Penny,

The paid site, Roots Ireland, shows an Ellen Shortt born in 1827 in the RC parish of Edenderry, County Offaly. The father is Michael Shortt and mother is Catherine...no surname given nor baptism sponsors listed. This might not be the one you are searching for as it does not match her self-reported places of birth - Co. Louth & Co. Down. 

Not all parishes have records back that far. 

Regards,

1851 census  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6T-JCT?lang=en

Continued from above

1871 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRF5-6BT?lang=en

continued from above

continued from above

Hi Carolyn and Eileen,

Thank you both for the information you have located and shared in your messages.

I will use this to continue my research on my ancestor Ellen Short.

Do you know if there are any site(s) that lists those who left Ireland in the 1800's, that I could explore ? I am eager to learn more about Ellen's journey.

Thanks again,

Penny

Penny,

There was a Michael Short living in Dundalk in 1854. He had land, a house, and an office. A Patrick Short lived in the same townland. 

Griffith's Valuation Record Information

Regards- Mary

Michael Short's death record from Irishgenealogy. Concern it might not be yours since there is no mention of military.

Click on record Image

Short family still living in the same townland in 1901. Bridget (Jameson) Short was married to John Short who previously passed away. They were married in 1863 in Lordship, Louth (per RootsIreland).

Residents of a house 7 in Drumnasillagh (Ballymascanlan, Louth)

Penny,

There was a Michael Short who married a Rose McCrave in 1855 in Lordship so the death record above might not be connected to your Ellen.

Hi MaryTV,

Thank you for researching Michael Short and for sharing some new information and a death document discovered during your search - your time, and this information is much appreciated. I will use the new names provided in my continued research into my Short family ancestors.

Thanks again,

Penny

Hello Penny,

After reading your message, and the replies kindly provided by Carolyn, Eileen and MaryTV, I had a suspicion that Ellen Short may not have belong to the Catholic Church, at least, not in England.

Based on your information that Ellen and James Robert Ruff were married in Westminster, London, on October 20, 1850, I looked for a copy of their original marriage record to see if the marriage took place in the Anglican Church of England.  

In Ireland the Anglican Church is the Church of Ireland.

I found the marriage record for Ellen and James at the Ancestry.com subscription website. As you know they were married in the church of St Mary, Tothill Fields (St Mary the Virgin, Vincent Square), London, Westminster, England. This is a Church of England parish, rather than a Roman Catholic parish. So you don't have to dig into your files, the marriage record is attached to this reply.

This means that Ellen may have been baptized in the Church of Ireland when she and her family lived in County Louth. RootsIreland has not transcribed Church of Ireland baptisms, marriages, and burials for County Louth. 

The challenge for genealogists and family historian with Church of Ireland ancestors is that almost half of the Church of Ireland parish registers of baptism, marriage, and burials, were destroyed in a fire at the Public Record Office, Four Courts Building in Dublin during the Irish Civil War in 1922.  

But that leaves half the Church of Ireland parish registers that weren't destroyed.

 Knowing this I wanted to see if the Dundalk, County Louth Church of Ireland registers survived the fire.

To do this I went to "The List of Church of Ireland Parish Registers" website at: https://www.churchofireland.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf

Here I found that there are baptism, marriage, and burial records available for St. Nicholas Church of Ireland, Dundalk, Louth.

Baptisms are available from 1729 to 1924; marriages from 1750 to 1929; and burials from 1727 to 1985.

The parish registers for St. Nicholas are held by the St. Nicholas Church of Ireland in Dundalk. Information at "The List of Church of Ireland Parish Registers" website notes that..., "local clergy in both NI (Northern Ireland) and ROI (Republic of Ireland) are...obliged to make available original registers in their custody available under both national legislation and in accordance with the Constitution of the Church of Ireland."

Penny, I suggest sending an email to one of the St. Nicholas Church of Ireland clergy to see if they can look for Ellen Short's baptism in the Dundalk registers. Mention you cannot come by the church because you live in Canada. 

You can send an email request for a search of the parish registers to one of two clergy members in the Dundalk parish. One is the Rev. Shirley Murphy, who is the Rector of the church. The other clergy is the Rev. Richard Moore, non-stipendiary minister. 

You can find their email addresses here: https://www.armagh.anglican.org/Parishes/DundalkHeynestownUnionBallymascanlanUnionCreggan.html

Also, because you do not know the exact year of Ellen Short's birth (her marriage record states she was "of full age,"), and because Church of Ireland babies were not always baptized within a short period of time after they were born, as Catholic babies were, I suggest giving the date of Ellen's baptism between the years 1820 and 1832. The year up to 1832 because Ellen would have been 18 years old in 1850 when she married if she had been born in 1932. 

