Dwyer family in Carnahalla (Cahernahallia), Tipperary
Hi Everyone,
Below I summarize what led me to look for one of my great grandmothers being born in Carnahalla, Tipperary, based on searching English records. Then I identify key questions that have arisen as I have recently begun to search for her in relevant Irish records. I would be most grateful for any help in moving my research forward.
A Brief Summary of What I Know
From researching my ancestors in English records, including using Ancestry, I have found that one of my great grandmothers, Ann(e) Dwyer, was born in Carnahalla, Tipperary in about 1842. The specific information that she was born In Carnahalla only came to light when I eventually located her and her husband in the English Census of 1911; at the time she is living in Bermondsey, London with her husband, Michael Ryan, who was listed as being born in Lagganstown, Tipperary in about 1840.
I have been able to find extensive English records for Dwyers and Ryans, all of which indicate Ann(e) and Michael and their children were Roman Catholics. The records discovered include their marriage in London on 25th December 1868 at St. Marys Chapel, Moorfields, and the birth of 8 children and where the family lived in London from at least 1868 through until 1911.
The first of the Ryan children, William, was shown in the 1871 Census as being born at Oxford Street, London in 1864 (i.e. 4 years before Ann(e) and Michael marry), which suggests they had likely left Ireland by 1864. It is unknown whether the two parents left Ireland separately or together, or even knew each other before leaving. The marriage certificate shows that Ann signed her name and Michael made his mark. There is no entry for the name or profession of Michaels father. Throughout the records, Michaels employment is described as pavior and Ann(e) as domestic servant.
From their marriage record in 1868 I know that Annes father was Anthony Dwyer and that he was a tailor. In the English Census of 1871, I found Ann(e), Michael and their first 2 children living in 201 White Cross Court, Holborn, and 4 apartments away an Anthony Dwyer age 65, unmarried, born in Tipperary and a tailor, along with a William Dwyer age 15, who was born in St. Lukes, Middlesex. I am assuming Anthony Dwyer was likely Ann(e)s father and that the William Dwyer could be a brother of Ann(e) (or some other relative, as relation to head is not indicated). The marriage certificate unfortunately gives no name for Michaels father nor his profession.
It is only in the 1911 Census entry that Michaels middle name John appears in any of the records. Ann(e)s name is variously spelt with or without an e, neither being obviously dominant. Most importantly it was not until I located Ann(e) and Michael in the 1911 Census, after a couple of years of searching, that I discovered where specifically in Tipperary each was born; all other records indicated merely Ireland and/or Tipperary.
Recently I began using all that I have discovered so far to see if Ancestry would help me in finding Irish birth or baptism records for either Ann(e) or Michael. I have found a baptism record for an Anne Dwyer that fits closely with what I know and indicates her mother would have been Honora Ryan (see attached and discussion below). However, this is just one of several possibles and so I am not making any assumptions about its relevance until I learn more from other Irish records. Nothing specific has been found as yet that is obviously relevant to our Michael Ryans birth or baptism location and date.
Questions Arising From Beginning to Search Irish Records
From the beginning of my research on each of the branches of our Dorcey family I have used Ancestry to access data bases and store what I have discovered. It is only very recently that I have begun to inform myself about Irish data bases. I have found The Family Tree Irish Genealogy Guide by Claire Santry to be most helpful in getting informed about this new realm of inquiry and in leading me to the rich array of books, data bases and investigation resources that are available to assist researchers, including this site.
Having begun with no more information than my London born grandmother (Johanna Dorcey) was born a Ryan, it has been most gratifying to learn a lot more about my Dorcey ancestors across branches and to discover that they were dominantly Irish born (late 1700s - early 1800s) once I went back as far as my great great grandparents. My DNA results are consistent with this in suggesting a predominately Irish ancestry.
To progress further in identifying my ancestors it is clear that now I need to begin investigating what I can learn from Irish records. Santry and many others have forewarned me about the challenges I face because of the limitations of surviving records and data bases. I have read enough to know that not least of my challenges derives from having ancestors with NOT uncommon names (Ryan and Dwyer) among those who have been born and lived in the parts of Tipperary (and possibly Limerick) that I need to focus on, initially at least. Further I understand that traditions for naming children only add to the puzzles and vagaries of data collection that I should expect to encounter. Therefore any help and guidance on general research strategies and specific topics or names from those of you who are more experienced in such inquiries would be greatly appreciated.
Since Ann(e) Dwyer is the ancestor about whom I know most ( in comparison to the other relevant Ryan, McNulty and Dorcey branches) it seemed like she was the best person (along with her family) to focus on initially, which brings me to where I am presently and the following key question:
Where is Carnahalla and is it the appropriate place name to use in looking for Dwyers in the Census and Griffith records?
In giving Carnahalla as her birthplace I do not know to what particular place Ann(e) Dwyer is referring. Googling Carnahalla has led me to the Carnahalla Heritage Centre between Doon and Toem and not far from Cappawhite/Cappagh White. The web site for the Centre does not talk specifically about Carnahalla as a named place and the map on their contact page indicates the Centre is located at Cahernahalla. Could the latter be the actual place that Ann(e) Dwyer referred to as her birthplace?
In reading correspondence in the 1880s from tenants on the estate of Viscount Lismore, I found reference to Carnahalla (Cahernahallia). This suggests that the two names might be used interchangeably. Is this the case?
From looking at maps I see the River Cahernahallia runs along the nearby border of County Limerick and County Tipperary and the Cahernahallia Bridge crosses the river to convey the R505 between Cappawhite and Doon. Might the word Cahernahallia be used by Ann(e) Dwyer to refer to her birthplace being within the drainage of the river (i.e. the Cahernahallia watershed)?
When I most recently turned to look for Dwyers in the 1901/1911 Irish Censuses, I discovered that Cahernahallia is a Townland, along with mappings and information about related boundaries. Given the above consideration of what Ann(e) Dwyer might have been referring to in writing Carnahalla as her birthplace, I am presently thinking I should begin my search for relevant Dywers in the Censuses and other sources within the Townland of Cahernahallia. Does this make sense?
I have taken a very preliminary look at what I will find in the 1901/1911 Irish Censuses and the Griffiths Valuation 1847-1864 records for both Cahernahallia for Dwyers and Lagganstown Upper and Lower for Ryans and can see that there are intriguing but numerous possibles. Before putting time and effort into trying to determine their relevance to my ancestors
I thought it important to find ways to narrow as much as possible and quickly as possible on those that are relevant. Does it make sense to now look closely at these records? Do you have any suggestions on how to proceed?
Many thanks.
Tony Dorcey