three years between him and Barbara seem like a lot.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Sorry for the late reply - I just saw this message!

Thanks very much for the info. Yes, the dates do seem suspect.

If the 1766 birth date for Maurice was correct, he would have been:

22 when Michael was born

55 when Barbara was born

I will keep digging and look for the "tab" you found so I can make a copy of it,

I appreciate your work and reply very much! Again, sorry for the late acknowledgement, I'll have to check this site more often. I guess I expected to get a "reply alert" or something via email, but if I got one I certainly missed it.

Best regards,

Mike

Hi Mike!

I hope you see this reply sooner! :) I went back to the free site irishgenealogy.ie under the church records tab (they also have a civil records tab at the top of the page), but your Tralee record is older, so it is under the church one. I found your Michael when I spelled the surname Hungiville. Since the original record has not yet been copied on the site, here is the transcrption: Michael Hungiville, born 3 Oct 1813, address - Tralee, parents - Maurice Hungiville & Ellen Buckley, sponsors - Michael Hallinan & Ellen Kelleher. (I think Ellen is a nickname for Elizabeth in this case)

Regarding receiving reply alerts, the IRO site has recently been updated, but the old site had a box to check if you don't want to receive updates. Perhaps you selected that box because typically one does receive updates to the email address they registered under.

Hope this information is of use!

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Thank you for jolting me into reality! I had been working on my paternal side (writing a book on that, actually), but went back thru the file on the Hungerford side this morning.

YES, in our records, I have a reference to a baptism record of Michael that was October 3, 1813. Are you saying that was actually a birth date?

Either way, my 1788 birth estimate was waaay off. Thanks for that!

Yes, Hungiville was changed when the Hungerfords came to Ireland from England. There is a Hungerford, England (complete with the Hungerford Castle) but the family fell out of favor with the King and went to Ireland. Upon coming to America, some of the family changed the name back to Hungerford, but others considered that ... ummmm .... distasteful for lack of a better word ... and kept the Irish spelling, Hungiville. I actually have a U.S. Census that has two brothers living in the same house - one used Hungerford, one Hungiville ... seems like it went about 50/50 with the sons of Thomas & Hanna Shea here in America - both from Tonevane, Ireland outside of Tralee.

Yes, the investigator in Ireland (one Maureen Miller) who sent the baptism record I mentioned above to my uncle mentioned that Ellen was likely a mistake considering all the other children (a total of 6 not counting Michael) were listed under Maurice & "Elizabeth".

I wonder if there is any additional info available on Maurice & Elizabeth, perhaps birth or death certificates/records?

I am going to edit/correct my original comment.

I got a couple notices today about comments. It could have been that I just missed one (or it went to SPAM), or I deleted it thinking I'd remember to go back to double-check, and then, of course, forgot to. Thanks so much for your help!

Best regards,

Mike

Mike,

The birth date of Michael was probably his baptism date, sometimes those were the same day. If not, he could have been born one or two days earlier as it was customary to baptize a child ASAP back then. On the paid site, Roots Ireland, I found the marriage record for Maurice and Elizabeth - 12 Feb 1805. It is on the left side of the page, fifth from the bottom. The translation of Maurice's surname on this site was "Hunguval". If you type that spelling into the Irishgenealogy.ie site, it also shows up. There, they show that the sponsors were Philip Buckley & Roger Sheehy.

The record shows they married in the RC parish of Tralee - Maurice Hunguval & Elizabeth Buckley.

Regards,

Mike,

The baptism records for the RC parish of Tralee began in 1772. I think this record might be Elizabeth's due to the fact that her mother's maiden name was Sheehy, and one of her marriage witnesses was a Sheehy as well.

Elizabeth Buckly, 31 Oct 1783, parents = Daniel Buckly & Catherine Sheehy, RC parish Tralee, sponsors - Dermot Flynn & Janet Horgan. There was only one other Elziabeth Buckley born between 1772 and 1790, and she was born in 1777. So, by process of elimination, I think the 1783 record is her.