You'll also want to provide the name of Ellen's father, Michael, who may have been a soldier when Ellen was baptized. You'll also want to mention that you do not know the first or maiden names of Ellen's mother. 

The other thing to be aware of is that Church of Ireland and Church of England baptism records traditionally provide the name of the child, the first and sometimes middle name of the father, the surname of the father and child, and the first name of the mother, but not the mother's maiden name. 

I have seen however, some Church of Ireland and Church of England baptisms where the maiden name of the child's mother is recorded, but not in the case of the September 3, 1851 baptism of Sarah Jane Ruff, found at Ancestry.com.

Sarah Jane's father is James Robert, and her mother, Ellen. Ellen's maiden name "Short" is not recorded. 

The baptism took place in the St Mary, Tothill Fields (St Mary the Virgin) Church of England, Westminster, London. The baptism record also shows that Sarah Jane Ruff was born on July 29 1851, and that the residence of the parents was Russell Place. James's occupation was "Bricklayer." The baptism record for Sarah Jane Ruff is attached to this reply and is indicated in the register by the green arrow.

Also attached to this reply is the July 15, 1853 St Mary, Tothill Fields Church of England baptism of Alfred Charles Ruff, son of James Robert and Ellen Ruff. Ellen's maiden name is not recorded. 

Alfred Charles was born on 19 April 1853.  

What this means is that if you send an email to one of the St. Nicholas Church of Ireland clergy, you'll also want to request a look-up for the marriage of Michael Short in the St. Nicholas Church of Ireland marriage registers, as the marriage record will provide the full name of Michael's wife.

There is a small charge for research into the parish registers as you can see in the fee schedule here: https://www.armagh.anglican.org/Contacts/GenealogySearches.html

The fees are in Euros and I believe Northern Ireland Pound Sterling, but you can ask if you can pay for the records by credit or debit card.

If for some reason you do not hear back from a clergy member, or if Ellen's baptism record isn't located in the church registers, please let me know and I'll see if there are other avenues of research you can explore--perhaps a search of the Newry, County Down Church of Ireland registers, which also survived the Four Courts fire in Dublin in 1922.

The St. Nicholas Church of Ireland is a very old church, with origins dating back to the 1400s, though there have been many renovations over the years. For more information about the church,  go to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website link at: 

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/13702024/saint-nicholas-church-of-ireland-church-clanbrassil-street-townparks-upper-dundalk-by-dundalk-co-louth

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Replies to Penny from Carolyn, Eileen, and MaryTV dated 27 and 28 October 2025

Ancestry.com

The List of Church of Ireland Parish Registers

Diocese of Armagh, Dundalk, Heynestown Union, Ballymascanlan Union & Creggan

National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland 

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your response - your extensive research on my ancestor is impressive,and the information and links you have shared are extremely useful and much appreciated.

I will follow your suggestion and reach out to a clergy member to see if any additional information on Ellen and her family can be found in parish registers - I will communicate my findings or if my search requests are unsuccessful.

Thanks again for your time,

Penny

You're welcome Penny, and many thanks for your reply.

Don't hesitate to write in the future with any updates.

Best of Luck,

Dave

Hi Dave,

As you suggested I did message Reverend Murphy regarding the search of her church records for information on Ellen Short.

The reverend's response was much appreciated, and informed me that she has forwarded my request onto a local historian who upon his return to the parish will assist in my research requests.

I am hopeful that the registers will reveal some information on the Short family, and will keep you updated on any findings.

Regards,

Penny

Thank you Penny. I'd appreciate any information that the local historian uncovers for you.

Best of Luck,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope you are well.

I wanted to update you on the feedback I received yesterday from the historian in Dundalk assisting with my ancestry research.

Unfortunately, his search of the church records did not uncover any reference or documentation for Ellen Short or her father, Michael which was disappointing.

He did, however, find a marriage record that he thought might be of interest. I will need to research this further, as Ellen’s 1850 wedding certificate does not list her father as deceased if this is her mother remarrying - or it could be her sister / sister in laws marriage record ?

The marriage record he located is for:

Arthur Fordyce, engineer from Glasgow, who married Anna Matilda Short (widow), in Dundalk by licence on 08.01.1845.

Witnesses were N. C. Wilson and Thomas Jas. Pooler. These individuals may also be worth researching.

He also found a burial record for Letitia Short, dated 01.04.1852, aged 2.5 years, along with another marriage entry.

This second marriage record, dated 15.01.1872, is for Thomas Hall, of full age, a sailor from Dundalk (father: William Hall, engineer), and Eliza Short, a minor, servant, also from Dundalk (father: James Short, blacksmith). Witnesses were J. Higginson and Ann Short.

