Robert HARRIS born Drogheda 1847 died Auckland NZ 1923. Parents: Joseph HARRIS and Susannah MCCONNELL. Very little known of the Drogheda family before Robert's birth. Any details gratefully accepted. Robert and his sister Janetravelled alone to NZ arrived in 1865. Jane may have been a half sister. The name BASSIERE is associated with the family possibly by Joseph's first marriage.
Hi Jeanette
I am busy over the next few days but here are some sites to get you going. I also want to send your message to 2 other people with more local knowledge.
I am assuming the people are Protestant. The name Brassiere is found on this site in Collon about 8 miles from ?rogheda. See http://www.jbhall.freeservers.com ;
Also recently Protestant records for St Peters went online here. See http://ireland.anglican.org/about/185
That should give you something to go on and I will get back again Monday or Tuesday.
Regards
Pat
Hi Again
Irish civil records began in 1864 for all but Protestant marriages began in 1845, prior to this you are reliant on church records and for the birth of the parents the years can be sketchy getting back to when they were born. Consequently we have to use what records are available from other sources.
I have looked on Find My Past for records of Harris and McConnell and cannot see a marriage or birth even your Roberts birth which you appear to have found.
I looked in Griffiths Valuation for 1854 and there only 2 Harris entries and only 1 in Drogheda see http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ This was a major valuation of land and only the head of hte house was recorded, there are 11 McConnels recorded with about 4 in the Drogheda area but none in St. Peters Parish, also with the Tithe Apploment books here http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp done between 1823 and 1838, there are no Harris names.
I did find some Harris names in Meath close to Drogheda with a number in Drumcondra or now Drumconrath about 12 miles away.
A little better with Bassiere which is most unusal but got hits all over the country but not in Great numbers, Lewis Bassiere was in the militia based in Collon about 8 miles away, is it possible they were military people and if so the previously given site for Louth should list them somewhere. Also I understand there is a book in the offing about the Louth militia based in Collon.
Regards
Pat
BIG THANKS Pat, your help is great, using your guidance I have dug up a few more helpful tips. There is a lot available now.
I searched the parish birth records and found children for Robert HARRIS and Susannah McCONNELL. Because one chap had an unusual christian name, Clemence, I tracked him to NZ, his mother and siblings came too in 1877 after Joseph died in Drogheda. Joseph HARRIS was a grocer in Peter St.
Susannah's step-son Lewis Bassiere Harris married well and probably supported the family. She died in 1902 therefore had lived here 25 years, a fact none of us knew. No wonder we couldn't find her in Ireland.
Earlier today, I checked the tithe records, a John BASSIERE was in Collon, Louth paying a very large amount for 1824, 40/- to Lord Oriel. It is quite an unusal name so more likely to reap a close strike in time. The Jane I am looking for would be born early 1800s...fingers crossed.
I have applied for Suannah HARRIS'S death certificate, it should direct me to her kinfolk.
I know she is my grandfather's mother from his death certificate in 1923.
The hunt is enjoyable, thanks again for your input. I know my English, Irish and Scottish friends think we 'colonials' are a bit too obsessed with ancestry, are we? It is fun to know one's roots, it adds history in what is our very young country. It also gives us a great list of places to visit when we come over.
Jeanette
Hello Jeanette,
My name is Sue Murphy, I live in Hobart Tasmania and I am the great grandaughter of Clemence HARRIS one of the people in your post. I have been looking for Joseph and Susannah Harris, Clemence's parents and was blown away by your post stating that Susannah came out to New Zealand with other members of her family after Joseph died in 1877. I have tried to get a death certificate for her in NZ without luck, so I assumed that she must have come to Australia with Clemence and his wife, Susan Bache. I have found a death index listing for her in Singleton NSW in 1902.
I hadn't know of the existance of Robert Harris or that Joseph had been married twice, so have not done any reaearch on them, but would love to talk to you about them. Are you in NZ or Australia? I know its been almost a year since your post but I hope you reply soon, so excited to have found you.
Kindest Regards
Sue
Hi Sue
Grand APOLOGIES for not getting back sooner. I had almost a year off genealogy.
We also changed e mail accounts so I would not have been posted. That or my memory has faded, happens with age.
I am back in NZ after 10 years in Australia, I have dual citizenship one foot in each.
