Chapel

Hi Anne Marie,

I am not comfortable posting this information as the last time I posted information it appeared on the Google site for all to view. If you could provide the name of the chapel, I can probably figure it out.  

 

Thank you. It is appreciated.

 

Denise

Hello Denise 

Just saw your query and i may be able to help as i live in the parish and have carried  out many searches for our local parish priest..the chapel you refer to is in Bweeng village and this was spelled as Being in times past.however,the Catholic parish is Glantane parish and all records for the entire parish are stored in Drommahane Church. As a matter of interest Bweeng chapel was built in 1846 but all records are entered into the overall parish register in Drommahane

Have you a name that can be traced .I can check the parish records for you  but need at least one name.,preferably the brides name. the fact that the marriage took place in Bweeng would indicate that the bride was from that part of the parish. 

get back to me soon as possible as holiday time is aproaching

Regards

Donie O Sullivan

 

Hi Donie,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my query. It is really appreciated. The information you shared is very helpful. 

 

 The name of the bride was Margaret Cremin.   Was a marriage in Ireland at the time i.e. 25 Nov 1889  a religous and legal marriage or just a religious marriage? If you have the groom's name and his parents and her parents. Thank you.

 

Will your response be posted to Google or does the new privacy rules prevent this being shared?

Denise 

Hello Denise

I have some news for you.

Margaret Cremin married Daniel Lyons on 26th.November 1890 in Bweeng (Beeing) chapel.There is some confusion  as 1889 has also been stated but the registered marriage details are correct.Generally the marriage took place in the brides home church and a form was filled out and signed as the official state civil record and was handed to the Register for the district.

Margaret aged 28,was a farmers daughter from the townland of Gurranes and Daniel aged 24,was a farmers son from the townland of Esk,both in Kilshannig parish.Margarets father was Denis Cremin and Daniels father was Michael Lyons.The Cremins  were plentiful in the Bweeng catchment area and the Lyons were numerouse around Esk.

The witnesses were Michael Lyons and Ellen Cremin.

I will try to get more on both sets of parents

Regards

Donie

Hi Donie,

 

Most excellent. Thank you so much. This means a lot to me. I am so grateful as this has been part of a roadblock.

The name of Daniel's mother would be most helpful in my search as there seem to be many Daniel Lyon's in New York with a father's name of Michael. His mother's name is not on his NY death certificate but Michael is on it.  Without his mother's name, it has not been successful.  Would information on his siblings be available as well? Is anyone remaining there in this area i.e. parish in Ireland from the Lyons side i.e.  I do not believe everyone came over here to New York, but I could be wrong. Is there some records on line I could search i.e. Griffth's validation? I have tried this but without his mother's name it has been unsuccessful. I am sorry to ask so much, but this is a very common name in New York.

I believe Margaret Cremin Lyons went to Philadelphia but again not sure. I believe they had a daughter, Julia Lyons, born in 1890 and she came to the U. S. when she was 10 years old but to Philadelphia or New Jersey. 

Does the parish keep track of those who moved abroad? Is there some way family might have keep in touch?

****There is some confusion  as 1889 has also been stated***????? ***  but the registered marriage details are correct.Generally the marriage took place in the brides home church and a form was filled out and signed as the official state civil record and was handed to the Register for the district.****Is this a legal marriage in Ireland? Whose parrish was this?   I am sorry but I am confused. 

Again, thank you this means so much to me especially the information in the parish as my relatives did not speak of this.

Denise

Hello Denise

when a marriage takes place in a Catholic church there is a religious ceremony and it is also recorded as a civil  legal contract .The bride, groom, sponsors and priest fill out and sign a legal document confirming the legal state laws of a marriage.This document is then handed to the  state Registrar who signs it and records the details and a copy sent to Dublin for recording there also. Registeration of births,marriages and deaths only commenced in 1864. The registrar who signed Daniel and Margarets certificate was the local dispensary doctor based in Glantane and it was compulsory to notify this registrar within 3 months of the event. Birth dates are sometimes incorrectly recorded  and this may have happened with your ancestor and the date in 1890 and 1900.If the birth is not notified within the 3 months the parents would give a date that was within 3 months so the baptismal record is the most reliable.

I am thinking along these lines because of Julias birth in 1890 or perhaps she was born before the marriage which is very unlikely. i came across her baptism on 9th Sept.1890 with sponsors Michael and  Julia Cremin.There seems to be only one child baptised to Daniel and Margaret..

Regarding Daniel Lyons i looked at the baptism records for the parish and found only one Michael Lyons that matched your ancestor.This man was married to a Mary Lyons and they lived beside Esk. The only difference was that  Daniels baptism was on 23rd.March1860  giving him an age of 30 in 1890 while his marriage cert says he was 24 but this was a ommon error .He had siblings, Julia bapt.16.June 1858, John 4.4.1862.

The baptismal records for Margared are not so clear as there are 3 viable options for parents.

1-. Denis Cremin and Ellen o Brien from Bweeng area . Baptised 3.3.1853. so aged  37 when married

2-Denis and Margaret Callaghan  bapt30 Aug.1848.aged  42 when married.

3-Denis and Catherine McCarthy .bapt. 13may 1855. aged 35 when married.

You may have some info that could tie in one of these options. Margaret s age on marriage cert is 28 but this could also be subjective.

There is one website  that is worth looking up and this is "irishgenealogy.ie" that holds many registeration records but not all of them..another site worth checking is located in the NLI (national library of Ireland) and find the parish  records and Glantane parish baptism are there but a difficult site to search.

I had a look at Griffiths valuation records for Monanveel in Kilshannig parish and see a Daniel Lyons senior and his son farming there in 1852 so it is probable that the elder would be 

a father to Michael. as your Daniel was baptised for Monanveel.. Kilshannig was the name of the protestant and civil administritive parish when England ruled  and  old records are recorded under that name while catholic records are under Glantane parish.

I also looked at Esk townland and a Michael Lyons was a major landowner there in Griffiths valuation of 1852. I doubt this was daniels father because of the townlnd.

There is at least one Lyons living from that area of the parish.

Hope this is of some benefit to you

 

 

Hi Donie,

 

Wow again. You have been extremely helpful. 

I have a possibliity of Margaret Cremin born 22 Jul 1862 with sisters were Ellen, Mary, Catherine, Hanorah, Johanna, and Kate and brother Michael.  I was also told her father was Denis and her mother Julia and Julia, daughter to Margaret and Daniel Lyons, was named after her maternal grandmother. Further, I was told that Margaret came to Philadelphia but no confirmation of that information. They did not live together here NY, USA which I thought was strange. I wondered if the Daniel Lyons is his birth name or the name he chose to use. 

I have Daniel Lyons with a birth date on his naturalization papers of March 14, 1868 or 1869 noting he was born in the city of Eck. I thought it was Cork but your information about the town makes what I thought was Cork to be Eck with arrival in NY 1890,  I was told Daniel's mother's name was Johanna Hayslip but cannot confirm that information. I was also told his mother's name was Ellen Mahoney also cannot confirm.  The Daniel Lyons name  remains a difficult one to match to his parents as I noted his mother's name does not appear in any documentation here in the United States. I only have his father's name of Michael. 

There is at least one Lyons living from that area of the parish.*** Do you have any contact with this person?  Is there any way I could contact the remaining Lyons family by email to see if they have any family history or memory of Daniel leaving for the US.  I was told Daniel's sisters visited here in NY but also cannot confirm this information. 

Thanks again. This is more than I thought I would find out.

