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Dual Irish/US Citizenship

Hi,

 

I don't know if this message board entertains this sort of question, but I have a question about acquiring Irish Citizenship through a great grandparent.

 

First of all, I realize that having an Irish great grandparent is not sufficient, in and of itself, to assure that I can acquire Irish citizenship, and I realize that answers to my question(s) would not be official or definitive in any way, but could best be considered as friendly, informal, and unofficial advice.

 

My question is rather unusual and somewhat complex, so please bear with my.

 

I have a great grandmother, Susannah, who was born in Ireland. (I discussed Susannah in another post, but the topic of the current post is unrelated to my previous post.) My core question is whether, for the purposes of applying for Irish citizenship, Susannah would be considered and Irish citizen. Here are the facts of the case.

 

1) Susannah was born on the island of Ireland in the mid-1800s.

2) She moved to the US and married a US citizen.

3) The marriage took place in one of the US territories, not in one of the US states or in the UK.

4) The marriage took place on 5 January 1870, which was about 5 months before the The [British] Naturalization Act of 1870 took effect. I specified [British] here because there was also a US Naturalization Act of 1870. Henceforth I will just call it the British Act as The Naturalization Act for short.

5) The spouse (Albert) was already married, so the marriage was bigamous.

6) It was illegal under then-current US law for a bigamous marriage to take place, specifically because of the Morrill Anti-Bigomy Act, which became effective in 1861 and made it bigamous marriage a felony.

7) The Naturalization Act included a provision that stripped UK citizenship from someone who married someone who was not a UK citizen. (I use the word "citizen" here for convenience instead of the word "subject" or convenience and simplicity.)

8) My grandfather, Franklin, a child of Albert and Susannah, was born in 1878 in one of the territories of the US, not in one of the states of the US or in the UK. (I realize that 1878 seems like a long time ago for the birth of a grandfather, but the date is correct.)

 

My question is whether, for the purposes of applying for Irish citizenship, Susannah would be considered a British citizen (and by implication an Irish citizen) or not when my great grandfather was born.

 

There are a couple of wild cards to this question. The first is whether the Naturalization Act would even apply to someone who took their marriage vows before the Naturalization Act took effect, and second, whether, for the purposes of applying for Irish citizenship Susannah would be considered to have been married to Albert, given the fact that the marriage was illegal under then-current US law. Third, if she was not legally married to Albert when Franklin was born would Susannah still be considered to be a Citizen of the UK (and by implication, effectively an Irish citizen)?

 

If Susannah was still effectively an Irish citizen when Franklin was born I think that would open the door just a crack for me to apply for Irish citizenship as the grandchild of an Irish citizen.

 

Any thoughts on this rather complicated situation?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

alanrockwood20…

8 replies

I just found some relevant British case law, Hyde v Hyde, decided in 1866. I am taking the information from the Wikipedia article about this case. "Lord Penzance found that institutions in foreign countries (including marriage) cannot be considered as valid under English law, unless they resemble the equivalent English institution. With respect to marriage, English law could therefore not recognise either polygamy or concubinage as marriage."

 

This would imply that my grandmother was effectively an Irish citizen when my grandfather was born, which I think could open up my situation to apply for Irish citizenship.

alanrockwood20…

I believe you are right--that if Susannah was an Irish citizen, then her son was too, no matter where he was born.

I know a family in the U.S. where one of the parents was born in Ireland. Their children, born in NY, were automatically Irish citizens and did not have to apply for citizenship, only passports.

There are individuals specializing in obtaining Irish citizenship; you might want to google to find one.

Good luck!

glanvil3@aol.com

A bigamous marriage is void, ab initio, and so has no effect. (It doesn’t necessarily necessarily need a court to declare it void. If one of the parties was already married, then the second ceremony had no validity. I think that’s common ground in most jurisdictions). Consequently it would have no implications for your great grandmother’s British citizenship. That would have been unaffected.

But I am not sure I see how Susannah retaining her British Citizenship overcomes modern Irish law which only entertains a citizenship claim from someone whose grandparent was born in Ireland, not a great-grandparent. As I understand it, Franklin needed to be born in Ireland for you to have a claim.

But why not ask the Irish Embassy in the US? I am sure you could e-mail their consular section and ask.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks for the responses so far... good idea about contacting the Irish Embassy in the US. (I did send a message to the office in Ireland that handles naturalization, using the contact page, but I have not received a reply, or even an acknowledgment of receiving my message.)

 

On the question of citizenship through a great grandparent, it makes the process of acquiring Irish citizenship easier, but unlike the situation of citizenship through a grandparent, the decision on an application for Irish citizenship through a great grandparent is at the discretion of the office in Ireland that handles those things, and it is my understanding that it generally requires showing a significant connection to Ireland in addition to being a great grandchild, such as by living in Ireland for a few years.

 

Here are links to a couple of web pages that explain how it works.

 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving-country/irish-citizenship/…

 

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to-become-a-citizen/applications-ba…

 

 

alanrockwood20…

Hi again, I hope to continue the discussion. Briefly, I think it is clear from the previous discussion here, as well as relevant case law, that my great grandmother (who was born on Irish soil) was an Irish citizen when my grandfather was born.

 

There is a process for gaining Irish citizenship through a great grandparent born in Ireland. It is not automatic, and it requires the applicant to show strong ties to Ireland. Normally this means that the great grandchild must live in Ireland for about three years, and in any case the decision is entirely at the discretion of the office in Ireland that handles citizenship applications.

 

The thought occurred to me, I wonder if I learned the Irish language then Ireland might waive the usual requirement for residence in the country. To put it another way, would learning the language demonstrate a close enough relationship to Ireland to take the place of residing in Ireland? Ok, it's a long shot, and obviously, nobody here could give an official or definitive answer, but I'm interested in your thoughts

Thanks.

alanrockwood20…

The thought occurred to me, I wonder if I learned the Irish language then Ireland might waive the usual requirement for residence in the country. To put it another way, would learning the language demonstrate a close enough relationship to Ireland to take the place of residing in Ireland? Ok, it's a long shot, and obviously, nobody here could give an official or definitive answer, but I'm interested in your thoughts

Perhaps you might contact the Irish Dept. of Foreign Affairs, which I believe issues passports/grants citizenship.  It would be able to answer your query, whereas the posters here would likely be engaging in conjecture. Good luck!

glanvil3@aol.com

Thanks Patricia. Good idea.

alanrockwood20…

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