It was so interesting to find Susannah and a few of the reles in the Waikato NZ, then I found the information about the ship they travelled on. There is a descrepancy with a listing for Wm Haris, one ref I saw has him buried in Australia, in fact there is evidence of him being beside his mother in Taupiri Cemetery. I have yet to get there to actually BE there if you know what I mean but it is on the list of things to do and is in fact imminent.
There was a large HARRIS reunion in Auckland 18months ago, I didn't attend but gained a lot of leads from the helpful folk involved.
Would love to chat.
J.
Jeanette
Welcome back indeed, your post got me to reexamine my reply and I have a tiny bit more, checked this site for a Harris civil marriage between 1845 and 1850 and got one for a Martha Harris in 1847, a civil cert should be available if you wish to see it I can post details. http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ This site is free but the church records are not on it yet fully, althought the previous site I sent has them anyway.
I have recevied a copy of a 2005 article on the Louth Militia and have scanned it in, not the best scan you will ever see but readable, there is no mention of your names but it will add a bit of colour on the life and where they were posted in Ireland and UK. As I am not sure about copywrite if you email me at stpeters@irelandxo.com I will send it to you.
Over the summer there was a series of history walks and talks in the town including one on Peter Street and Shop Street, needless to say that is the one I missed, in my defence the heavens opened that evening and you would not send a dog out.
Anyway the talk is usually available in print so if interested I will obtain a copy for you if available.
Also on Facebook there is a Drogheda Down Memory Lane page with old photos of the town, now there are some really old but others think the 1990s is old so a search is required. You have to join as the site is moderated but well managed.
The last two grocery shops on Peter Street closed in the last 10 years or so.
Regards
Pat
Thanks Pat
How I would love to be back over there exploring now I have more info. It's a possibility I hold on to.
I do appreciate your input, it is invaluable. Tomorrow I will follow up on your latest.
We are heading in to spring now which is energizing, new info will add to the buzz.
I did find a gazette entry for Joseph HARRIS at number 19 Peter St.
Cheers
J.
Hi Jeanette
I was in Drogheda on Tuesday and 19 is now a well know public house, it appears it changed hands in 1900 and got a liquor license and became a grocery / bar and is still going strong today as a bar, I took some photos if you are interested as the exterior is still the same but obviously painted differently, a bit of history here, http://www.clarkesofdrogheda.com/history/
Actually if you look at the gallery the pictures of the exterior as as good if not better than mine. It is also about 50 meters from the Protestant church where they probably went.
Regards
Pat
Hi Pat
Has anyone told you lately that you are Treasure? Thanks is less that adequate at times. When I was in Drogheda in 1999 I knew only that my great-grandfather was born there, and came to NZ 1865, nothing else. Hence my holiday photos of Drogheda are scant indeed. I think I was in Peter St but not by design. The enduring memory is that Drogheda was my first night in Ireland which included a massive, full Irish breakfast at the B&B next morning!
I can see only the internal shots on the Clarkes web site but will keep trying. It flagged something about a problem feed. You have me back in my HARRIS-history brain today and tempted to set aside time to do an article for the TIMELINE as requested some weeks ago on an XO e mail. At first I thought there may not be anyone left over there who either is related to the NZ connections, or know that they are, however for future reference, if I log the information it is there. I do think a few of my great grandfather's siblings or half siblings did remain in Louth so I will offer what I have. Do you think that resident Irish folk are as keen on searchign for their roots as we colonials are?
On a family commercial note, Joseph Harris of 19 Peter St store fame, had two of his sons take up similar roles in NZ. I have lovely photos of my great-grandfather Robert outside his general stores, Lewis Bassiere Harris (his half-brother) was Licensee of numerous ale houses, their sister Jane married a well-known brewer. His son Clemence left NZ for Australia and settled. (see Sue's post above.) A grandson was a timber merchant in NZ. This was in the early days of NZ settlement, we have such a young European history. I know some of the boys were active in the Orange Lodge, photos of men in sashes.
In the very early days of research I found an entry for L.B. Harris being born in Colon (sic), the person listing had assummed Colon, Panama, a fairly wild goose chase for awhile but interesting. I had a huge laugh when I realised the Collon connection, then the pieces started joining up.
Your work is much appreciated.
With gratitude,
Jeanette
Hi Jeanette
I attach two photos of 19, plus the view down the hill which you have seen, the church across the road is the Protestant St Peters, you may have actually visited the RC St Peters complete with Saints Olivers head, I am not a fan.
If the photos come out too large you can play around with them to get the correct size.