I am wondering whether this James could be a brother of Ellen’s, which would mean Eliza may have been her niece—but this will need further research, and I might be completely mistaken.

The historian referenced the Newry records as a possible source for information as this location is also documented in census records for Ellen's place of birth.  

Do you know who I would need to contact to see if these records hold anything about Ellen and Michael?

I appreciate your time,

Penny

Hi Penny,

Thank you for the update.

I checked the parish register availability for baptisms and marriages for the Church of Ireland in Newry, County Down.

At the List of Church of Ireland Parish Registers website (https://tinyurl.com/2myetnsw), I found there are two Church of Ireland parishes in Newry. One is St. Mary's and the Other St. Patrick's.

The St. Patrick's Church baptisms are available from 1847, too late to have recorded Ellen Short's baptism. There are no marriage records available at St. Patrick's either.

St. Mary's baptisms are available from 1822 to 1875; marriages from 1784 to 1845; and burials from 1824 to 1872.

The parish rector for the St. Mary's Church of Ireland is the Revd. Scott McDonald. His email address is: scott.mcdonald@churcharmy.org

Also see: https://www.downanddromore.org/find-a-church/newry

Just as a reminder Penny, when you write to Rector McDonald to see if there is a baptism record for Ellen Short, also request he look for the marriage of her parents, Michael, and his wife, whose name is not known. That's because Church of Ireland baptism records traditionally do not record the maiden name of the child's mother.

Michael Short may have been married in the 1820s or perhaps the 18 teens.

Please let me know if the Rev. McDonald finds any information about Ellen Short and her father Michael.

Thank you again for writing Penny.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks again for taking the time to research the Newry parish registers for the availability of baptism and marriage records, and for sharing your findings.I will reach out to Reverend McDonald in the hope that St.Mary's church reveals some details about Ellen Short and her parents.

I will keep you informed of any information discovered.

Take care,

Penny

Thank you Penny. I hope the Reverend. McDonald has good news for you.

All the Best.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope you are well. We have lots of snow here in Ontario, and its pretty cold out too with the day time temperature now in minus figures!

I am unfortunately, unable to update you on Ellen or Michael Short as I have not received any response from Rev.Scott McDonald to my ancestry search request email. 

I have messaged the Dundalk parish historian I was previously in communication with to see if he has any alternative contacts I could reach out to in the new year.

I appreciate any help if you know of any other contact for St.Mary's church in Newry that I could reach out to.

Season's greetings and best wishes for 2026!

Thanks,

Penny.

Hi Penny,

That's very unfortunate that the Rev. McDonald did not reply to your request to lookup the St Mary's Church of Ireland parish registers in Newry, County Down. 

I don't know of any other avenue you can take that won't cost you money to see if Ellen Short's baptism, and marriage of her parents, were recorded in the St. Mary's Church of Ireland, Newry,

Do you have any plans of going to Ireland in the next year or two? If you do, you can look for Ellen's baptism record at the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI).  

Below is the information about the St. Mary's Church of Ireland, Newry, registers of baptism and marriage:

NEWRY, COS DOWN  AND ARMAGH 

C.I. Newry (formerly St Patrick’s and then St Mary’s) (Dromore diocese) 

Baptisms, 1804-14, 1817, 1819 and 1822-94; 

marriages 1784-1963; 

burials, 1824-76; 

index to baptisms, marriages and burials, 1784-c.1910; 

vestry minutes, 1775-1948; select vestry minutes, 1877-1909; 

registers of vestrymen, 1870-1935; 

preachers’ books, 1878-1957; 

registers of pews occupied, 1886-1926, and of subscribers, 1886-1959. 

MIC1/46-48; D2034 

----

The St. Mary's parish registers are on PRONI microfilm MIC1/46-48; D2034

Another option is to request a search of St. Mary's Church registers from the PRONI Enquiry Service, which gives free advice and also offers a fee-paying service for parish registers research. See: https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/proni-enquiry-service#toc-1

The PRONI Enquiry form can be accessed at: https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/proni-enquiry-service#toc-1

Still a third option is to hire a professional genealogist in Ireland, one specializing in County Down genealogy. There are a group of Irish genealogists in Ireland who belong to an organization called, "Accredited Genealogists Ireland." You can read about these genealogists at: https://accreditedgenealogists.ie/agi-members/

I went through the background of each of the several genealogists you see on the page, and found one who specializes in County Down genealogy. This is Beverly Brown who lives in Bangor, County Down. See: https://accreditedgenealogists.ie/agi-beverly-brown/

Bangor is about 12 miles northeast of PRONI in Belfast, which means Beverly's travel expenses wouldn't be as much as a genealogist who lives in say, Dublin, or County Kerry.