I could not locate a baptism record for Maurice....might be due to the variation of spelling of his surname. I even looked at the records for everyone named Maurice in a given time period in relation to his marriage, but did not locate one.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Awesome! Thanks so much for the marriage document and birthdate for Elizabeth Buckley Hungiville. Much appreciated, for sure!

So too your reference to the free irishgenealogy.ie site, for which I obviously need to become a proficient user!

Thanks so much, and I hope you have a great weekend!

Best regards,

Mike

Hi Carolyn,

You've been so much help already I shy from asking you another question that has arisen concerning a Thomas Hungerford, born in 1820 (pretty sure of that year) in (I think ...) Tonevane, just down the road from Tralee. Thomas married Joanna (possibly Hannah or Hanora) Shea, who was born in the same area in 1827.

I am trying to figure out who Thomas' parents were. I thought he was the son of Maurice Hungerford (various spellings) & Elizabeth Buckley, but I have no proof of that and he wasn't on the list of their children in the paper records I have. I tried using the irishgenealogy.ie site to no avail. Any ideas? Thanks so much!

Best regards,

Mike

Hi Mike,

No problem, I am happy to assist. Do you know the year Thomas and Joanna were married? My Roots Ireland subscription has RC parish of Tralee from 1774, so their record should be there. Oftentimes, no father's name is listed on that site, but then I can look on irishgenealogy.ie which usually does show a father...never a mother though. So, please give me a date range to search.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Nope, I don't know what year they were married. But I do have some notes indicating they may have been married in or near Killarney, but that seems odd since most all other info on this family came from the area surrounding Tralee. But Killarney is also in County Kerry ...

At this point, the only thing I am quite confident of in terms of Ireland info is Thomas's birth-date (1820) and that he was married to Hanna Shea (possibly Hanora or Joanna and last name possibly O'Shea). I am going to put in an official search for Thomas' death certificate here in the states, which - if it exists - should have his mother & father's name on it.

Based on Thomas' birthdate, A good estimated time period for the marriage would be, roughly, 1838-1850.

Also, while his headstone spells the name "Hungerford", as we have discussed, there were multiple different spellings of the family name back in Ireland. Indeed, three of Thomas' sons here in the states chose to spell their last name "Hungiville", which - if I had to guess - is the way Thomas' father likely spelled it in back in Ireland.

Don't know if this helps, but here is Thomas and Hannah's monument in the St. Elizabeth Cemetery in Smethport, PA, along with whatever additional information is available on there:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/57478037/thomas-hungerford

He and some of this family came to America in 1851. Thomas would have been ~31 at that time, so quite likely married in Ireland. However, his youngest child (Mary Hungerford Hussey) was born in 1953 in Smethport, PA. So, it is conceivable he and Hannah got married here in America ... which obviously means there were be no marriage record in Ireland. I am chasing that angle down too. That said, it is interesting (at least to me) to note there are no other Shea's in either the Smethport or Sartwell cemeteries here in the states, so my bet is they did marry in Ireland. There were Sheas all over the place in County Kerry. Thanks so much!

Best regards,

Mike

Mike,

So I found some good records for you. First, I doubt they married in the RC parish of Killarney because as was the custom for that time, a couple married in the bride's parish. I found Honora's baptism record: Honora O'Shea, 16 Nov 1827, residence - Toneavane, parents - John O'Shea & Mary Fitzmaurice, sponsors - Michael Irwin & Honora Fitzgerald.

I cannot locate their marriage record, but it would be roughly a year or two before the birth of their first daughter....here is her information:

Mary O'Hungeville, 24 Mar 1848, Tonevane, parents - Thomas O'Hungeville & Honora Shea, sponsors - James Harrington & Bridget Hungeville

Second daughter - Honora Hungaville, 22 Sept 1850, Tonevane, parents - Thomas O'Hungaville & Honora Shea, sponsors - Thomas Shea & Ellen Shea

This family is on Ancestry if you have an account. These two daughters must have died either prior to emigration or at least prior to the 1860 US census where it shows their child Mary is seven years old and born in Pennsylvania. In your above message, you mention that Mary is his youngest daughter..on the Ancestry tree I saw, the Barranco tree, Mary is the second born of nine children. Is this your family?? This same tree shows Thomas died in 1893, and has that find a grave you mention attached to his profile. I'm not sure a death cert from that year will reveal his parent's names....no cert showed up on Ancestry. In Griffith's Valuation records from 1858ish, there is a John Shea as a tenant in Tonavane, but I did not find any Hungerville or derivations of that name in the town land.