Hope I am not overloading you with photos, there used to be a Collon history web site but it appears to have moved to Facebook if you want to look it up, they were very helpful to a Canadian lady who has visited twice. Collon was the home of the Fosters and you can read a little of the history here. http://www.collonhouse.com/ ;
Now I better go as if I become more of a treasure I am sure I will be brought to earth by my ohter half.
All the very best,
Pat
PS You can stll ask me questions, I see on the Louth Genealogical site a number of Harris hits and if I discover a grave in St Peters (they are all listed in various journals) I will photo it for you assuming it is clear.
Hi Jeanette,
I was greatly excited to get your reply and my apologies for not getting back to you, but there is so much to tell I didn't quite know where to start. I guess firstly I did eventually find great grandmother Susannah in NZ and a death certificate so I was interested to know that William is with her in the cemetary there as there was a William Harris in NSW. I also found the passenger information for them to NZ.
Last year I did a big research on Joseph Harris because he had been the 'brick wall' in my family tree. I found out so much and then even more when I was somehow directed to your post 'Harris to NZ'. The story handed down here was that he; Joseph had been a Minister of religion, had 22 children and his wife died aged 43.
Well I had found out that wasn't true, that in fact he was a Grocer and Publican in Peter Street just donw the road from St Peter's Church of Ireland. (The picture of the pub is great! by the way, I had had a look on Google Earth but its been done up which is nice). I had Susannah's name as his wife but no other information. I later found she was Glasgow born and I have her parents names. Children started to be found mostly from the Ireland parish online site but also from Joseph's Will. That was a great relevation as he had left money to 3 daughters, Susannah, Rebecca and Sarah and 3 sons, Alexander, William and Clemence. I'd also found he had 2 children, John and Elizabeth who died in infancy.
I did not find out about Robert his first born to Susannah, or Lewis and Jane and his first wife Jane Bassiere until I found your information. Those children would have all been in NZ by the time he died on March 12, 1877. (Maybe why they weren't in his Will). The three daughters above all turn up in later Census records as living in northern Ireland. Susannah married John Beatty in 1877. They had three children during their marriage. She died on November 5, 1916, in Mullingar, Westmeath, Ireland, at the age of 67. Rebecca was born in 1852 and married, and Sarah in 1853. So that was 11 children, a bit short of 22!
The Colon connection has me baffled. I know there is a Collon only 8 miles from Drogheda and from Pat's information the Bassiere family may have been in the Militia but I have not got anywhere with that line of enquiry. (Thank you from me Pat for your work also.)
I have not found Joseph's date of birth in Ireland although it should be 1807-8. Maybe it was lost in the 'big fire' but I think perhaps Joseph's father may have been the Reverend minister and maybe he was in the Militia. I don't know his first name so I haven't been able to check if he was. If he was in the Militia he may have been in Colon America (there are 3 Colon's in America) and so maybe Joseph was born there, (or they emmigrated there) he married Jane from another Militia family and their son Lewis was born there as stated on his death certificate. The Anglo-American war got underway about 1833 but I haven't had time to look into this or if the Irish Militia was even involved. Its all speculation on my part.
Another clue for Joseph's father being the Minister was an entry for a Rebecca Harris, widow, who died in Drogheda (1867 I think from memory) and was buried in the St Peter's cemetary. She had lived in the Widow's Houses attached to St. Peters which were exclusively for the widows of clergymen. Rebecca is a family name: Joseph's daughter (as above) and Clemence's daughter (my great aunt) born in Australia could have been named after her.
Well Jeanette I have possibly bored you with all this information which you probably know already. If you can fill in any gaps I would love to know. The chase is so engrossing I love looking into my family and I am gratified to know we are related (not sure how?) and to know there are other Harris decendants in NZ. Maybe one day I will visit again. I was there in 1971 on a tour as my father lived in Palmerston at the time. If only I knew then what I now know!! Hope we can talk again soon.
Kindest Regards
Sue
Hi again Sue
Thanks for the update. I reckoned, counting back we are third cousins. Robert and Clemence were brothers, then their off spring 1st cousins, Frederick William being my grand father, then Dad, Keith Dudley, 2nd cousin to your Harris parent....then us.
It was quite a shock some years back when we realised Dad had paternal family in numbers. We knew of uncle Frank, Fred's brother and his sister Violet. Nothing was ever spoken off, we thought we were Scottish, the island and the tweed and because Dad loved pipes and drums. I was thrilled to find I had Irish, asumming Joseph was in fact, Susannah increased my Scottish DNA, lots of it on Mum's side.