See the Google Map: https://tinyurl.com/3y2mfcuv

If paying for research is something you may want to consider, I would first write to the PRONI Enquiry Service to see how much it would cost to go through the St. Mary's, Newry baptisms and marriages on microfilm MIC1/46-48; D2034. This may be a lot less expensive than hiring a professional genealogist.

I wish I had better news Penny.

I hope you have a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous New Year.

All the Best.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas!

I would love to visit Ireland one day as I have also discovered from census data that my great great grandfather William Hanley, and great great grandmother Margaret Ward, may have come from Cork.  I am eager to trace these ancestors and find out more about them and their families.  I guess I need to start saving!

Thank you so much for your detailed response and for the valuable information included in your reply.

I am extremely grateful for your guidance,and for the time you spent providing alternative options that may help with my Irish ancestry searches - I would have not discovered these resources without your help. 

I am happy to reach out to PRONI enquiry services to find out their charges for microfilm parish searches as this maybe my best chance of finding anything out about my 'Short' family ancestors.

Thanks again for your help - I will keep you updated.

Best wishes for 2026!

Penny

Many thanks for writing Penny. It's hard to believe another year has past by and we're now in 2026. 

I would appreciate any information that PRONI may find about Ellen Short. You never know what avenue of research will help to break through a brick wall. 

With best wishes for the New Year,

Dave

Hi Dave, 

I hope you are well. It is crazy how fast the months pass - I don’t recall time moving quite so quickly when I was younger!

The historian who conducted the Dundalk parish searches provided me with an alternative email for Reverend McDonald. I sent a follow-up, and he responded yesterday morning! (Should you receive other inquiries for Newry on this platform, the email I used is: S.Mcdonald.hammer@gmail.com).

Reverend McDonald informed me that he forwarded my requests to the glebewarden for St Patrick’s Church in Newry. Unfortunately, he also noted that onsite baptismal records for St Mary’s Parish only date back to 1894.

John, the glebewarden at St Patrick’s,has also messaged me! He explained that St Mary’s does not hold records of significance, although between 1819 and 1865, it was a principal church in Newry and would have held the records for St Patrick’s, which was then operating as a Chapel of Ease.

From John's message I now know that St Patrick’s was established in 1578, however, its records only go back to 1860 which is disappointing. It was also mentioned that the churchyard has some old graves that might provide some information on my 'Short' ancestors. John has kindly offered to conduct searches upon his return to the church, but given that the record dates I am working with pre date 1860 I’m not sure if anything will be revealed in any records - however, I am hoping that he finds some information to share from grave stones. 

Like yourself, John also shared some valuable resource links to assist my research, these included PRONI in Belfast, the RCB Library in Dublin, and Irish Ancestry.

My next move is to reach out to PRONI to see if their searches can locate Ellen Short, and provide me with any information about her and her family.

I will keep you updated.

Kind regards,

Penny

Hi Penny,

After all the comprehensive research you've done, let's hope that PRONI has some positive news about Ellen Short and her family.

Please provide updates from PRONI when you hear back from them.

Thank you for keeping in touch.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope all is well.

I recently received a message from the church warden,John,who unfortunately, confirmed that the surname 'Short' does not appear in the graveyard registers for St. Patrick’s or St. Mary’s in Newry. While this is a setback, a 'John Short' was located in the Roman Catholic section of St. Mary’s, raising the question of Ellen and Michael's religion.  

My current records do not specify this, but I have contacted PRONI and hope for a breakthrough in the coming weeks that I will update you on.

Additionally, I have identified a Michael Short (born 1795 in County Tyrone), a soldier, via Rootsweb. Unfortunately, the contact for that record has passed away. It is my understanding that Michael was included because of his Short surname and birth location and not because of a family link with the author of this roots page. 

Despite these obstacles, I remain (somewhat positive) and will continue my search for my Short family ancestors.

Take care,

Penny

Thank you Penny for the update. I'm sorry you didn't get better news. I know exactly what you're going through, as I've been looking for the parents of my great grandfather in County Cavan since 1988. 

Hopefully, the next time you write you'll have better news.

Thanks again Penny.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope you are well.

I received an e-mail from Emma at PRONI this morning - I have shared her full response below.

"Dear Penny

 You can search for references via the PRONI eCatalogue - eCatalogue | nidirect.

PRONI Enquiry Service | nidirect

Baptism, marriage and burial searches would be difficult to charge for without all the dates and names provided. Can I advise you to carry out a search request for the baptism records of Michael and Ellen Short with the years provided.

There is an index under D2034/1/1 which may be worth checking to see if baptism, marriage and burials are recorded for the pair in the parish records.

1 search request (D2034/1/3 for the daughter born 1820s.)