One slight correction...on Honora's baptism record, Thomas is listed as Hungaville, not O'Hungaville.

Regards,

Mike,

You probably already have these records for Thomas and Hanora's children, but I thought I'd include them in case you did not...

Cornelius Hungerford, 9 Oct 1808, address - Tralee, parents - Maurice Hungerford & Elizabeth Buckly, sponsors -Daniel Hanifin & Ellen Slattery

Catherine Hungerford, 10 Oct 1811, address - Tralee, parents - Maurice Hungerford & Elizabeth Buckly, sponsors - James Honeen & Mary Sommers

I know that you are trying to fit Thomas into this family, but it is challenging given the many variations of this surname. I have never seen so many derivations of a name as I have for this family. HIs first born son being named Maurice would indicate that he followed the Irish naming tradition of naming the first born son after his own father. The second born son was named after the mother's father according to tradition.

Have you been able to trace Cornelius, Catherine, Barbara or Michael after their births? Those leads could help you tie Thomas into this family.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Once again, thanks very much for all the info. I do not have an Ancestry account (yet). If these records have the original documents:

1. Honora's baptism (with parents listed)
2. Birth/baptism records of daughters Mary & Honora

would it be possible for you to download them or take a screen shot of them? If they are already digitized (i.e. just simple text), no need as I have all these great comments from you that I can catalog and cite.

The information on Thomas & Honora matches the dates/relations we have here, so I am sure that is the right couple.

Yes, I am trying to find proof that this Thomas Hungerford (m. to Honora O'Shea) is, indeed, the son of Maurice Hungiville (m. to Elizabeth Buckley). It appears most probable, but I'd like to see some proof. Many of the Pennsylvania death certificates have the parents listed because "Mother" and "Father" are specific entries on the state form (as is their place of birth). The big issue with some of the earlier deaths (i.e. before say 1900), is that the DCs simply were not filed for rural Irish families (such as this one is) because they were many times very private and/or many times far away from any "official". But, I have to search for it because I have yet to make that definitive tie-in that "my Thomas" was son of Maurice & Elizabeth.

Honestly, at this point, I am getting a bit confused - my tree above Thomas is marked up a lot over the past year or so. So, I need to modify the existing tree above Thomas & Honora, add in the new confirmed info, and put question marks on what I need to work on (I do know my highest priority is the "tie-in" proof). This may take some time as my plate is really full (I am currently trying to finish writing a book on the history of the Fitzsimmons family from Ireland, taxes (yuck!), and such). But it is winter, the weather is poor here, and I have plenty of coffee and hot tea ... so ... I may be back to bother you some more in the near future.

Meantime, THANK YOU so much. The generosity of your time and expertise is very, very much appreciated. I say that because once I finish the Fitzsimmons book I will likely write a history of my Hungerford side too. So, I am really trying to dot the i's and cross the t's so long after I am gone someone won't find my information suspect (or worse, outright incorrect!).

Yes, the Hungxxxx name game is really something! Here, it was a battle between those proud of their aristocratic history (close to the King, castle, etc.) and those that were more proud of their Irish heritage. Add to that Gaelic and the frequent misspelling by officials in migration/immigration/ship log etc. etc. and it is really something else. Here it boiled down to Hungerford vs Hungiville. There in County Kerry, it apparently was on a whole other level lol.

