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Baptised before birth

I have noted a strange phenomenon among some of my forebears and their relatives - being born after they were baptised. Initially I thought there may have been transcription errors but I have since seen digital copies of birth register entries and baptism registers and there can be no doubt. There have been sufficient number of cases to be sure that this is not a random error in the original entry.

I have heard that it was not an uncommon practice among families in rural Ireland to not bother registering the birth of a child until they were going to the town where the district registry office was located. If too long a period had elapsed since the child's birth, the parents were liable to be fined. To avoid this the simple expedient of post dating the birth was used to avoid the fine. This seems like a feasible explanation, except that I heard it in Australia, so the story may not be wholly accurate.

Can anyone tell me if is known for births to be post-dated for one reason or another? If it did occur, was it a common practice? Is there a source document I can refer to?

Thank you,

Paul Ryan

Paul Anthony Ryan

10 replies

The information you have received is completely accurate. People often lived some distance from the nearest registrar and would leave it till they were in town on other business before registering a birth or death. It was a practice that continued well into the 20th century. I know someone alive today who was born in Co. Down in the 1930s whose date of birth on his birth certificate is out by 3 weeks. You will find many births registered some time after a child was baptised. It’s most noticeable with Catholics because that tradition has always been to baptise very soon after birth, so that’s usually within 7 days or less of the birth. Other denominations often left it longer before baptizing (3 or 6 months) and so you wouldn’t necessarily always be aware but they also would often move or just forget the correct date of birth.

There was a small financial penalty if you didn’t register within the specified period (which I think was 6 weeks), so people just adjusted the date of birth accordingly. But in addition I have also seen people register births on the wrong date, when no penalty would have applied.  (Eg baptismal record shows child born 1st March, baptised 4thMarch birth registered 8th March, date of birth given as 5th March.)  So they often either didn’t know or didn’t care when the birth took place.  People didn’t celebrate birthdays in Ireland in the 1800s and it just wasn’t something many families kept a record of. (Some did, but many didn’t).

When in later life officialdom asked for a date of birth, it was common just to make one up. And so that could be out by quite a bit. Something to bear in mind when searching the records. Many Irish genealogical research books mention this. In his recent book “Researching Presbyterian Ancestors in Ireland” (2020), Dr William Roulston suggests searching 5 years either side of the year you think your ancestor was born. I’d say that advice would safely apply to most other denominations.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thank you, Elwyn, for your very comprehensive reply. Since all my forebears were Catholic, I know now that I can be confident that a baptism date provides a good approximation of birth date. I had wondered about the length of time between birth and baptism; it had seemed quite short but I never felt confident to merely assume that this was so. The other very useful piece of information is the lack of significance birthdates held for many Irish. It helps explain some large discrepancies in birth year among some of my otherwise numerate ancestors.

I'm pleased that we maintained the tradition of late birth registration. We were fined the grand sum of $2 for not having registered our son within three months of his birth. In our case, though, we hadn't settled on what to call him, eventually settling on Conor, a name with which he is well pleased.

Thank you once again.

With best wishes,

Paul

 

Paul Anthony Ryan

Paul,

Catholic belief for many hundreds of years was that if a baby died before it was baptised it would be left in limbo, unable to go to heaven or anywhere else. That belief was discontinued in 1995 but up till that time it was regarded as vital to get a baby baptised as quickly as possible, so you are correct to assume that a baptismal date was close to the birth.  And a much more reliable date than the one on a civil birth certificate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL2028721620070420

Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited” perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:

“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”

I have attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thank you, Elwyn, for the information and the attachment.

You may be able to offer an insight into another puzzle, which is related to my original question.

A great-great-grandmother died 3 January 1876. She was 36. Her 12th child was "born" 27 January 1875, baptised 15 days earlier. Family legend had it that she died giving birth to this child. It was only when I obtained copies of original register entries that I was able to discount the legend. She did, however, die from puerpural fever, duration 1 week. Puerpural fever developed within three days of the birth of a child or a miscarriage, was almost invariably fatal within ten days, and would have been a most appaling death. It would seem certain that her death was associated with her 13th child. The farm was only a few kilometers from the local church so presumably the priest could have been summoned quite quickly if needed for for an emergency. There is no record of a baptism for that family around that time.

The questions that have arisen in my mind then are:

  • Were stillborn babies baptised?
  • If so, were these baptisms recorded?
  • More broadly, what was the attitude to stillbirth in that era?

It would be presumptuous of me to expect answers, which may well be contained within social histories, but I would be interested in any insights you may have.

The need for documentary proof of age to be able to claim the old age pension rang a bell. I was doing labouring work in north Queensland rainforest with a group of aborigines when I was a student. Two blokes in the gang were obviously very old, in their 80s I was told, but had no birth certificates or other acceptable form of identification that established their age. So they couldn't get the aged pension. They were given the lightest of duties and pottered along steadily. The younger blokes, some knocking on sixty themselves, kept a close but subtle eye on them.

Regards,

Paul

Paul Anthony Ryan

Paul,

Stillborn babies were not baptised. You have to be alive to be baptised. So there’s normally no record of them.