 

Denise

hello Denise

Margaret Cremin-No record of her baptism in 1862. I searched for her siblings and found nothing to match the list you had ,however,i did find a Denis Cremin and a Julie Ryan had similar children,Ellen 1864, Mary 1867, Catherine 1869, Honora 1872, but no Margaret .This family are a close fit and would your information be mixing up 2 families ? This family lived in the same area Gurranes. Note that Catherine and Kate are the same name so that rules out one sibling

I will look further again and zone in on Daniel

donie

 

hello Denise

Margaret Cremin-No record of her baptism in 1862. I searched for her siblings and found nothing to match the list you had ,however,i did find a Denis Cremin and a Julie Ryan had similar children,Ellen 1864, Mary 1867, Catherine 1869, Honora 1872, but no Margaret .This family are a close fit and would your information be mixing up 2 families ? This family lived in the same area Gurranes. Note that Catherine and Kate are the same name so that rules out one sibling

I will look further again and zone in on Daniel

donie

 

Denise

I have looked over records for Daniel lyons.The one already mentioned born 23 march 1860 to Michael and Mary Lyons  in Monanveel which is beside Esk seems very likely .

They also had Julia 1858, and a John in 1862.

The Julia born in 1990 is an enigma as her parents, Daniel and Margaret got married  later in the year.

I will try and meet the lyons ,still alive from the Esk area. i can also check out the cemetery in Lyre where many of the people from Esk/monanveel area are buried.

I assume you are living in USA

Regards

Donie

Hi Done,

 

Wow... I am again so grateful. 

You care correct. I live in Miami, Florida, USA originally from NY.  I have been to Cork and other parts of Ireland years ago but did not have this information that I have now at that time. The information on the parents i.e. Denis Cremin and Julia Ryan Cremin and the siblings from Margaret Cremin are from Julia Lyons Shields' granddaughter who has been in contact with me. We are both trying to see how we are connected by DNA with Daniel Lyons that she has in her tree and the Daniel Lyons I have in my ancestry tree. She has different information on him than I have from my search and information from here in the U. S. She can trace the information on Margaret Cremin Lyons here in the US but not in Ireland. The siblings for Margaret are from her family information on Margaret. I have to ask her where she obtained the information as it may be from ancestry and not from her family directly. As I noted, I only have a few details i.e. place of birth Cork, Ireland and date I gave you with father Michael but no mother's name. 

 

Again, thank you so much as i try to go around this road block  :)

 

Denise 

 

Hi Donie,

 

P. S. Could Margaret really be Mary Margaret????   Denise

Hello, Denise,

My family is from this area and I have collected some hints that may help you go backwards from your Daniel Lyons and Margaret Cremin. I found their marriage registry on www.irishgenealogy.ie dated 29 Nov 1889. Bride from Gureanns (which must be Gurranes) with father Denis Cremin and groom from Esk with father Michael Lyons. In fact I have a spreadsheet with quite a few Cremins and Lyonses listed. You can email me ignazthecat at gmail and I will send you a page of Lyons and Cremins that you can sort through. We probably have a few connections but it is difficult to elucidate them as records are lean prior to civil registration.  I'm in California. My focus has been on Kellehers in Glantane and Beenalaght as well as Lyons in Aghabullogue. Perhaps your Daniel & Margaret emigrated not long after marriage as they disappear from my search results, although other Lyons from Esk are among the results. Some Lyons of Esk married Kellehers of Courtbrack, but I have not firmly established my family connections to these two families.

There are others researching these families. Gimme holler if you want contacts. No doubt you still have some distant cousins living near Beeing/Bweeng in Glantane and Donoughmore.  However, in spite of their natural curiosity, the Irish do not seem so fascinated with genealogy.  Donie has offered exceptional assistance to me in the past, done great work with www.historicgraves.ie and with the 1916 anniversary celebrations. He is a credit to his community. He may not be better than the bold Fenian men, but I think he is a great one.

CraIgnaz

 

BTW, irishgenealogy has two civil registry pages for the marriage of Daniel Lyons and Margaret Cremin, one dated 1889 and the other dated 1890. It appears they married 1889 but the pp did not send the information to the civil register until February 1890 and mistakenly wrote "1890" on the register. THe certificate dated 1889 which has only their marriage on it must have been a correction of the 1890 date that was in error.  This would explain the child being born legitimately before the 1890 marriage date. See attachments.

Craigk

Hell again 

it must be a small world we live in ,I did some research for Craig Kelleher a few years ago and it is amazing that that has re-surfaced.

It would not be unusual to have two christian names but generally they would be recorded on baptism and civil records.it would also be posible to have a baptism name and a different name in use generally as a child could be identified by her mothers or grandmothers christian names.Normally the first name is the one used in recordings even where the family used the second name themselves  so ff the name was mary margaret then she would be recorded as Mary or Mary Margaret but if the names were reversed she would be recorded as margaret or Margaret Mary.

A site worth looking into is contained within the National library of Ireland  and it holds some records for most parishes.log into nli.ie and then look for catholic parish registers.

this site is difficult to negotiate, the records are indistinct and are listed on double columns 

Good hunting

Donie

Hi Craig,

Donie has offered exceptional assistance to me in the past, done great work with www.historicgraves.ie and with the 1916 anniversary celebrations. He is a credit to his community. He may not be better than the bold Fenian men, but I think he is a great one.  ** I could not have said it better. I try each time I read his information to put into words how grateful  I am and awesome he is and should note his dedication is without question. Thank you for posting this information.  I will email you.  

Hi Donie,

As I have noted, I continue to be very grateful.

Hi Craig, and Donie, 

This is the dilemma that I have tried to explain, but may not have communicated it as well as I perhaps could have.  I am related to a member on ancestry through DNA. She has a Daniel Lyons with a Margaret Cremin and daughter Julia who came to the US in PA and NJ area,  I have a Daniel Lyons who came to NY and has a different wife and children. I am from the NY branch. We share DNA, and I am trying to figure out how. Since I do not have Daniel Lyons mother's name and a variety of different birth dates, it has been difficult. I have contacted various older members of the family, but no one can provide a date of marriage nor can I locate one that perhaps would have a mother's name for Daniel Lyons.

I have a copy of a naturalization paper that I believe notes the city Esk/Eck, and we were told he came from Cork, Ireland in 1890.  He came to the US May 11, 1890 to NY age 28 in 1897 or birth year 1869.  In other documents he gave birth date of March 14 1868. I am trying to understand if the member on Ancestry, and I are in fact descended from the same Daniel Lyons who was married in Ireland to another women i.e. Margaret Cremin.  This is a large extended family I descend from, and  I want to be very sure. As I am not a geneaologist, the search has not been easy. I may have to hire one who is familar with this area.

Denise

 

 

Hi Craig,

 

ignazthecfat@gmail.com      This email had a failure notice.

 

Denise

Hi Denise,

Try ignazthecat at the good old gmail. I think you added an 'f' in error.

There was a Cremins linked to a search I did but they were from Beenalaght and Boola. Have you downloaded your raw DNA data and uploaded to GEDMatch? GEDMatch will compare your Ancestry DNA to other folks' DNA that use 23andMe or other tests. It can give you more matches than just Ancestry. It may help you sort which sections of DNA you and your matches share better than Ancestry.