Best regards,

Mike

p.s. - I hope to visit Ireland this year and would very much like to take you to lunch or dinner or a pint of Guinness (or whatever) as a small token of my appreciation for your hard work. I have no idea what part of Ireland you are located (and certainly not asking you to post your address on here!), but if you are anywhere near counties Mayo, Kerry, Meath, or Dublin, a short rendezvous may be relatively simple and workable for us both.

Hi Mike,

Regarding the original documents for those three births, they have not been imaged yet. I found all three record transcriptions on irishgenealogy.ie under the church records tab, and if you pull up Honora O'Shea's, for example, at the bottom of the record is shows "book number, page, entry number, record identifier, and under that is says "the church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged". Indeed, when you look at the church records on registers.nli.ie (Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI), you will find they are not there. I did take a look! There might be a genealogy centre in Kerry that you can contact to locate the originals...I do not have that information. Another idea to maybe locate the originals is on IRO look at the other postings for Tralee where others have asked questions about that parish...just put in Tralee where it says "filter by parish" at the top of the message board...a bit of a long shot. At this time, the best records for you to have are the transcriptions which you can pull up from the irishgenealogy.ie site.

So, when it comes to the trees on Ancestry for this family, you have to proceed with caution as I found a few errors with just a brief look. The trouble with Ancestry trees is that one user adds information without any proof, and then other users add the same incorrect information without records. For example on this Barranco tree I mention, the user has a census record from Wales in 1891 showing Thomas lived there...that is impossible as he was in Pennsylvania. Additionally, they show Hannah Shea a born in 1829 in Cork which is wrong too. I have attached a screenshot of two tree profiles so you can see what I mean, about the Wales information anyhow. NVM...I could not attach the image because the file was not in the jpg format...my iphone does HEIC photos which drives me crazy. I believe you can get a free trial subscription to Ancestry...not sure how it works though. Also, I have a "world" membership to see records everywhere...they might just give a US only trial membership. The reason that the user put Cork (1829) birth for Hannah is due to the fact that the Kerry record has not been imaged, and someone else named Hannah Shea from Cork popped up in the search, and they just went with it. But it makes NO sense. Some researchers are not aware of other resources, and they only use Ancestry records which were translated back in the 1970s. For example, the Roots Ireland site continually adds records to this day, and has many records not found via Ancestry....they are a paid site though.

Finally, as much as I'd love to get together in Ireland, you'd have to come West to meet up as I live in San Juan Capistrano, CA. I love doing genealogy research as all 8 of my great grandparents emigrated to the US. I too have Kerry (Shanaknock, Ballymacelligot) and Mayo (Binghamstown, Kilmore Erris) roots, plus Clare, Cork, Sligo, and Roscommon.

I'll keep an eye out for that birth record for Thomas and the marriage record for him and Hanora....they should be there!

Regards,

Mike,

In my last ditch effort to discover more, I Googled "Hungerfords Kerry, Ireland", and a web page came up from 2004 done on genealogy.com by one Amy Amidei who has done quite a bit of research. There is lots of information you might find helpful...I'm getting a bit dizzy making sense of it, but the bottom line is Thomas is the son of Maurice O'Hungaville & Mary Cavanagh. Their marriage record is on irishgenealogy.ie - they married on 11 Feb 1834...they were both from Toneavane...no father's names are given. This site by Amy states that their four children were Mary, Nora, Bridget, and Thomas....probably the one you are looking for. You might want to check Amy's page as there is a lot there...she even has some DNA work, but this was back in 2004. Anyhow, that's all I have...

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

I just read your email and - one again - very much appreciate your efforts. I believe the primary reason both our heads are swimming is due to the various spellings of the last name (both in Ireland *and/or* here in America.

Your email was ironic because I was trying to update my family tree this morning, got confused and a headache, and was just about to send you the link to a geneology.com webpage by that very same Amy Amidei. I believe this webpage was the source for my very first comment on this entire thread (before I edited it):

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/hungerville/4/

Now, this geneology.com webpage, authored by Amy Amidei, says:

QUOTE

"Thomas Hungerville b. 1820 Killarney, Cty Kerry, Ireland d. 09-23-1893 in Smethport, McKean Cty, PA.

