Hanley surname in Glensharrold and Newcastle West, Limerick

Hi Alan,
I see you put Australia, was it one of Michael and Ellen's children that went to Australia?
If it was, can you tell me their first name please. They had several children.
I am not related to you, just trying to help.
Thanks Margot
 

 

Hi Margot,

Thanks for your reply. As far as I am aware, none of Michael and Ellen’s children came to Australia. My interest in this family is a strong DNA match between two kits I manage for an uncle and his first-cousin (both with surname Jordon) to two sibling descendants of John Thomas Hanley and Hannie Herlihy. John was born in Rathina, Newcastle West in 1893, one of six children born to Michael and Ellen. Hannie was born in Gragues, Rathkeale in 1885. John and Hannie sailed on the same ship (SS Carmania 1920) to New York; they give different names and addresses for their sponsors so presumably they married in New York but I have not been able to find a marriage record. Their first child was born in New York in 1924.

The DNA match is around third-cousin level which means that my uncle and his first cousin have great-great-grandparents in common with the two Hanley descendants of Michael and Ellen Hanley. Accounting for generational difference between my Jordon DNA testers (in their 90s) and the Hanley DNA testers (in their 60s), that means going back two generations from Michael Hanley (born ~1865) and Ellen Donegan (born ~1865). I would like to be as sure as possible that I have the correct Michael Hanley marrying Ellen Donegan (whose parents and grandparents I also need to find). Of the other Jordon kits I manage, we get many minor DNA matches to folk whose ancestors can be traced back to the area around Dromcollogher, Limerick so I think we have the right area.

This appears somewhat clumsy but using this same method of building a family tree for a strong DNA match enabled me to find the origins of a mystery great-grandfather from Scotland. He ended up in Tasmania and changed his name due to being a convict thus the difficulty in finding his origins but DNA matches got us there. Scottish records go back to the 1700s in many cases but I see that most records in County Limerick only start around 1830 so it may not be possible to solve this mystery. Building the best possible Hanley-Herlihy tree might get close though.

Thanks, Alan

Hi Alan,
You say............
 Joseph Hanley, aged 60, is also found in Maiden Street, Gortboy for the same census with a 14 year-old Joseph, which would fit with the younger Joseph being the son of Michael and Ellen born 1886 in Castletown, Croom. The relationship for the younger Joseph is shown as “Nephew” but should be grandson – a niggle of doubt in an otherwise good fit. Another niggle of doubt is that Joseph (the younger) was born in Castletown, Croom where one of the other Michael Hanley's was born in 1869.

this is your Joseph Hanley.
Joseph Hanley 25th August 1886 Michael and Ellen Donegan Cappaninhane, Limerick CROOM 1955791.pdf
The other one who is 14 is from a different family.
The registrar's district is Castletown but the Union is Croom.
On the Irish Genealogy site, search for a name.........then leave just the surname and then look for CROOM.
There are 9 Births, look through them and you will get the 6 births, then look for deaths as there were two according to the 1911 census.
This is the 1911 Census, Joseph is 24.
National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911

 

In the Maiden street record..........the next time you see a miss spell, can you update it in the box as it was Hurley, I have done this now (I have corrected a few) 

The Jordan relatives you mention, were they by any chance from Drumlish in County Longford?  

Reading the ship record, Hannie originally went to New York in 1902. She was returning to her home in the USA.
John was going to his Aunt....Mary C. Shine. 48 Carlisle Street, Yonkers.    
Take a tip always look at page two.
Have to see who this Mary Shine is.

I have looked at a few trees with Donegan.........Hanley. then check for Jordan in their list. None so far.

The Hanley family in Maiden Street must have been related to John's father as he was living there in 1920 as on the ship record.

Let me know about the Jordan's please.

Cheers
Margot

 

Hi Margot,

I’ll start with the easy one…. Mary C. Shine was indeed John’s aunt, the older sister of his father Michael Hanley. Mary Hanley was born to Joseph Hanley and Catherine Fitzgibbon, baptised in Ardagh on 02Feb1863, per the Catholic parish records. She married Cornelius Daniel Shine in Newcastle West on 20Feb1881 and they sailed to New York about 1884, according to US census data. I also have the record for Hannie Herlihy first going to the US in 1902. I have built a detailed tree on Ancestry for this Hanley-Herlihy family going back as far as I can where it gets rather speculative looking for connections to my Jord*n surname thus it is currently private. If you would like access to it, please email me at aldenham@telstra.com and I will send you a link.