There weren't a lot of families on the 1901 & 1911 censi in Esk, so there were even fewer in 1889 and before. The hard part is getting past this generation as you've found but since there are only a few options, you may be able to triangulate a little based on some of the records in my spreadsheet.  I spent hours scanning the Catholic registers, rootsireland and irishgenealogy.ie to discover possible Kellehers, Lyons, etc. Knowing Daniel Lyons was from Esk is an immense hurdle as the townland is often the hardest thing to find for Irish American ancestors. Luckily you have a marriage doc and naturalization so should be confident that Daniel Lyons was from Esk. Gurranes seems harder to grasp as there is a Garrane near Macroom, a Garraun near Firmount, but there is also a Garrane at Nadd, which has Glantane and Lombardstown to the north and Bweeng/Beeing to the south. Proximity to Beeing Cross makes this a good candidate. Your family seemed to surround Bweeng Mountain.  THe area of Garrane, Lombardstown is very near where Frank Busteed and the Sixth Battalion Cork No. 1 Brigade executed and buried Mrs. Lindsay and her chauffer for her betrayal of the Dripsey Ambush. John Lyons from Aghabullogue was captured and executed for his participation in the Ambush. Very controversial bit of local history. 

Searching for "Garranes" I found this cool site http://www.thememorytrail.com/content/irish-historic-homes-survey which has a Lyons home in Garranes, a project for which Donie lead the survey team. Proving his heroism in recording the history of the area. 

http://www.thememorytrail.com/place/3108

THere are Cremins in my research but mainly from Beenalaght and Boola.

Craigk

Hello Folks

Noted with interest the connection with Lyons home  above .This house is in Gortavoher townland and these lyons ,I suggest are a different family to those in Esk and Monanveel.

There is only one Gurranes in the parish of Kilshannig so the others should be disregarded.This one is North west of Bweeng and would be associated with the Bweeng church area and this is why Margaret Cremin got married in Bweeng(Beeing). Gurranes would be between Lombardstown and Bweeng.

I made an enquiry and the Cremins from Gurranes seem to have died out or migrated from the townland but cousins still live in adjacent townlands. I will contact 2 Lyons families from Esk/Monanveel areas .

I have looked again at the parish register of baptisms and noted 

1-1860.Michael Lyons baptised to Daniel and Mary lyons.

2-1854.Daniel Lyons  baptised to Daniel Lyons and Abby Callaghan in Monanveel.      Also a son Michael in 1859

3-1862. Daniel Lyons Baptised to John Lyons and Johanna Buckley.

4-1877. Daniel Lyons baptised to John Lyons and Mary Murphy|.

5-1860-Daniel Lyons Baptised  to Richard Lyons and Mary Lyons.

6-1840. Daniel Lyons baptised to daniel Lyons and Bess Keeffe.

No other Michael Lyons so did Daniels parents move  in to Esk  and if so was Daniel born elsewhere and married from Esk. Perhaps the search should be widened to neighbouring parishes..

Donie

 

 

Did a quick search and found a Daniel Lyons born to Michael Lyons and  Johanna Hayslip in Newmarket on 23 Jan.1868 which is about  15 miles from Esk and he is described as a labourer.If this is the corect Daniel then a lot of questions are answered. Labourers were mobile in those days especially ones with certain skills. you mentioned this Hayslip lady to me but I was concentrating in Kilshannig parish so hopefully this hepls

Donie

Hi Donie,

 

Wow...wow.. Again you have exceeded my hopes and expectations.  :)   

 

In the US he described himself as a laborer if this is his correct papers. I am now beginning to question the papers from the US as this is built on perhaps erroneous family information.

The information I have is not confirmed on Johanna Hayslip for Daniel's mother. I found out this information only recently from the connection in Ancestry through our DNA when that member asked me about my great grandmother Daniel Lyons as we share DNA. I did not have Daniel Lyons mother's name. One relative thought it was Ellen Mahony. 

My relative married and/or lived with Jennie Miller and had nine children. I am descended from that branch. I was hoping to verify the correct Daniel perhaps a cousin to her Daniel and that would be how we are DNA related. I am already on 23 and Me but have not come across this connection or the same one I did on ancestry. Thank you for the tip about the GED match.  The information the ancestry member provided, again most recently, has the same names for the sisters of Margaret Cremin as all of my great aunts.  This is also strange as this is not what you provided on sibs of Margaret Cremin. Her family tree as sibs for Margaret Cremin were Ellen, Mary, Catherine, Hanorah, Johanna, and Kate and brother Michael. These are all the names of my great aunts and great uncle.  This confused me even more. I have asked her where she obtained this information and await a response. I am not sure if it is from direct family info or her research search. 

 

Can you suggest other parishes to connect with here or can you do that also?  I am sorry to ask so many questions, but I am learning about Ireland. I am hoping to return in summarr 2019 to go to the site of his birth. I will next begin with the Duffy side that is also a very common name. However, I have more information on them with mother's names. We want to go to that part of Ireland as well. 

Again, thank you. This means the world to me. :)  I appreciate your passion to help those of us "lost over here in the US" and want to connect and honor those who came before us from Ireland. 

Denise

Denise.

I take it that this Daniel is the correct one and his father was a labourer. When getting married his father is described as a farmer in a totally different location so how did this happen?

Did Michael inherit a farm or part of a farm from his own father or an uncle in Esk and if so was Michael, a labourer, living and working  in Newmarket when Daniel was born and moved back then.?  There seem to be no more siblings born in Newmarket.The original name of the parish was Clonfert and it is now Newmarket.

There is a daniel Lyons born to Michael Lyons and Ellen Mahony in 1868 in the town of Bandon which is about 40 miles away and this one is most unlikely.Somebody must have found this and 2+2 came to 5. and assumed it could be the one. This Michael was a butcher and not a labourer. "irishgenealogy.ie" site gave no other possible options for Daniel but this site is not a definitive record.

Will look at creminas later

Donie

 

 

Hi Donie, 

I take it that this Daniel is the correct one and his father was a labourer. ** The one born to Johanna Hayslip and Michael Lyons???    One of his daughter's in my branch has this name.  

When getting married his father is described as a farmer in a totally different location so how did this happen? Did Michael inherit a farm or part of a farm from his own father or an uncle in Esk and if so was Michael, a labourer, living and working  in Newmarket when Daniel was born and moved back then.?  There seem to be no more siblings born in Newmarket.The original name of the parish was Clonfert and it is now Newmarket.***  If I have the correct citizen papers, it is noted that Daniel is a laborer.  However, I am again guessing this is the correct citizen papers based on info in US that seems to verify this informaiton. 

There is a daniel Lyons born to Michael Lyons and Ellen Mahony in 1868 in the town of Bandon which is about 40 miles away and this one is most unlikely.Somebody must have found this and 2+2 came to 5. and assumed it could be the one. This Michael was a butcher and not a labourer. "irishgenealogy.ie" site gave no other possible options for Daniel but this site is not a definitive record.*** I totally agree.  have discounted this information on Ellen Mahony. 

Will look at creminas later  ** Thank you.   I will continue to do my research on this end as well with the sites you noted for Daniel Lyons. I feel at a disadvantage without his mother's name and correct birth date. Could he have been "hiding" this information i.e. mother's name and correct birth dayte as he was married to Margaret Cremin and could not legally marry my great grandmother or is this a different person. Could he have been running from something in Ireland i.e. conscprition or jail?  I wonder.....

 

Denise

Denise

If Daniel had a police record he would not gain entry to the USA unless he provided a different identity and that does not appear to have happened.