His parents Michael Hungerville and Hannah Fitzgerlad(thomas immigrated aboard the "Guy Mannering" from Liverpool, England and his wife and children came after 1851.

He married Hannah Shea she was b. bet 1829-1830 in Tralee, County Kerry, Ireland. The married 11-03-1846 at St. John the Baptist Church in Castlegregory, County Kerry, Ireland. Died 1891 in Smethport, PA"

UNQUOTE

Now, here are a few things I know to be factual (from direct family information on this end)

1. This Thomas, and his wife Hannah Shea are, indeed, my great-great grandparents. This information is 100% correct.
2. The list of their children, on this webpage, without a doubt, includes my great-grandfather (Edmund Shea Hungerford who m. Mary Ann Cantwell). This information is also 100% correct (my mother talked alot about her grandmother and the Cantwells). Note the significance of my great-grandfather's middle name "Shea").

So, while there are a few obvious typos on THIS Amy authored webpage, the main person I want to focus on (now) is THIS Thomas, because I know, without a doubt, that he is my great-great grandfather. The big question, which I don't have proof of, other than mentioned on THIS webpage (by Amy) is: who are his parents?

THIS "Amy webpage" indicates his parents were: Michael Hungerville and Hannah Fitzgerlad (should be "Fitzgerald").

Note the spelling difference between his reputed father on this webpage ("Hungerville") and Thomas' headstone spelling ("Hungerford").

As I mentioned before in this thread, this difference in spelling is totally possible and not surprising, at all, because THIS Thomas had sons that spelled the name two ways - neither of which was "Hungerville"(!): "Hungerford" & "Hungiville".

Soooo ... if you are still with me and I haven't put you to sleep or blown your mind, I can boil this down to first focus on one thing:

Can we find a record in Ireland that proves who this Thomas Hungerford's parents were? We should use two key considerations: his birthdate (1820) and realizing that his (and/or his father's name) could be spelled, in Ireland, in any of three ways:

Hungiville

Hungerville

Hungerford

That is, it is quite possible that this Thomas' name in the Irish records matches his father's spelling (Hungerville) or could have been even been spelled Hungiville or Hungerford. That is why focusing on his birthdate is so important. I have a high confidence in his birthdate (at least on this end, and hopefully it matches records in Ireland. Note that Amy's webpage does have it correct (1820).

Now, I need a drink ... unfortunately, it's only 10am here ...

I will send you a snippet (soon) of my family tree that will hopefully make it easier to visualize this. Thank you again very much!

Best regards,

Mike

p.s. - if we prove Amy's indication wrt Thomas' parents, then my very first post is valid:

Hi Carolyn,

I have attached a snippet from my family tree.

A dot between two lines means marriage, with the line going down to a box is the couple's children

As you can see, I have put ??????? between the box with "My Thomas" (on the bottom) and his reported parents.

There is no point going up the tree any further until I can either verify this or prove other parents.

Thanks so much! And there is no hurry with this as I am 100% swamped over here with a very full plate.

Speaking of plates ... time for breakfast ... or, I guess I can wait as we are closing in on lunchtime now.

Best regards & thank you,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I was confused at first when I saw your tree, and where you placed Thomas (1820)...I understand your reasoning, but as it stands, it looks like he is the son of Michael Hungerville & Hannah Fitzgerald. For clarity, it might be better to put him in the box above under his "maybe" brother Michael. Anyhow, this must not be a current diagram as no other children are shown of Maurice and Elizabeth, and I think that Honora Shea's parents are incorrect.

On another note, I did find another child for Maurice Hungerville and Elizabeth Buckley...John, born 26 Jan 1806. This is the strategy I used to find him, but unfortunately, it did not work to find the baptism record for Thomas nor his marriage record.