The 1911 census for Michael Hanley is a bit of a disaster. The Household return, presumably filled out by Michael Hanley, first shows he was married but has been crossed out and “widower” written over top. Ellen Hanley is first shown as “wife” then scratched out and “Daughter-in-law” written over top. She is shown as being 46 on this census yet she is 25 on the 1901 census. I did send a correction in for this as it should be 35 (and that is probably wrong as well!). Ellen’s sister Mary’s age is 50 on the 1901 census and 52 on the 1911 census! As to the four living children of six born, I found five on Irish Civil records – Joseph 1886, Patrick 1891, John Thomas Hanley 1893 (who married Hannie Herlihy in New York), James 1896 and Thomas in 1900. The gap between Joseph and Patrick might be where the sixth child was born but I could not find a record.

I could not find the 1901 census record for Joseph Hanley due to the misspelling of the surname. A query to this forum some time ago provided the answer. The younger Joseph is not in the household of his parents on the 1901 census so I thought it safe to assume that he is the Joseph Hanley aged 14 (roughly matches birth record) with his grandfather Joseph Hanley aged 60 (unsure as his birth year ~1835 in Shanagolden) and matches his age at death of 76 in 1916. Being another house in Maiden Street where Michael Hanley’s family is on the 1901 census, I assumed that Joseph aged 60 is Michael’s father and Joseph aged 14 is Michael’s son who happened to be with his grandfather night of the census, yet it shows relationship as "uncle". Michael had a younger brother named Joseph but he died in 1883 aged five years. Joseph aged 24 is back in his parent’s house for the 1911 census, still in Maiden Street. It’s a good fit but an assumption!

The death record for Michael Hanley 31Aug1931 shows he died at Maiden Street with the death informant being his wife Ellen. She gives his age as 58; it should be 66. Ellen also died in Maiden Street, on 19Mar1942. Her age is given as 76, meaning a birth year of 1866, roughly consistent with the 1901 census (allowing for 10-year math error) and 1911 census. The only baptism record I can find for an Ellen Donegan is 19Sep1858 in Ballingarry, which fits the area of interest. This is purely based on her father being named as Patrick, per her marriage record on 01Oct1885. The baptism register gives her father’s name as Patrick Dunnigan and mother as Johanna O’Sullivan. Given that Ellen has a sister Mary Donegan living with her Hanley family on both the 1901 and 1911 census data, aged 50 and 52 respectively, I found a baptism record for a Mary Dunnigan in Shandrum, Cork on 01Jul1849 with parents Patrick Dunnigan and Johanna O’Sullivan. This fits with the 1901 census age for Mary. Again, not so far from the area of interest being only 17km from Ballingarry and close to Dromcollogher. I also found a marriage record for Patrick and Johanna, 01Dec1838 in Dromcollogher, which is where most of my DNA matches lead us.

Family lore has it that our Jordons came from County Cork. My great-grandfather, on his marriage record here in Victoria in 1879, claims he was born in Westminster, London in 1848 to parents John Jordon and Mary O’Connor but there are no records to prove such. He claims he came to Australia with his family when he was five years old; there are no passenger records but the gold rush was on and records are not complete for that era. All we really have to go on is DNA which points generally to Munster, Ireland with closest matches around Limerick bleeding over to Cork. As to Jordans from Drumlish, County Longford, after 20+ years of traditional genealogy and six years of tracing matches through eight Jordon DNA kits, I’m open to suggestions!

Let me know if you would like access to the Hanley-Herlihy-Jord*n tree that I have built.

Thanks again Margot.

Cheers, Alan

 

Margot, I found the earlier message re Joseph and Joseph Hanley on the 1901 census...... https://www.irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/message-board/hanley-family-newcas…

They are shown as Hauley not Hanley. I think this should be Michael Hanley's father Joseph and Michael's son Joseph - thoughts?

One odd thing I just noticed on Catherine Hanley's death record in 1909. Her husband Joseph signs with a mark yet on the the 1901 and 1911 census forms, they both state he can read and write? Also, he is shown to be a labourer on his wife's death record yet the census data shows him as a farmer?

 

Just to add to the confusion! Alan

Alan,
The Joseph Hanley born 25th August 1886, he died 16th August 1914 aged 28, Ellen his Mother was present at the death.

4471203.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

I saw the marriage of Joseph Hanley and Catherine Fitzgibbon.  1862   Mahoonagh, Ardagh. see the file above.
Also a birth of Margaret. 1868.

 

I have sent an Ancestry message to you.
Cheers

Margot