The marriage seem to be definitely 1889 and not 1890. both certificates are no.22 and it appears they were written at different times by the registrar . Birth details were sent to General reg.Office in Dublin at the end of the month or later and if you look at the dates of registeration you will see 21st February 1890 for the one for 1889 which would be normal .You will also see the Reg.date of 1890 cert as 26th February 1890 which could not be correct. so 1889 is correct year. This also gives Julias birth date legitimacy and what is interesting in this cert.is that daniel was in America for the birth and Margaret had also moved within the parish.it is difficult to decipher the lacename but it could be Gurranes but spelled incorrectly,this would make sense as Margaret could have gone back home when Daniel emigrated.I enclose a copy of that cert.his nat.papers confirm he was in USA when Julia was born so some things do fit in.It was common for husbands to emigrate ,find a job,get accommodation and then send for the family when enough money had been saved unless they had property to sell and a labourer would have very little.

I notice you say that your great grandmother was not Margaret Lyons .Do you have a namefor her and I assume Daniel Lyons was your great grandfather or am I missing something

Regards Donie

 

Hi Donie,

Thank you for this  certificate on Julia. I seem to be only connected through DNA to her great grand daughter. 

I notice you say that your great grandmother was not Margaret Lyons .Do you have a name for her and I assume Daniel Lyons was your great grandfather or am I missing something*** My great grandmother was not Margaret Cremins Lyons. I noted above my grandmother was Jennie G. Moller pronounced Miller.  They had my grandmother, Mary Lyons and I am descended from that branch. I cannot locate a marriage certificate for Daniel Lyons and Jennie MIller. They settled in NY and had nine children together with the oldest named Margaret. I also noted the other names of their children was the names that Margaret's family noted as her siblings.

Thank you for the copy of Julia's certificate. 

.I enclose a copy of that cert.his nat.papers confirm he was in USA when Julia was born so some things do fit in.It was common for husbands to emigrate ,find a job,get accommodation and then send for the family when enough money had been saved unless they had property to sell and a labourer would have very little. *** I am trying to learn when Margaret Lyons emigrated. According to that side of the family, Margaret sent for Julia when Julia was 10 years old and they settled in Philadelphia and NJ. Where Margaret Cremin Lyons was during those years before she sent for Julia is unknown to me.  Julia may not have ever known her father was close by in NY if my grandfather was her father. Her great granddaughter is trying to make the connection of the long lost Daniel. Margaret Lyons apparently never remarried or lived with my branch of the Daniel Lyons.

 

Do you want a copy of the citizen papers or the application to review?

 

Again, milliions of thanks. 

Denise

 

 

Hi Donie,

 

Was it common to have the mother's name of the groom and bride missing from the registry.

 

Denise

Denise

Daniel lyons seems to have abandoned his 1st wife margaret Cremin and because there was no Catholic divorse it is  possible  he never married  jennie Moller.

Generally the mothers name was not on marriage certs. 

Donie

Hi Donie,

 

Oh my....  I was hoping for a different outcome.

 

Is there any family left from his line that still resides in Esk, Cork, Ireland that I could contact via email or sent a letter. It does not appear that everyone came over to NY with him.

 

Thanks.

Denise

Denise

I suggested the non marriage as a possibility when you failed to find one for Daniel and Moller.

There are some lyons about and I am hoping to meet one soon.I called twice but missed him and he would have an interest in family affairs . i will try again.He is elderly and doubtful if on internet  but I will get postal address and a phone if he has one.Esk is a very isolated townland with only a few houses .Monanville townland beside Esk had a numvber of Lyons families but most have disappeared ,one left.

i cannot read the townland on Julia's birth cert and cannot find her baptism however,her birth is recorded in Kilshannig area.

Donie

Hi Donie,

Thank you so much. Perhaps he has some family information that was discussed and transmitted.  I will send a letter as opposed to calling. Please let him know I am a reputable person that has only interest in honoring my greatgrandfather in trying to resolve this mystery. Hopefully this one left would know something about the Daniel that went to NY.

 

Thank you Donie. I do not know what to say other than "thank you" for this gift of helping me.

 

Denise 

dernise

a little more to add to above communications.

I found out about an O Connell man who was supposed to be connected to the Lyons in Esk/Monanveel  and luckily I met him at a l;ocal function last night and he told me an interesting story .His mother was a lyons from that area and she was told by her mother about  an ancestor who emigrated to America but his wife did not travel with him.The story indicated she was stopped emigrating with him and it was assumed the family did not approve. This sounds like it could be about Daniel and Margaret but nothing definite. The story raises a few possibilities,was there a misthrust of Daniel, was she refused passage because of pregnancy, or was there a dispute and he absconded. I hope he will be able to find out more but there is no guarantee it is the same couple but it is interesting.

Donie

Denise,

I surveyed ALL Daniel Lyons births on the civil registers on irishgenealogy and came up with the following for a father Michael. Included are the one with mother Johanna Hayslip (coincidentally, if this is your Daniel, there were 2 other Hayslip families in Newmarket and Scarteen). I covered 1860-1870. I've scoured the catholic registers on registers.nli.ie for surrounding areas for March 1867, 1868, 1869 and found nothing matching Daniel with father Michael. As Donie mentioned, the Catholic registers are difficult to search as they are browseable but not indexed for searching. Frustrating to not find a Daniel born 14 March to father Michael among these records.

1860 23 March: Daniel  baptised to Michael Lyons and Mary lyons. Donie says they were from Monanville.

1864 Daniel born to MIchael Lyons and Catherine Reagan in Ballyhaunis, Claremorris, Mayo

1867 Daniel born to Michael Lyne and Hanoria Reardon in Killunturna, Killarney, Molahiffe, Kerry

1868 Daniel born to MIchael Lyons and Mary Quinn in Cappananty, Croom, Castletown, Limerick

1869 23 Jan: Daniel born to MIchael Lyons and Johanna Hayslip in Oxclose, Newmarket, Clonfert, Kanturk

I will email you an updated spreadsheet with the above information in it. Add the above to the list Donie provided already (and pasted below). A snippet of census for 1901 & 1911 Kilshannig and Dromore is attached to this message. You will find the Lyons families of Esk there.

Craigk

 

 

I have looked again at the parish register of baptisms and noted 

1-1860.Michael Lyons baptised to Daniel and Mary lyons.

2-1854.Daniel Lyons  baptised to Daniel Lyons and Abby Callaghan in Monanveel.      Also a son Michael in 1859

3-1862. Daniel Lyons Baptised to John Lyons and Johanna Buckley.

4-1877. Daniel Lyons baptised to John Lyons and Mary Murphy|.

5-1860-Daniel Lyons Baptised  to Richard Lyons and Mary Lyons.

6-1840. Daniel Lyons baptised to daniel Lyons and Bess Keeffe.

No other Michael Lyons so did Daniels parents move  in to Esk  and if so was Daniel born elsewhere and married from Esk. Perhaps the search should be widened to neighbouring parishes..

Donie

 

Donie O Sullivan

Friday 15th June 2018, 11:52PM

• Did a quick search and found a Daniel Lyons born to Michael Lyons and  Johanna Hayslip in Newmarket on 23 Jan.1868 which is about  15 miles from Esk and he is described as a labourer.