The Colon, Collon connection is either a red herring or a huge coincidence, fun to persue, such a huge geographical separation, however I did a bit of the historical research and you can make the pieces fit.
Did your Dad live in Palmerston South Island or Palmerston North on the other island?
It would be interesting to share family photos to see if there are any likenesses.
More later.
I'm glad you kept an eye out and caught my recent post. I did think to look up Murphy in Hobart but I guess there are a few. Are you the Uni professor?
Cheers
Jeanette
Hi Ladies
the posts are getting longer and longer, firstly if you want to contact each other via email and are reluctant to post onlne you can email me at stpeters@irelandxo.com which is my site email and I will email ye both so ye can have direct contact, I have done this previously for some people, so if ye wish.
I attach a link to a website with pictures of Ireland of architectural stuff of merit and the pubs best side http://archiseek.com/2010/clarkes-bar-drogheda-co-louth/ Ye can look through the Louth section and see the church also in full frame.
The history of the pub state it bought the liquor license in 1900 so before that it would have been a grocery store I think, if they were in the Orange Order it was unlikely they had a high opinion of drink.
There is an Irish Government site that is free and has recently started adding register images to records but not in the majority of cases I found under the names Harris, https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ I got 28 hits on Harris between 1845 and 1900 with registration area Drogheda, the deaths do not have images. Irish Civil Records commenced in 1845 for Protestant marriages and in 1864 for all, hence the year span. When you open the site click Civil Records and follow the instructions to search. Church records are only for Dublin and Cork and I think Kerry but might be worth checking for Bassiere, there are 4 Bassiere marriage hits and one birth, four deaths, sadly one fo the deaths is the child that was born, some cert images, all records are in Dublin area, Rathdown is a suburb. I think the name of the mother is Buch on the image.
Under Church Records Dublin there are 7 Bassiere hits including one, Carter from Cullen, Co. Louth to a female Bassiere, Collon is locally pronounced Cullen as it is from the Gaelic and is said that way by the locals so spelling is phonetic.
I have a piece about the Louth militia and they were stationed in the UK, two different areas and in some areas of Ireland but not America, I think they were more a force filling in for the army absent in the many English wars. So missing births may be there as the wifes went along it appears for some anyway.
This started out to be a short bullet point email, but as you can see I am a verbose Irish man, (not in real life though).
Regards
Pat
Hi Jeanette,
How exciting to know we are 3rd cousins!! Do you know how many of the Harris family live in NZ I would also have relatives from the Bach(e) family as Susan (Clem's wife) came out to NZ with her brothers, around 1880 and had other relatives already living there. Another story of course.
No I am not the Uni professor! I doubt if there are any Murphy relatives in Tasmania as Chris (my husband) and I came to Tasmania 40 years ago from Sydney where we grew up. All our relatives are NSW based (excluding the NZ connection) as far as I know of course. Where did you live in Australia?
Chris and I were Building Designers and had our own business here in Hobart, but that is all gone now as we are retired. I miss the design part, mainly residential, but not the work! So nice to have more time to explore the family's history.
I will send my email to Pat following his kind offer so you can email me direct. I think that would be better to exchange photos. Perhaps we could even 'Facetime' at some stage! I use Facetime to see and talk to my daughter who is living in Cambodia at the moment. Its a great app but you need a iPad or Mac computer I think. Skype is the other one, but haven't used that for a long time.
Looking forward to emailing with you.
Sue
I was just looking into this J. Harris and I cam across your exchanges here.
I know nothing more about him but I thought you might find this interesting.
Hi Thanks for attaching that, very interesting. If you know where you found it or what newspaper it was in please let me know.
Either way thanks again and from the ladies that have contacted me also.
Regards
Pat
Hi Pat,
I saw it on an online presentation about the Orange Order. The speaker was Quincey Dougan and the material would have come from Orange Order HQ in Belfast. Sorry I don't know any more and it was a total fluke that I connected this message board and what I glimsed on the screen. I just took a sceen shot. I had been doing a bit of research into some Drogheda names from around that period but J. Harris was not of interest to me but you know how when you are researching a name out of the blue just rings a bell in your mind.