Baptism for the father doesn’t fit within date period as baptism records only begin from 1804 under MIC1/46-48 but the index could be checked to see if he was recorded…"

Sorry, if i am making this more complex than it should be,but I am a little confused. Is it being suggested that I submit another request to PRONI for record searches for Ellen & Michael Short, siting these index references alongside the dates I have for them ? Following your instruction I already did this in my initial email.

Maybe It is time to accept defeat ?

Thanks,

Penny

Hi Penny,

I wasn't able to initially access your reply from January 26. When I clicked on the prompt to "Continue the conversation Click here," all that downloaded was a computer code error message from Ireland Reaching Out. The error message is below:

Error: NG0210

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----

Yesterday I did what's called a "View Header" search, which provided me with the title of your query, "Currently researching my 3rd Great Grandmother Ellen Short from County Louth."

With that, I located your initial post of 27 October 2025, and your latest reply from January 26.

I know that Ireland Reaching Out has had some problems with replies for the past few weeks and I reported the computer error code message you see above.

I think that Emma from the PRONI Research Service is telling you they won't do any research without an exact date of birth for Ellen Short and a date of marriage for her parents in the Newry Church of Ireland registers.

I wouldn't submit another request, as you may get the same response.

I looked up the PRONI the Digital Reference numbers provided by Emma and found that PRONI reference D2034/1/1 is an index for Newry baptisms covering the time period from 1784 to 1864. See Below:

D2034/1/1: https://apps.proni.gov.uk/eCatNI_IE/SearchResults.aspx

PRONI Reference Date(s) Title/Description Digital Record

D2034/1/1 1784-1864 Index to Baptismal, Burial and Marriage ... Microfilm: MIC1/46-48

---

The second PRONI reference provided by Emma is D2034/1/3, and refers to the actual Newry baptism register for the years 1804 to 1859:

D2034/1/3: https://apps.proni.gov.uk/eCatNI_IE/ResultDetails.aspx

PRONI Reference Date(s) Title/Description Digital Record

D2034/1/3 1804-1859 Baptismal Register, Parish of Newry No. ...Microfilm: MIC1/46-48

----

The index and the Newry Baptism registers are on PRONI microfilm MIC1/46-48, as found in PRONI's "An Irish Genealogical Source, A Guide to Church Records," which was referenced in a previous reply.

What this means is that you'll either have to search for Ellen's baptism at PRONI if you go to Belfast, Northern Ireland, or hire a genealogist to do the research for you in PRONI Microfilm number MIC1/46-48.

The least expensive would be to hire a genealogist such as Beverly Brown who lives in Bangor, County Down, and who was referenced in my reply of 21 Dec 2025. Information about Beverly can be found at: https://accreditedgenealogists.ie/agi-beverly-brown/

If you decide to hire a genealogist, there are five questions to ask them, according to the Association of Professional Genealogists. You can review these questions at:

https://www.apgen.org/5_questions_to_ask_a_professio.php

From her age in the English census records (if they're accurate) we know that Ellen was born sometime in the early 1830s, which means a genealogist would probably search for her baptism a few years before 1830, and a few years after 1830 in the St. Mary's Newry Church of Ireland baptism register.

But also consider there is always the possibility that Ellen Short was not baptized in St. Mary's Church of Ireland, Newry, County Down. There is a St. Patrick's Church in Newry, but it became a separate parish in 1870. PRONI has baptisms for St. Patrick's but these are only available from 1847-1926, according to "An Irish Genealogical Source, A Guide to Church Records."

Back in the 1990s I hired a researcher to look for the baptism of my great grandfather in County Cavan. He was born circa 1828. I think I paid about $200 for the research, but after about a month or so, I received a reply that they didn't find his baptism record.

Though I don't do much research these days looking for his baptism, I still haven't given up hope that one day I'll find out where in County Cavan he was born.

Please let me know what you decide to do Penny.

Thank you,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your message from a few weeks ago - I hope all is well.

Despite being an unsolved challenge, I have enjoyed my journey searching for my ancestors, Ellen and Michael Short, and am thankful for all your help and support.

I fear that with so little information available, these past family members may, unfortunately, never be found.

As you suggest, my options are to visit Ireland or hire a genealogist - who also may also be unsuccessful in their searches. I need to balance the financial books before I can pursue either venture, but thank you again for your professional support and guidance. I will keep you updated on my next move.

I wish you every success in your own personal searches.

It has been great chatting with you.

Take care,

Penny

Thank you Penny. If you uncover any new information about Ellen Short and her family please let me know. Also, if there are any other Irish records you'd like me to look for, don't hesitate to ask.

Best Wishes,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your message. I hope you are well.