 

 

 

Hi Donie,

 

I found out about an O Connell man who was supposed to be connected to the Lyons in Esk/Monanveel  and luckily I met him at a local function last night and he told me an interesting story .His mother was a lyons from that area and she was told by her mother about  an ancestor who emigrated to America but his wife did not travel with him.The story indicated she was stopped emigrating with him and it was assumed the family did not approve. **** Which family?  The Cremins or the Lyons??? This sounds like it could be about Daniel and Margaret but nothing definite. The story raises a few possibilities,was there a misthrust of Daniel, was she refused passage because of pregnancy, or was there a dispute and he absconded. I hope he will be able to find out more but there is no guarantee it is the same couple but it is interesting. *** This would make sense to me i.e. either possibility. His immigration papers noted he came to NY May 11, 1890 (if I have the correct citizenship papers).  If Julia was born in 2 Sept 1890, Margaret would have been pregnant when he left. Why he came to NY, USA is not known to me.  I know Margaret later came to the US but the Ancestry DNA family does not know when.  She did not settle in NY but nearby states of NJ and PA.  I wonder if she knew where her was here in the states. I was told Daniel named his children after his relatives. However, none of the siblings that you or Craig have provided match the names of my great grandmother or great aunts.  I sent a message on Ancestry to see how she knows of Margaret Cremin Lyons siblings. 

Again, thanks so very much to you and Craig.

P. S. Do you suggest I try another parish message board? If so, which one?

Denise Lyons Duffy

 

Hello Denise

Esk is very close to Banteer parish which is also called Clonmeen  Protestant parish and may be worth checking out.There is a cemetery in that parish in Lyre village which is close to Esk that could contain Lyons burials.

Donoughmore parish is also close to Esk and does contain some lyons families and may be worth checking.

I should mention Mallow Heritage Centre  to you as this is the official records office for the diocese of Cloyne which included all parishes surrounding Kilshannig area and they would carry out a family search for Church baptisms and marriages for a fee of about 60 us dollars.I will have a talk with them and find out could they link more names to the marriage cert for Daniel and Margaret.and the birth  date for Julia as these seem to be authentic. I will contact you after this visit .

The names i gave you of Lyons in Esk/Monanveel were a Daniel,Julia and John born to Michael and Mary Lyons.The more I think about these the more I feel that this is Daniels family but the marriage of Michael and mary must have taken place in another parish as there is no record of this in Kilshannig.You say Daniel was 28 on arrival in USA and so born 1861 which is very close to the date 1860 of the Daniel above. if mary lyons was from another parish the marriage would have taken place there.You could write to the parish priest in Banteer and Donoughmore or ring them and ask if such a marriage took place.Fr.Winters is in Banteer  and Fr.O Riordan in Donoughmore and you could find their phone numbers in the parish or Diocese of Cloyne directory.

after marriage they would be likely to live in his area which would mean that they would have married in approx 1857 as Julia was born in 1858. Worth considering

Donie

 

Donie

Hi Donie,

Thank you again.  

Suggestions:

           Clonmeen  Protestant Parish

           Cemetery in Lyre

           Donoughmore parish - Fr. O'Riordan

           Cloyn Diocese Directory

           Fr.Winters is in Banteer  directory.

 

 My great grandfather has all of his nine children born here Catholic. I am not sure how contacting a protestant parish would be helpful. 

Denise 

Hello again,

In support of Donie's suggestion that Daniel came from the union of Michael Lyons and Mary Lyons of Esk are the census reports from 1901 & 1911. Daniel born March 1860 is missing from the remaining children of Michael & Mary Lyons.

Here is what I notice: 

Family of Michael Lyons and Mary Lyons of North Esk have children Julia b1858, Daniel b1860, John b1862, Michael b1867. Michael's baptism 1867 has address of North Esk.  Daniel is missing from the 1901 census, as are the parents Michael and Mary. No record of death of father Michael or mother Mary. Emigrated? 

 

I have not found a truly satisfying record for birth of Margaret Cremin, born @1871, daughter of Denis Cremin of Gurrane. Drat! 

Marriage for Michael Lyons and Mary Anne Lyons dated 17 Feb 1857  found on Mallow register 04998/02!! Of course, no parents or address listed.  THe Glountane registers at nli.ie do not have marriages. Searched for Michael & Mary marriage on Banteer, Castlemagner and Ballyclough as well as on Mallow and Glountane.

For the Monanveel family, the census has Andrew Lyons and wife Julia. Children Kate, Abina, Nora & Julia. Daughter Julia Mary united with Michael O'Connell of Lacka, Banteer in 1930. This must be the parents of the fella Donie met with. Andrew Lyons of Monanville witnessed 1879 deaths of Timothy & Daniel Lyons, both of Monanville. Another Timothy Lyons of Monanville died in 1879 witnessed by William Lyons. No relation to deceased given.  Andrew died 1919 as witnessed by daughter Kate.

 

I could not find a birth nor marriage record for Andrew Lyons of Monanville.

Craigk

 

 

 

Hi Craig,

 

Thank you so much for helpfing me. I do not know who Daniel's mother is so it is a guessing game for me. As I noted I cannot locate any documents here in the US that has his mother's name nor a relative who can confirm her name. Therefore, I am at a loss on how to confirm this information in the abscess of any DNA from a surviving living relative in Ireland if there is such a person. I can only hope something comes on line that can help me here in the US

Denise

Hello Denise and Craig

Looked at the marriage cert attached but it does not mention which parish.I also checked the Monanveel address that appears on the digitised copy for baptism of Julia and Daniel but the address does not appear on the original ledger so I do not know where the Monanveel comes from .It is beside Esk .It would be interesting to piece together  where michael and John fit in if on 1901 census records assuming they were in the area.. The transfer of ownership of property is recorded in the Land valuation Office in Dublin as change of ownership was recorded to send bills for property tax. Some day soon i will be in Dublin and will get copies of these for esk and Monanveel..these records date back to 1856  and link in with Griffiths valuations.

Donie

Denise/Craig

Craig had a difficulty locating details on Andrew lyons.The1911 census has him as 63 years old therefore a birth in about 1848.i looked at parish baptisms and a Andrew lyons was baptised on 29th january.1848 and this  seems to tie in .His parents wereDaniel Lyons and Abigail Callaghan.He had siblings Jerry Bapt.28 may 1850, Abigail bapt,5 may 1850,something not right here,Daniel bapt.23 Jan.1854, Ellen 24 Aug 1856, michael 11 may 1859, William 20 july 1861, Mary 30 march 1866,  A good Irish catholic family .some are mentiones as from Monanveel.

I checked original ledger and the dates are the same and monanveel is also noted in the originals.were they twins with one baptised later due to health problems ?

Denise I mentioned the protestant parish names because if you look up civil records they would be under the protestanf parish and not the catholic parish names.

Regards

Donie

Hi Donie,

 

I am sorry that I misunderstood the reason for reviewing the Protestant records. 

 

Your suggestions from prior email:

           Clonmeen  Protestant Parish

           Cemetery in Lyre

           Donoughmore parish - Fr. O'Riordan

           Cloyn Diocese Directory

           Fr.Winters is in Banteer  directory.

Any suggestions on how to contact these people?  I am sorry if I missed how to contact them.  Again thank you to Craig and you for assisting me. I am very grateful. Thank you for all you do.

Denise

Denise

I checked the records for these two parishes and found nothing so nothing to be gained  by contacting them. I also visited the Diocese office in mallow but they could do little  with the lack of information. You can search free of charge most of the Catholic parish records in the nli,ie weblite and locate parish records in family history research. Enter the Catholic parish name and the available years appear and select the file you need. the parishes surrounding Glantane are Donoughmore,Aghabollogue,Banteer,Ballyclough,Castlemagner ,Mallow, Mourne Abbey,Coachford. They are difficult to search and appear in 2 columns. 

Donie

Hi Donie,

 

I understand and I thank you for all you have done and are doing.  The lack of information to narrow the search has and continues to be an issue. 