David
Hello Jeanette,
It appears that I am also a relative of yours, and presumably of Sue's! Robert Harris, sone of Joseph Harris and husband of Anna Mary Harris (nee Blomfield) was my great-great grandfather. Robert and Anna's daughter Sarah Anna Worrall (nee Harris) married my great-grandfather Frederick Worrall. Fred and Sarah's son Ralph Frederick Worrall, my grandfather, was adopted out to Stewart and Nellie Vickers on account of Sarah being institutionalised for life for depression (the cause of which is debatable, but that's a long story). He was renamed Ernest Ralph Vickers. When he discovered he was adopted he did a 60/70's hyperfocus by land and hard registry version of what we now do oniline and searched out all his fmaily. Ultimately he changed his name to Ernest Ralph Frederick Worrall Vickers.
I guess that if Robert was your great-grandfather and he was my great-great-grandfather, then we are cousins once removed.
I have done masses of reserach which I will dump online at some stage, but in the meantime if you have any questions about my branch of the family, go ahead and ask!
Best,
Claudia
Hello Claudia
Thanks for the message. I have a lovely"man on the ground" in Drogheda who has been helping me for many years now, he alerted me to your latest post. I too have an extensive tree, more a dense forest by now.
In the past we contributed a few photos and papers to the Te Aroha Museum, quite exciting to see them up on the wall. I did go to Drogheda in 1999, sad to say before I started the tree, otherwise I would have stayed a lot longer. It's on the list of things to do in the future.
Cheers Jeanette
Just my luck as I went in this morning to look up in NZ files. BDM Service outage: Between 10:00pm Saturday 30 August and 2:30pm Sunday 31 August (NZST).
Hi Jeanette,
Delighted to hear from you! I read the thread and your "man on the ground" is certainly a most wonderful human being! Many years ago I went to a wedding just outside Dublin in County Meath, if only I'd known then I'd have stopped by Drogheda. I'll be in New Zealand in November this year for a few weeks travelling by road between Auckand and Wellington, via Rotorua, and visiting places and family. Probably with my Uncle Murray (also your cousin, but not removed of course). Sing out if you'd like to catch up for a cuppa
Cheers,
Claudia
PS., Jeanette, Sue, and Pat:
Jeanette - Would you mind sending me the info about the ship that Susanah and her children travelled on when they went to Australia? And do you have the same info for Jane and Robert when they came out? @Sue I saw from your comment that you found it - could you please pass it on?
Susannah apparently went by Susan (she is listed as Susan in the probate report of Joseph Harris's will, and was his Executor). @ Sue could you pelase share her parents' names?
For Wm Harris, Ancestry says he d. 7 Jul 1927, and is buried in Molong General Cemetary, NSW - according to Find-a-Grave there is a Wm Harris there, who died in 1927, but it seems more likely that that's not our Wm Harris, given there's on buried in the same plot at Susan in Taupiri Cemetary.
I would really love to see your photos of your great-grandfather (my great-great grandfather) Robert outside his general stores.
FYI, Clemence was baptised in St. Peters Church of Ireland, which is Anglican (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_Church_of_Ireland,_Drogheda), confirming that the family was Protestant as Pat surmised. I don't know much about these religeous histories so I wondered why Pat would have assumed them Protestant - @Pat?
@Pat I would love to see your piece on the Louth militia. Some of my evidence suggests that Joseph and Susannah (Susan) were in 1851 Frankton, Warwickshire in 1851 (their daughter Susannah Clementina Harris was baptised there then). The children from Alexander on are all listed in St Peters of Ireland baptism records, but those before him are not. If Joseph was also in the militia, perhaps he was stationed in England, where he could more easily have met Susan the scotswoman, started a family, then went back to Drogheda, not far from his first wife's family and his son Lewis (also in the militia) in Collon.
All: attached my research to date on Robert and the other Harrises...
did the attachment work?
Morning Claudia
I would love the chance to meet up, however my home is now girt by sea...we are no longer in NZ, where are you? (Share only if you wish)
Pat mentioned a few issues with his PC until tomorrow, I can ask him if he still has the resources to share e mails privately to allow us to hook up. I'd love to know more.
Until I found my grandfather Fred's death certificate many years after his death we did not know of his big family.
My brother is Robert Harris, a third generation, uncle Frank got quite excited about that tradition. More on that later!
J
Good morning Jeanette,
My home is also girt by sea! I’m in Brisbane. I have visits to Sydney and Melbourne coming up later in the year. If you message me at my work email then I’ll share my private email. https://www.qut.edu.au/about/our-people/academic-profiles/claudia.vickers
Best,
Claudia