I have decided to take a break from researching Ellen Short and am now investigating other possible Irish ancestors that have emerged in my more recent searches.

I suspect this may prove to be a similar challenge to that of my Short ancestors, due to inconsistent census information and the apparent lack of records. In case it is of interest, I have included some background on my findings below.

My great-grandmother on my father’s side was Ada Margaret Hanley. I believe she was born in August 1874 in Paddington and died in February 1971 in Brent, London. Her married name was Goodchild.

I believe Ada was the youngest of four children born to William and Margaret Hanley.

Despite extensive searching, I have been unable to locate the birth certificates for Ada or her sister Elizabeth (born 1871), and so I have not been able to confirm their mother’s identity.

The birth certificates for Ada’s older brothers, Edward (1858) and William Maile (1868), both record their mother as Margaret Hanley, formerly Ward. However, they appear to name different Hanley fathers: Edward’s father was Francis (or Frank) Hanley, while William Maile’s father was William Hanley.

I have also been unsuccessful in finding baptism records for any of the children that might provide further clues.

Although I have not located a marriage record for Elizabeth, Ada’s 1902 marriage certificate does confirm William Hanley as her father, and his occupation is given as painter/decorator, which is consistent with the other records I have found.

The address at Woodchester Street also appears consistently across the records.

As for William and Margaret Hanley (possibly née Ward), I have frustratingly been unable to find a marriage certificate for them, nor any documents that definitively confirm their birth years or places of birth.

I have found a marriage certificate from 1851 for a Francis Hanley and Margaret Ward, and I have used some of the information from that record in my searches.

William and Margaret Hanley do not seem to appear together in any census before 1871. From 1871 to 1911, they are listed either with their children or on their own.

William’s place of birth varies across the censuses, ranging from different boroughs in London to County Cork on the 1911 census.

Margaret’s place of birth also changes from census to census, with Marylebone, Ireland, and County Mayo all appearing.

I would be very grateful for any guidance on where I should be looking to try to resolve the question of my great-great-grandmother’s identity and her Irish heritage, and whether County Cork might be worth investigating for William Hanley.

Many thanks,

Penny.

Hi Penny,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but for the past week I've been researching the records you've been looking for concerning your Hanley and Ward ancestors.

I don't have enough information to look for the birth or baptism records for William Hanley and Margaret Ward. I would need at least the first names of both their fathers and the first and maiden names of their mothers to see if birth or baptism records can be located for them in either England or Ireland.

Then too, if Margaret and family lived in Ireland and belonged to the Church of Ireland, her baptism record may not be online, or may not exist at all, as almost half of the Church of Ireland parish registers in Ireland were destroyed in the Four Courts Fire in Dublin during the Civil War in 1922.

But, the good news is I believe I found the civil registration birth indexes for Ada "Handley" and her sister Elizabeth Handley at the General Register Office (GRO) website: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

The birth index for Ada shows that her middle name was "Mayle," which I believe is the alternate spelling of Maile. Your records show that William Hanley Jr's middle name was Maile.

Ada's birth was recorded in the Kensington Registration District in the December Quarter of 1874. Her mother's maiden name is Ward.

Her birth record is found in Volume 1A, Page 4 of the GRO birth register indexes. See below:

Name: HANDLEY, ADA MAYLE

Mother's Maiden Surname: WARD

GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in KENSINGTON

Volume 01A, Page 4

Source: General Register Office Website

----

The Kensington Registration District covered portions of Middlesex and London counties.

Ada's birth was recorded in the December quarter, which means she would have been born in either October, November, or December of 1874.

I am wondering where the Maile/Mayle name comes from. There's a possibility that this is the maiden name of William's or Margaret's mother. Or, it could be the surname of a close friend of William and Margaret.

Below is the GRO birth index for Elizabeth Handley, whose birth was recorded in the Kensington Registration District in the March quarter of 1871. Her mother's maiden name is Ward.

Elizabeth's birth is recorded in Volume 1A, Page 6 of the GRO birth register indexes:

Name: HANDLEY, ELIZABETH

Mother's Maiden Surname: WARD

GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in KENSINGTON

Volume 01A, Page 6

Source: General Register Office Website

----

The full birth records for Ada and Elizabeth may tell you their father's occupation and where the family had been living at the time of their births in 1871 and 1874.

You can search for birth and death indexes at the GRO website, but not marriage indexes. You'll first need to establish an account at the GRO website to begin searches for births and deaths from the year 1837.

For a video on establishing a free GRO account and searching the GRO indexes, go to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5r6vf0QbIk

Penny, I wish I could have found more information about Ada and Elizabeth's parents.

With Kind Regards,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Great to hear from you - I hope all is well.