The irishgenealogy.ie site has a wildcard search...try this....go to the church records tab, leave the first name box blank, then type "hu*g*ll* in the last name box, type Tralee for location, and 1800 to 1850 for year range (or any range you want). As you will seen, many variations of the surname will appear, and while you are not searching for siblings of Maurice, I believe those appear in marriages and birth records. A notable one is the Thomas Hungeville & Mary Brown marriage in 1813. With the wildcard search, you can put in any combo of letters and asterisks. I did this a second time with "hun*g*v", and got the same results...thought something new would pop up.

Keep searching! You never know where a record will turn up!

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, my tree shows that Thomas (1820) is the son of Michael Hungerville and Hanna Fitzgerald.

That matches the Amy Amidei post on genealogy.com that I referenced in my previous email:

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/hungerville/4/

Correct? Note also that Thomas (1820) is grouped in a box with his verified (on my end) brothers & sisters. So he is certainly in the right box.

Maybe it wasn't apparent in my post, but with how confusing everything was with the names, I took a step back from my original post and trying to simplify.

Right now, all I am trying to do is find verification, without a doubt, that Thomas (1820) is, indeed, the son of Michael Hungerville & Hanna Fitzgerald as listed on Amy's post.

I don't have this proof in my records or our family's records and, as a result, I am relying on Amy's post to be factual without any proof. I'd like to find the proof.

Until I find that proof, I am not concerned about anything on the tree *above* Thomas (1820)'s supposed parents (Michael Hungerville & Hanna Fitzgerald) until I have proof that they are, indeed, his parents. Otherwise, I am just chasing my tail with all the name changes. One I can peg 1820, I can proceed higher up the tree.

So, if you can find proof that Thomas (1820) is indeed the son of Michael Hungerville & Hanna Fitzsimmons, then I can remove the ?????? on the tree snippet I sent you, and go back to trying to fill in the boxes above his parents. Hope this helps and makes sense. Thanks!

Best regards,

Mike

Hi Mike,

So, I was on the wrong track searching for the parents of Thomas (1820), as I was going off what you said on 19 Jan - "Yes, I am trying to find proof that this Thomas Hungerford (m. to Honora O'Shea) is, indeed, the son of Maurice Hungerville (m. to Elizabeth Buckley)." If Michael was born in 1813, he could not have had a child in 1820, your Thomas. Please clarify if I have this wrong. How can Thomas be the child of Michael & Hannah Fitzgerald?

Another suggestion I have, although not everyone is keen on submitting their DNA, is to get an Ancestry account, submit your DNA test to them. After that, you will see matches to those who match your DNA.....4th to 5th cousin level or higher is what you might see....IF any descendants of the other children of Michael have submitted their DNA. I recently made a huge discovery about my own great great grandfather from Roscommon after I found 3rd and 4th cousin DNA matches on Ancestry. I now have a entirely new mother and siblings for him that I did not have when I began this search in 2020. His name was John, but all the translations I could find translated it to Joan....that was my problem.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, it is confusing. Not helping the fact is that in addition to all the different spellings of the last name, first names like Maurice, Michael, and Thomas were popular in every generation.

I hope the attached snippet will make things simpler. This snippet, other than listing Michael & Hanna as Thomas (1820)'s parents (which is what we are trying to verify from the Amy post and where the question markets are), is all verified. Note I have removed the Maurice Hungerville/Elizabeth Buckley couple because I don't feel it is verified. That is, I don't even know - for sure - who Thomas (1820)'s parents are yet.

So that is all I am focused on right now: are Are Michael Hungiville and Hanna Fitzgerald the parents of Thomas (1820) as Amy's post says.

If not, who are?

I am so sorry if I added to the confusion and wasted your time with some previous posts. My only defense is the number of name changes, the fact they were different on both sides of the Atlantic, and the prevelance of kids named Maurice, Michael, and Thomas throughout nearly all the families. And all the unconnected info I have on this end.

For instance, I have a handwritten note, from Ireland, that says

Maurice Hungerville (Hunguval) married Elizabeth Buckley in 1805 in Tralee. And on another page it list their children - but Thomas is not one of them on the list. Could he have simply been left off? Possible. But Catherine (1811) and Barbara (1821) are listed, and Thomas would have fallen between them. So why would documentation for him not be there like all the others?