I will give your suggestions a try. However, I do not hold out much  hope as I do not have a mother's name or an accurate date of birth.

Denise 

Hi Donie and Craig,

 

I found out about an O Connell man who was supposed to be connected to the Lyons in Esk/Monanveel  and luckily I met him at a local function last night and he told me an interesting story .His mother was a lyons from that area and she was told by her mother about  an ancestor who emigrated to America but his wife did not travel with him.The story indicated she was stopped emigrating with him and it was assumed the family did not approve. **** Which family?  The Cremins or the Lyons??? This sounds like it could be about Daniel and Margaret but nothing definite. The story raises a few possibilities,was there a misthrust of Daniel, was she refused passage because of pregnancy, or was there a dispute and he absconded. I hope he will be able to find out more but there is no guarantee it is the same couple but it is interesting. *** This would make sense to me i.e. either possibility. His immigration papers noted he came to NY May 11, 1890 (if I have the correct citizenship papers).  If Julia was born in 2 Sept 1890, Margaret would have been pregnant when he left. Why he came to NY, USA is not known to me.  I know Margaret later came to the US but the Ancestry DNA family does not know when.  She did not settle in NY but nearby states of NJ and PA.  I wonder if she knew where her was here in the states. I was told Daniel named his children after his relatives. However, none of the siblings that you or Craig have provided match the names of my great grandmother or great aunts.  I sent a message on Ancestry to see how she knows of Margaret Cremin Lyons siblings.I am attaching what I believe is my great grandfather's NY Naturalization Petition for review in an attempt to narrow down his brith date with the information you have.

Question:

Did you have to produce a birth certificate or baptismal certificate to get married in 1889?  Here in the states, it is required for a Catholic marriage.

Where did Margaret Cremin and Daniel Lyons live after they were married in 1889 and before he emigranted to NY, US in 1890?

 

Thank you so much.

 

Denise

Denise

The nationalisation paper for Daniel seems correct and the county definitely seems to be Esk rather than cork so you have the correct Daniel. Generally the couple would have resided in the grooms residence which could be with his parents or another house owned by them or him.They could also rent or buy a house locally.Being from a farming family it is very likely they lived in Esk,however,if an older brother was inheriting the farm then daniel may have been a farm labourer with another farmer who may have accommodation available for farm workers so it is very uncertain where they lived.

You did not send the birth cert for their daughter Julia ,The baptism record does not state an address but I would guess it is Gurranes.

When getting married  both parties had to get a letter o f "freedom" from their parish priest where they were born based on their baptism to ensure they were notalready married and the priest kept a note of such marriage. A problem with Glantane parish records exists because weddings and baptisms took place in 3 different churches and it seems that not all events were recorded in the central ledger. As civil records were recorded also there would be a much more comprehensive recordings there.

In Daniels journey to USA did he state to whom he was visiting as most people had to name someone or their destination.

Not much help here.

Donie

 

Denise

I met the wife of Denis O Connell who I met a few weeks ago,and she recalls her mother in law (lyons)telling her about the lyons who emigrated to USA  without his wife.Her version is that the Cremin family prevented her leaving with her husband because she was pregnant. She also seems to think that their daughter Julia  and wife Margaret did not emigrate  and was unaware they emigrated later.if julia emigrated at 10 then she would have gone in c 1900. I will check if the school roll books at that time exist  to check her attendances. There is another lyons that i hope to meet but called twice but met no one.

Donie

Hi Donie,

You did not send the birth cert for their daughter Julia ***   I am attaching it here. It was provided by Margaret Cremin Lyons great granddaughter.

 

In Daniels journey to USA did he state to whom he was visiting as most people had to name someone or their destination.*** I have not come across this information in my search so far. He lived and worked in Manhattan and Brooklyn. The boroughs were not as defined as they are now. We thought he married my great grandmother, Jennie Moller/Miller as they had nine children together. I am from that branch. It only came to my attention through a DNA match question and the fact I could never locate a marriage certificate. I will see if I can locate that information.

Thanks for all you are doing.   I feel so bad that this is a real possiblity. I cannot imagine leaving a child and wife in another country. Margaret Cremin Lyons great granddaughter told me Julia came over here when she was 10 years old.  I cannot imaine he did not marry my great grandmother. This was a really big secret that he and possibly she kept from all of us. NJ and Philadelphia are not that far away. I do not know if she knew where he was or if she visited. I do not believe Julia Lyons knew her father lived that close but I could be wrong.

Denise 

 

Denise

no further news however have you looked at the USA census records and what was his partner described as.I see that in his application for citizenship he is residing in 5 newsbank ark ? and miller will be his witness living at 3 newsbank ark? i assume his partners father..

Donie

Hi Donie,

I have looked at the address. It is 5 Nostrand Avenue and we assume that Thorvald Miller is my great grandmother's brother who lived at 3 Nostrand Ave.  

I also noted that my Ancestry contact has a sister for Margaret Cremin Lyons i.e. Ellen Cremin married a Ocallaghan. the Irish Census for and was in the St. Finbar Cork parish as a Cremin The Irish Census for 1901 has Julia Lyons age 10 living with Denis Cremin and Ellen Ocallaghan, Kate Cremin, Hannah Cremin, William O'Callaghan age 30 and Denis Ocallaghan 32.  The are al in the Knockavoddra Kilshanning Cork Township. These relatives are all the ones the my ancestry contact provided to me. In addition all of my great aunts have the same names. Go figure...

Questions:

1) Do they Ocallaghan's still live in Cork?  Ellen's descendents might know of Julia Lyons and the family issue as Julia lived with her  i.e. when Margaret Cremin Lyons went to USA and if she tried to locate my great grandfather and then went on to Philadphilphia and NJ.  As I noted the first child of Daniel and my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller is named Margaret. The others have the same names as the Cremin family female members.

2) Were you able to locate any informaiton on Julia's school?

 

This remains a mystery.  Thanks so much. 

Denise 

 

Hi Donie,

I have looked at the address. It is 5 Nostrand Avenue and we assume that Thorvald Miller is my great grandmother's brother who lived at 3 Nostrand Ave.  

I also noted that my Ancestry contact has a sister for Margaret Cremin Lyons i.e. Ellen Cremin married a Ocallaghan. the Irish Census for and was in the St. Finbar Cork parish as a Cremin The Irish Census for 1901 has Julia Lyons age 10 living with Denis Cremin and Ellen Ocallaghan, Kate Cremin, Hannah Cremin, William O'Callaghan age 30 and Denis Ocallaghan 32.  The are al in the Knockavoddra Kilshanning Cork Township. These relatives are all the ones the my ancestry contact provided to me. In addition all of my great aunts have the same names. Go figure...

Questions:

1) Do they Ocallaghan's still live in Cork?  Ellen's descendents might know of Julia Lyons and the family issue as Julia lived with her  i.e. when Margaret Cremin Lyons went to USA and if she tried to locate my great grandfather and then went on to Philadphilphia and NJ.  As I noted the first child of Daniel and my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller is named Margaret. The others have the same names as the Cremin family female members.

2) Were you able to locate any informaiton on Julia's school?

 

This remains a mystery.  Thanks so much. 

Denise 

 

Hi Donie,

I have looked at the address. It is 5 Nostrand Avenue and we assume that Thorvald Miller is my great grandmother's brother who lived at 3 Nostrand Ave.  