Thank you so much for researching my Hanley ancestors! I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this,especially since my own research has not been very successful. I wish to share that I have confirmed the birth indexes you found are for my ancestors, Ada and Elizabeth - thank you !

Eager to learn more about them,I used the references you provided to obtain digital copies of their birth records yesterday evening.

I can confirm that there is a strong correlation between the addresses on the birth and census records. Furthermore,their father's occupation is documented as a decorator/house painter, which is consistent across censuses,his death certificate, and the marriage certificates I have for William Maile and Ada Margaret from 1900 &1902 respectively.

I noticed that both Ada and Elizabeth's surname is documented as Handley and not Hanley as seen on other records - I assume this was simply recorded as it was heard at the time of registration?

I am also puzzled as to why my Great Grandmother, Ada,replaced her given middle name of Mayle/ Maile with Margaret. No document other than her birth registration references 'Mayle' so I was shocked to see it recorded.

I did note that on Elizabeth's birth registration that her father William had a middle name documented - unfortunately, this is not easily readable and so I am going to do all I can to try work it out! I will try and upload it to my response for you to see.

RE William & Margaret Hanley:

I still know very little about William and Margaret. As discussed, there are significant inconsistencies in their birth years and locations across the 1871-1911 censuses.

For Margaret, 'Co. Mayo' or simply 'Ireland' is recorded until 1911, when it suddenly changes to 'Marylebone'. The 1911 census is also the first time 'Cork' appears as William's place of birth?

Having seen Ada and Elizabeth's surnames recorded differently,I will use variants in my future searches for baptismal records and for William and Margaret's marriage certificate. Obtaining this document is my next priority, as it should finally provide me with their respective father's names - although I fear this is going to be another challenge.

On the 1871 census,a son named Edward is listed, he is aged 12 (born 1859). Another son - William Maile aged 3 follows Edward, this 9 year gap between brothers is significant.

Despite searching,I have been unsuccessful in finding other children who may have been born and died in infancy during this time and so cannot currently explain the gap

I did find a birth certificate for an Edward Hanley from the 1859 period,and while his mother is Margaret Hanley (formerly Ward), his father is identified as Francis/Frank Hanley, so

I am not sure if this document is for an Edward from a different family. I will try searching again using the Handley surname.

I did however,find a 1901 admission record for Ladbroke Grove Infirmary (St. Marylebone) that seems more promising. This identifies an Edward Hanley, as a coal porter aged 42, whose father is recorded as William Hanley of Woodchester Street. This address is consistent with my Hanley family,but crucially, the record also notes that he was a Roman Catholic. This religious affiliation might help me in my search for William and Margaret in Catholic parish registers.

Given that Edward identifies as Roman Catholic, I suspect that the family would have been associated with a parish in the Paddington or Marylebone area?

Are you able to guide me on which Catholic parish registers I should prioritize for this district please ? Hopefully this will help in my search of their origins in Ireland.

I am extremely thankful for all your support and guidance, and for finding such valuable information for me on my Great Grandmother Ada, and her sister Elizabeth.

Thanks again,

Penny

Hi Dave,

Just in case you want to take a look I have uploaded the digital birth registration certificates obtained last week for Ada and Elizabeth.

Unfortunately,Elizabeth's is not as clear as Ada's which is frustrating as it includes a middle name for her father William.

I'm not sure if this name is also Mayell or whether I am just seeing this to make a connection.

Thanks,

Penny

Hi Penny,

I couldn't make out William's middle name on Elizabeth's birth certificate either. It appears that three-quarters of the birth record is in shadow. Maybe the officials at the GRO can send you another copy of the birth record that is a lot clearer.

It looks like William's middle name in the birth certificate is similar to the last name of Elizabeth, who was one of the witnesses to the March 30, 1902 marriage of John William Goodchild and Ada Margaret Hanley.

As you know William and Ada were married in the St. Mary Magdalene Church of England, Paddington.

Like marriages in the Catholic Church, marriage in the Church of England also took place in the bride's parish. Do you think it's possible that Ada and maybe some of her siblings were baptized in the St. Mary Magdalen Church of England? The church is located in Woodchester Square, Paddington.

Woodchester Street no longer exists, as far as I can determine, as the whole area in this section of London was redeveloped in the early 1960s.

The London Archives holds St. Mary Magdalene Church of England registers of baptisms, marriages, banns of marriage and confirmations. For more information go to the London Archives link at:

https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+P87~2FMMG?SESSIONSEARCH

For more information about The London Archives, go to: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/a/A13532670

Here is a photo of the St. Mary Magdalene Church of England, Paddington, Woodchester Square: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2774233

Concerning Catholic Churches in the Paddington, Marylebone, and Kensington areas of London:

In Kensington there is the Our Lady of Victories Roman Catholic Church, 235a Kensington High Street, London, W8 6SA.