Regardless, it is quite possible that this couple had Thomas in 1820 and that Amy's post is simply incorrect. However, I can see nothing in my uncle's exchanges with Ireland that specifically says who Thomas (1820)'s parents are. This is why I am so focused on it.

My thinking is that Amy must have gotten the information she posted from a trusted source or else she wouldn't have (or at least shouldn't have) posted it. Question is - what is that source, can we find it, and is it verifiable?

Best regards,

Mike

Oh, and congrats on your recent huge discovery!! :D

Hi Carolyn,

Darn it ... I forget to delete Thomas (1820)'s brothers & sisters ... without knowing for sure who his parents are, the siblings go out the window too. Please use this snippet as all I know, for sure, on this branch. Thanks, and I apologize for making this so hard on you!

Best regards,

MIke

Hi Mike,

I am in no way bothered at all with all the questions, etc....I will keep searching for the elusive Thomas (1820). However, I will restate my belief that there is NO way Michael Hunger...can be Thomas's father because Michael was born in 1813 as you know. Michael was seven years old in 1820. There is most likely another Thomas who is their child, just not the 1820 one. I do believe there are such things as lost records or records never recorded. Cannot say where Amy found her information....I don't believe that Roots Ireland was around then...they have Tralee marriage records, but no birth records. That is why for birth records, one must rely on irishgenealogy.ie.

Also, I am not finding any marriage record for Michael & Hannah Fitzgerald. Did they marry in Ireland?

Regards,

Hey Mike,

I just looked on Ancestry, and maybe this is the problem....there is a tree, with no records attached...at least not yet. I can look for some. But this person shows Michael Hungiville and Hannah Fitzgerald much older. This is NOT the 1813 Michael. They give his BD as about 1785 and Hannah's as well. Their children are: Bridget 1804, Maurice 1810, Mary 1812, Elizabeth, 1814, Catherine 1816, and Thomas 1820. If it pans out....this is him. I was looking much later given the Michael 1813 person.

Regards,

Hi Carolyn,

Well, wrt the Michael Hungerville issue, I think it is best for us - for the sake of simplicity - to throw away most ALL of this thread and to, from now on, concentrate - ONLY - on who Thomas (1820)'s parents are, and by starting firstly with Amy's post which, most all of which *was* accurate and that matched my records. That is significant.

But, the *only* thing on Amy's post that I cannot corroborate on my end is Amy's claim that Thomas (1820's) parents were Michael Hungiville & Hanna Fitzgerald. And we must be careful that we are not confusing which "Michael Hung(x)" we are talking about - because there are multiple Michaels with multiple spellings and multiple ages.

So, all that said, I think we should focus *solely* on that issue and forget everything else in this thread (for now) and I say that for several reasons:

1. There are many different spellings of the last name, which can quickly lead to false trails.
2. There are many different Michaels, Maurices, and Thomas' within nearly every branch of Hung(x)'s in County Kerry, and it is very easy to confuse them.
3. I have a couple pages of Hung(x) information that my Uncle got from sources in Ireland. If you think this thread is confusing, you should try adding all the Maurice's, Michael's, and Thomas' from what I have here (with many different spellings on both sides of the Atlantic!).

Bottom line is this: it is very easy to mistake one Michael Hung(x) (or Maurice, or Thomas ...) for another. It is also very easy to skip a generation because it was common for Irish couples in those days to start having kids quite young and to continue having them into their late 30's and even early 40's. That makes errors in generation "hoping" relatively easy to make.

So, for now, I think it best to focus on either proving, or disproving, one thing: Amy's assertion that Thomas (1820)'s parents were Michael Hungiville & Hanna Fitzgerald. And then go from there.

It might seem as though we have not made any progress here, but honestly it has helped me very much to focus on this single issue before getting to confused with stuff higher-up on the tree that might be both incorrect and a total waste of time if we don't get Thomas (1820)'s parents correctly identified. I hope this makes sense!

Best regards,

Mike

Best regards,

Mike

Hi - oops! I just noticed you left a second msg ...