I also noted that my Ancestry contact has a sister for Margaret Cremin Lyons i.e. Ellen Cremin married a Ocallaghan. the Irish Census for and was in the St. Finbar Cork parish as a Cremin The Irish Census for 1901 has Julia Lyons age 10 living with Denis Cremin and Ellen Ocallaghan, Kate Cremin, Hannah Cremin, William O'Callaghan age 30 and Denis Ocallaghan 32.  The are al in the Knockavoddra Kilshanning Cork Township. These relatives are all the ones the my ancestry contact provided to me. In addition all of my great aunts have the same names. Go figure...

Questions:

1) Do they Ocallaghan's still live in Cork?  Ellen's descendents might know of Julia Lyons and the family issue as Julia lived with her  i.e. when Margaret Cremin Lyons went to USA and if she tried to locate my great grandfather and then went on to Philadphilphia and NJ.  As I noted the first child of Daniel and my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller is named Margaret. The others have the same names as the Cremin family female members.

2) Were you able to locate any informaiton on Julia's school?

 

This remains a mystery.  Thanks so much. 

Denise 

 

Hi Donie,

I have looked at the address. It is 5 Nostrand Avenue and we assume that Thorvald Miller is my great grandmother's brother who lived at 3 Nostrand Ave.  

I also noted that my Ancestry contact has a sister for Margaret Cremin Lyons i.e. Ellen Cremin married a Ocallaghan. the Irish Census for and was in the St. Finbar Cork parish as a Cremin The Irish Census for 1901 has Julia Lyons age 10 living with Denis Cremin and Ellen Ocallaghan, Kate Cremin, Hannah Cremin, William O'Callaghan age 30 and Denis Ocallaghan 32.  The are al in the Knockavoddra Kilshanning Cork Township. These relatives are all the ones the my ancestry contact provided to me. In addition all of my great aunts have the same names. Go figure...

Questions:

1) Do they Ocallaghan's still live in Cork?  Ellen's descendents might know of Julia Lyons and the family issue as Julia lived with her  i.e. when Margaret Cremin Lyons went to USA and if she tried to locate my great grandfather and then went on to Philadphilphia and NJ.  As I noted the first child of Daniel and my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller is named Margaret. The others have the same names as the Cremin family female members.

2) Were you able to locate any informaiton on Julia's school?

 

This remains a mystery.  Thanks so much. 

Denise 

 

Hi Donie,

I have looked at the address. It is 5 Nostrand Avenue and we assume that Thorvald Miller is my great grandmother's brother who lived at 3 Nostrand Ave.  

I also noted that my Ancestry contact has a sister for Margaret Cremin Lyons i.e. Ellen Cremin married a Ocallaghan. the Irish Census for and was in the St. Finbar Cork parish as a Cremin The Irish Census for 1901 has Julia Lyons age 10 living with Denis Cremin and Ellen Ocallaghan, Kate Cremin, Hannah Cremin, William O'Callaghan age 30 and Denis Ocallaghan 32.  The are al in the Knockavoddra Kilshanning Cork Township. These relatives are all the ones the my ancestry contact provided to me. In addition all of my great aunts have the same names. Go figure...

Questions:

1) Do they Ocallaghan's still live in Cork?  Ellen's descendents might know of Julia Lyons and the family issue as Julia lived with her  i.e. when Margaret Cremin Lyons went to USA and if she tried to locate my great grandfather and then went on to Philadphilphia and NJ.  As I noted the first child of Daniel and my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller is named Margaret. The others have the same names as the Cremin family female members.

2) Were you able to locate any informaiton on Julia's school?

 

This remains a mystery.  Thanks so much. 

Denise 

 

Hi Denise,

In 1899, Ellen Cremin (dau of Denis) married William O'Callaghan (son of William), both of Graunes (weird spelling as on Margaret's birth registry). Surely there are Callaghans still in Cork. A William Callaghan family owns the Longueville House just north of Lombardstown. The Longueville O'Callaghans have a 'shiny' history in rebellion against the imperialists, Donie may know more about them. It isn't clear to me if there were multiple William Callaghans or how the Longueville Callaghans relate to the Gurrane Callaghans.  I believe the Longueville Callaghans have conducted genealogical research as they are of landed gentry. But our Callaghan ancestors were farmers, not viscounts. Have the family descendants of Ellen Cremin and William Callaghan done much research on the family?  An obituary of Michael, the hotelier of Longueville: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/innovative-hotelier-an…

The Longueville B&B looks like a great place to stay: https://dubmantalks.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/longueville-house-old-worl…

My family contains Callaghans of Gurranes so your post caught my eye. My GGF John Kelleher of Beenalaght married Abbie Sullivan of Courtbrack. Abbie's mother was Johanna/Hannah Callaghan, daughter of Daniel Callaghan and Johanna Dennehy/Denahy of Gurranes/Richill/Ahadillane, according to my research. My Callaghans of Gurrane/Rich Hill/Ahadallane (all of these places seem to have spelling options) appear on Donoughmore or Macroom Catholic parishes however. When my Kelleher family sold their farm in Beenalaht in 1935, it was Mick Callaghan, son of Maurice of Gloundine, who bought the lands of Beenalaght. I did not find a William Callaghan in the children of Daniel Callaghan & Johanna Denahy. I have barely scratched the surface on my Callaghan searches. Who knows...we may have some cousinry connection via these Callaghans.

There are some cool maps here:  https://corkcoco.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?useExisting=1

You can zoom in and see there are roads north of Bweeng Cross and Knockavoddra showing both Gurranes and Garrane and west to Esk and Monaville. Pics attached. The second map attached "Gurranes Bweeng Mallow Map" has red pin at Gurranes.

Craigk

Denise/Craig

I have not looked at the Cremin side so I took a quick peek and yes julia was in Knovkavaddra in 1901 but her mother is missing so the rumour I got was correct when i was told that Julia did not emigrate with her mother but must have done so later. She was left in the care of the Cremin family in Knockavaddra and so could have gone to one of 3 schools.I checked Laharan rolls back to 1899 but not there .the others will be more difficult as they closed over 50 years ago and the summer holidays have started so rolls cannot be sought until September. Knockavaddra townland is near to Gurranes .It seems that the Cremins who were farmers, moved from Gurranes in 1889 to Knockavaddra by 1901, a bit unusual for farmers 

.I checked the parish baptisms and did not find a match for the Cremins so they may have been born elsewhere. gain unusual for farmers 

It appears Margaret emigrated in 1901 or earlier.I know one of the Cremins from near Gurranes and will ring him as he lives 150 miles away and is interested in family.

Craig was enquiring about O Callaghans ,the parish is full of them and the O Callaghans in Longfield House did not build it ,it was built by wealthy english landlords by the name of Longfield in c.1720 and the O callaghans,local farmers bougt and married in there less than one hundred years ago. Dromineen Castle in this parish,was the stronghold of the O callaghans since about 1300 AD until dispossessed by Cromwell in c 1660.the castle is now a ruin. O Callaghan Cashel was king of  Munster which is about a quarter of Ireland, about 1,000 years ago. The O Callaghans would be a very difficult family to track ,they are so numerous.

Regards Donie

 

Hi Donie,

I located Ellen Ocallaghan in the Ireland Census 1901 living with Denis Cremin (70 y), Ellen Ocallaghan (25 y), Kate Cremin (23 y) Hannah Cremin (20 y) William Ocallaghan (30 y), Julia Lyons (10 y) Denis Ocallaghan (32 y).  Julia's decendants informed me she went to the US at 10 yrs of age but not to where my great grandfather lived in Brooklyn, NY but to Philadelphia. I have only recently been tracing this branch as the DNA match noted I am related to Julia's descendant that I assume is through my great grandfather Daniel Lyons.  I was totally unaware of this situation from any of their nine children and their descendants.