This church opened on 2 July 1869.

The website for the church can be found at: https://www.ourladyofvictories.net/

For a history of the church, go to: https://www.ourladyofvictories.net/history.html

According to an AI search, the London Metropolitan Archives does not hold the parish registers of baptisms and marriages for Our Lady of Victories Roman Catholic Church.

See below for the results of the AI search:

Parish Registers for Our Lady of Victories, Kensington

The London Metropolitan Archives (LMA) do not hold the parish registers for the Our Lady of Victories Roman Catholic Church at 235a Kensington High Street, W8 6SA.

According to the Westminster Diocesan Archives, which are based next to the church, they do hold some baptism and marriage registers from parishes within the diocese, but these are part of their own collection and not part of the LMA’s holdings Diocese of Westminster. The LMA’s family history resources focus on Church of England parish registers and other London-wide records, not Catholic parish registers www.thelondonarchives.org+1.

If you need the Catholic parish registers for Our Lady of Victories, you should contact the Westminster Diocesan Archives directly. They can confirm whether the specific registers you are seeking are available and whether they can be accessed in person or by request.

Contact details for Westminster Diocesan Archives Diocese of Westminster:

Website: https://rcdow.org.uk/diocesan-archives/

Address: 16a Abingdon Road, Kensington, London W8 6AF

Email: archivist@rcdow.org.uk

Phone: +44 (0)207 938 3580 (calls only during office hours on Mondays and Wednesdays)

Tip: If you are researching family history, you may also want to check the Catholic Family History Society or the Diocese of Westminster’s own website for guidance on accessing Catholic parish records.

END OF AI RESULTS

----

The website for the Catholic Family History Society is: Catholic Family History Society - England and Wales - Organisation

This Google Map shows that the Our Lady of Victories Roman Catholic Church in Kensington is south of Woodchester Square.

To the east of Woodchester Square is the Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Marylebone. See the Google Map: https://tinyurl.com/mr2687u3

The website for the Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church in Marylebone can be accessed at: https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/marylebone/

The church dates from the year 1855. You can read a history of the church at: https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/marylebone/about-the-parish/

The London Metropolitan Archives does not hold the parish registers for the Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church. According to another AI search, the parish registers for the church would be housed with the Diocese of London’s archives, or the Catholic Church of England’s parish records.

See below for the results of the AI search:

Parish Registers for Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Marylebone

The London Metropolitan Archives (formerly the London Record Office) holds the original Church of England parish registers for St Marylebone, which includes the historic parish of Marylebone. This covers baptisms, marriages, and burials from the early 17th century to the present Westminster City Council.

The Church of Our Lady of the Rosary is a non‑conformist (Roman Catholic) church, not part of the Church of England. The London Metropolitan Archives’ parish register collection is limited to Church of England Anglican registers Westminster City Council. Therefore, Catholic parish registers — including those for Our Lady of the Rosary — are not held in the London Metropolitan Archives.

For Catholic parish registers, you would need to contact the local diocese (in this case, the Diocese of London) or the Catholic Church of England (if applicable) for access. These registers are typically held by the diocesan archives or the Catholic Church of England’s own records.

Summary:

Held by London Metropolitan Archives: Yes — for St Marylebone (Church of England Anglican registers) Westminster City Council+1.

Held by London Metropolitan Archives: No — for Our Lady of the Rosary (Catholic parish registers).

Where to look for Catholic registers: Diocese of London or Catholic Church of England records.

If you need to trace a Catholic baptism, marriage, or burial in Marylebone, start with the Diocese of London’s archives or the Catholic Church of England’s parish records.

END OF AI RESULTS

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I don't know how helpful the Diocese Archives will be, as I've never contacted them, or had reason to, as none of my ancestors came from London, or from England. For example, I don't know if the Archives will do research for you, or if you would have to search their records yourself, or hire someone to do the research for you.

Best of luck with this search Penny,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks again for your exhaustive research, source citations and analysis of the evidence for my Hanley ancestors.

I appreciate the support and guidance you have provided me throughout this journey and am extremely thankful for you locating Ada and Elizabeth's birth registrations.

These breakthroughs are vital,as the additional information will be key for my future research.

I am not asking for you to act on this, but wanted to share my recent discovery. I have attached the birth certificate for Ada's brother William Maile, as it reveals his father's middle name to also be Male!

Based on these spelling variations,I believe 'Mayell' may be the middle name recorded on Elizabeth's birth certificate.This also links to Ada's middle name of Mayle, which she later replaced with Margaret- though I am unsure if Ada was even aware that Mayle was her original middle name.

Thanks again,

Penny

Thank you Penny for the update, it's much appreciated.

Dave