"I just looked on Ancestry, and maybe this is the problem....there is a tree, with no records attached...at least not yet. I can look for some. But this person shows Michael Hungiville and Hannah Fitzgerald much older. This is NOT the 1813 Michael. They give his BD as about 1785 and Hannah's as well. Their children are: Bridget 1804, Maurice 1810, Mary 1812, Elizabeth, 1814, Catherine 1816, and Thomas 1820."

YES - now this seems to be very important (at least in my mind) !!

Note the children you listed there are the same as I had on my tree for Michael/Hanna before I deleted them in the last snip I sent you (look at the one before that). I deleted them because I didn't have documentation proving them and cannot - for the life of me - remember where I got the names from in the first place (!).

Also, note the children's names you left in this msg do *not* match up with the children of Maurice & Elizabeth Bentley, for which I DO have records of (from Ireland, in my Uncle's correspondence). There was no Thomas in those records.

So, the questions now include: where did that ancestry tree come from? Was it just based on DNA, records, or a mixture of both?

Do you know if the genealogy.com website enables users to contact other users directly? It might be worth my time to join just to contact Amy directly.

Anyhow, I know this has been quite a battle with me, and that I have confused you and myself (more than once). I just want you to know how much you have helped my understanding and motivated me to really focus on direct proof. This genealogy work is kind of a brick-by-brick process ... building on what you already know is 100% verifiable (or very nearly so with a high degree of confidence). So, thanks again - very much.

Best regards,

Mike

p.s. - honestly, I must tell you that I wasn't even working on the Hungerford side of my family because I am currently writing a book on the other side. I stumbled over your comment (the one I didn't see/read for months ...) and then jumped right in. I probably should focus on the Fitzsimmons book or I'll likely do a poor job on both! lol ... so, if I don't respond for a while, it means I am working on the book and don't want to respond until I can thoroughly investigate everything I have on this end before doing so. Thanks again Carolyn, you've been both patient and brilliant!

Hi,

Good luck with everything...my last hair brained thought is this....are you certain they are from Tralee?? The parish baptism and marriage records for the RC parish of Tralee start in 1770 and go until 1900. If Michael H. & Hannah Fitzgerald's marriage took place in Tralee, it should show up. Additionally, whoever their children were would also show. I don't think that there could be that many missing records. Yes, searching for the Hungerford/ville variations is difficult, but one can search using Hannah (Johanna, Hanora) Fitzgerald as well. I did that, to no avail.

Don't mean to send you on a wild goose change, but there are Hungerford birth and marriage records in Cork to take a look at. I typed in Hungerford in the surname field, then, Cork in the area, and then I put in 1795-1830. If you do that, you might make some connections. There are three Thomas Hungerfords born...1816, 1817, 1818. I'll let you explore that possibility.

Regards,

Good morning Carolyn,

Thanks for the encouragement and all your helpful data and suggestions. Yes, the records in Tralee have certainly been a treasure trove for us (although sooo confusing due to the various name spellings....), especially as compared to those in County Mayo, which has been a total dead-end (at least for the Fitzsimmons name).

Yes, I am fairly confident my ancestors are from the Tralee/Tonevane area and the Dingle Peninsula. The names Tralee and Dingle came down to me thru my Mom who got it from her Dad and grandparents (shown on the snip as Edmund Shea Hungerford, son of Thomas (1820)). The documents my uncle got from Ireland (St. John's on Castle St, Tralee) identified at least 4 different Hungerville/Hungiville families (two in Tonevane, two in Tralee). I am quite certain all four families were related and that Thomas (1820) most likely (but not for certain ...) came from one of them.

That said, once I have more time, I will certainly take a look into Cork as you suggested. I will also see if I can contact Amy Amidei and find the Ancestry tree you mentioned. All are good leads and If I get proof of Thomas (1820)'s parents, I'll post it on here just to close the loop.

Meantime, thanks again for all your help and I hope you have a happy, healthy, and - of course - a most prosperous 2025!

Best regards,

Mike