These names are like the Smiths and Jones here in the states i.e. numerous with that name. 

I will continue to see if I can locate information on Margaret Cremin Lyons here in the US. However, so far her descendants are asking me information about my great grandfather and seem to have limited information on her relatives. 

 

Again, Donie and Craig thank you for this information. I would only be related to Ellen through her sister Margaret. I provided Margaret's relatives mother Julia Ryan died 23 Mar 1900 and Denis Cremin  died  1 Nov 1911with the siblings of 

Ellen 22 Jul 1864

Mary 29 Jun 1867

Catherine 9 Dec 1869

Hanorah 15 Mar 1872

Johanna 7 Jul 1876

Kate 1878 about

Michael died 29 Sep 1929   

All in Kilshannig and Mallow Cork.

Perhaps this would be helpful in narrowing down these Cremins. As I noted all of these names are the same as my great-grand aunts. This is mind boggling to me that the names of all of my great aunts has these same names include Michael.

Denise

 

hello Denise

I was checking the Cremins and saw where Denis and Julia Ryan were the parents of Ellen so I checked the parish register to see what baptisms occurred to this pair and found the following-

Michael 25/8/1854 Gurranes

Eliza      22/12/1856 (Elizabeth)

john       20/12/1858   This John must have died before1872

mary      20/12/1858    This Mary must have died before 1867.may have been delicate twins

ellen      24/7 1864

Mary      22/3/1867 Gurranes

Illegible  9/1869        This would appear to be Catherine. Gurranes.

John       2/1/1872.   

Hannah  born 15/2/1872. Must check dates again as something does not add up.

Kate      No account. As catherine and kate are the same she may not exist.Where did you get her details

The civil state register commenced in 1864 so you would not be able to find  the first 4 above.

The birth dates would put Denis and Julia's wedding back to about  1853 but where?

Regards

Donie

 

Hi Donie,

Thank you again. Awesome. This is very helpful.

As I noted I have just started researching this branch since the ancestry DNA contact advised that her Daniel Lyons married Margaret Cremins. I was looking for information on Julia Lyons to see when she came to the US and if she tried to find my great grandfather, Daniel Lyons, who lived in Brooklyn, NY. I am connected to Julia Lyons ancestors through DNA .  I am trying to seek an explanation other than he did not marry my great grandmother Jennie Moller/Miller and have nine children together. 

This information I have below on the Cremin-Lyons was unknown to me before a couple of months ago.  The ancestry contact provided this information from her public tree.  I sent her a message email a couple of weeks ago and asked her (as this is her family tree branch not mine) where she obtained this information but she has not responded.

I located the information on Ellen in the ancestry.com Ireland Census. It has Julia Lyons living with Denis Cremin - no evidence of Julia Ryan Cremin - in that 1901 census. as I detailed above.It noted that Denis Cremin probably born 1831    Sometimes the name is spelled Crimmin as it is in the parish birth information on Ancestry Baptism Place:Glountane, Cork, IrelandParish  Variants:GlantaneDiocese:Cloyne 1864.  It has the correct parents Julia Ryan and Denis Crimmin. I am not sure if this variant of the name makes a difference but this is what I located in ancestry.

You may want to check a different spelling of their name i.e. Crimmin as this is the name that appears in the Catholic Parish Register.

 

Michael 25/8/1854 Gurranes    (does not appear in the 1901 Ireland Census under Ellen Ocallaghan)

Eliza      22/12/1856 (Elizabeth)   (not in the 1901 Irish Census)

john       20/12/1858   This John must have died before1872  (not in Irish 1901 Census)

mary      20/12/1858    This Mary must have died before 1867.may have been delicate twins   (not in Irish 1901 Census)

ellen      24/7 1864  (noted 25 in 1901 as a Ocallaghan)

Mary      22/3/1867 Gurranes ((not in Irish 1901 Census)

Illegible  9/1869        This would appear to be Catherine. Gurranes. (Not in the Irish 1901 Census)  There is a Kate Cremin age 23 in the 1901 Irish Census

John       2/1/1872.   (not in the 1901 census)

Hannah  born 15/2/1872. Must check dates again as something does not add up. (noted as age 20 in 1901 Irish Census)

Kate      No account. As catherine and kate are the same she may not exist.Where did you get her details (noted as 23 in 1901)     Ancestry public tree and Irish 1901 Census 

 

Denis Ocallaghan (32 y) and William O'Calaghan (30 y) - not sure who is married to Ellen.

 

I have Julia Ryan Cremin died 23 Mar 1900 in Cork and Denis Cremin 1 Nov 1911 in Kilshannig, Cork

Michael death 29 Sep 1929 Cork Ireland

Ellen Cremin Callaghan 21 Dec 1932 Cork, Ireland

Julia Lyons 10 Jun 1941 in US but she married a Shields

Margaret Cremin Lyons died in US 1946 believed

Kate Cremin 19 Jun 1944 no place of death

The above information is from the ancestry public tree of my DNA contact

Thank you again. I am researching this Cremin branch as they stayed behind in Ireland had had Julia Lyons and the father Denis Cremin living with them in Cork. I thought maybe some of their decendants would be alive today to solve my mystery. 

 

Denise

denise 

the Kate aged 23 in the 1901 census would appear to be a sister of margaret cremin lyons and not belong to the above family and this is why I could  not place her in Michaels family that i listed above.

I contacted the Lyons man born in Esk and he had nothing to add only that another Lyons family shared the yard in which he lived .His grandfather was Jeremiah Lyons and his father was patrick Lyons but nothing else.

regards

Donie

 

 

Hi Donie,

 

Thank you so much.   I will keep searching.  Have a great weekend.

Denise

Hello Denise

I came across this bit of information when searching for a death and it may be of interest to you.

29th May 1940 -a death notice for a Katie McSweeney of Knockdrislaught .Removal from Kilpadder Chapel to Newberry cemetery.

8th May 1960- a death notice for Kate McSweeney,Knockdrislaught.Relict of Eugene McSweeney.Removal from Kilpadder church to Newberry Cemetery.

Neither of above are on any headstone in Kilshannig cemetery but there are a few McSweeney headstones there .

Regards Donie

Hi Donnie,

I am sorry but I am just reading this now.  Thank you. I am not related to the Cremin branch of the Lyons family. My great grandmother Jennile Moller/Miller and a Daniel Lyons had nine children in New York. I am only aware of this branch and marriage through a DNA contact. 

 

.His grandfather was Jeremiah Lyons and his father was patrick Lyons but nothing else.*** Do you think this may be the Daniel Lyons I am related to? My DNA cousin is noting Daniel Lyons birth date as 23 Jan 1868 with father Michael and mother Johanna Hayslip.  Does this assist with exploring the Lyons branch. 

As always, thank you for your dedication in assist those of us "across the pond".

Denise

Hi...

 

Still trying to connect the dots i.e. partents for Daniel Lyons.

 

Any thoughts on above notation?

His grandfather was Jeremiah Lyons and his father was patrick Lyons but nothing else.*** Do you think this may be the Daniel Lyons I am related to? My DNA cousin is noting Daniel Lyons birth date as 23 Jan 1868 with father Michael and mother Johanna Hayslip.  Does this assist with exploring the Lyons branch. 

As always, thank you for your dedication in assist those of us "across the pond"

 

Thank you.

 

Denise