Death in childbirth or related illnesses like puerperal fever, was very common in Ireland in the 1800s. One in 8 women of childbearing age died from those causes then. There were lots of stillbirths and early child deaths too. It must have been an everyday occurrence and I assume that they took in their stride. They didn’t really have a lot of choice.

A quite interesting read about life in Ireland in the 1840s is Asenath Nicholson’s book: “Ireland’s Welcome to the Stranger.” She was a comfortably off American widow who, having had loads of Irish immigrants stay in her boarding house in New York, decided to tour Ireland in 1845 & 1846. She visited every county but one and stayed with rich and poor alike. This is her diary. It's full of interesting anecdotes about the way of life, customs & habits etc. Might give you an insight.  On page 188 there’s a story about an unfortunate 17 year old girl who had lost a leg due to an accident in her father’s mill, some 3 weeks previously. When Nicholson asked her about it, she responded: “I must submit to what the Almighty puts upon me.” I’d guess that’s how many folk saw stillbirths and the many other adverse events of their lives too.

The issue of the aboriginal men without birth certificates was replicated in Ireland. Birth registration only started in 1864. The old age pension required you to prove you were 70, but obviously no-one in 1909 who qualified (born in 1839 or earlier) would have had a birth certificate. So baptismal certificates and certain other documents were used instead. A marriage certificate could prove your age, depending on when you married, and the other thing they did was look up the 1851, and occasionally the 1841 census to see how old you were then, and calculate your age from that. (Those 2 censuses still existed until the 1922 fire). 

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

G'day, Elwyn.

My apologies for being tardy in responding. I caught up with reading the Reuter's article you provided the link for. I was unaware that "limbo was never part of Church doctrine". I must admit that at school I had always thought it a bit rough that non baptised people of good faith who had led impeccable lives were consigned to limbo while somebody who had led a truly awful life would go to heaven providing they had been baptised, repented their sins and did a stint in purgatory.

In Australia, if a baby was born live but died soon after, both birth and death were registered. However, I don't know if still born babies were registered in the past. There must be some form of recognition now as some states issue certificates that recognise a miscarriage in early pregnancy (before 20 weeks).

“Ireland’s Welcome to the Stranger" has been on my must read list for some time. I thought I had a copy; I don't ,will get one now. Our forebears had an undoubted stoicism when it came to tragic deaths, possibly because it almost expected. Certainly if you were facing a 12.5% chance of dying giving birth tto a child, you would have had no choice but to trust and hope and pray that it was not your turn. Still, I don't know that their grief was any less. I have no first hand accounts only newspaper reports and coroners proceedings of three (seperate) tragic deaths of children of Irish forebears. The mothers are not mentioned but the descriptions of the fathers' reactions are heartbreaking.

We would have been in Ireland now but for the pestilence. Our friends there seem to be faring well, or at least coping with irrepressible optimism. I hope you are doing likewise. There is a small compensation, the Irish Film Festival is streaming live for a week  starting this weekend, ann opportunity to see some fillums and catch up on a bit of Irish culture.

All the best,

Paul

 

 

 

Paul Anthony Ryan

Paul,

Yes I would recommend Nicholson’s book. Maybe a little verbose at times but she had good eye for detail, describing everyday activities eg what they ate (bread & potatoes mostly) and you get a strong feel for the whole way of life in the mid 1840s. She was a bit evangelical and kept giving out tracts. Irish people told her they thought she was “Crack’d.” She was much amused. She was tee-total and was surprised to find Irish people quite liked a drink. How little she must have known about the country when she first arrived!  She comments that as she toured around, she noted that no matter how poor and ill-clad families were, there was always enough money for tobacco and drink. An observation that is just as true today. 

Interesting descriptions of the various landlords and their relationships with their tenants. Not all the bad ones were English and not all the good ones were Irish.

Staying with a poor family, she offered to sleep on the floor (as they all did). The woman of the house would have none of that and sent a 16 year old girl out to borrow a wooden bed from a neighbour. The girl returned with the bed on her back, carrying it alone, apparently thinking nothing of the task. Nicholson was much impressed at the girls strength (as was I). I can’t see many 16 years olds today carrying a wooden bed on their back, or at least not without a load of moaning.

There’s a detailed description of a young girl leaving her townland for work in America. (Lots of howling).

Passing a field where a group of people were planting potatoes – she tells us it was done as a communal task - she noted that they had a musician playing to them as they worked. She comments that the harp was out of fashion and they preferred pipes or a flute.  Little details like that bring the book alive.

Yes we are coping fine here in Ireland. There are some minor inconveniences, like pubs being closed, but life goes on. As that 17 year old wisely commented in 1845, we must submit to what the Almighty puts upon us.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hello, Elwyn.

I now have on order Ireland's Welcome to the Stranger and Annals of the Famine in Ireland 1847, 1848, and 1849. I was on something of a roll and added Seamus Heaney (one of our favourite poets) reading his collected poems.

I was interested to read your reference to the communal planting potatoes accompanied by music - no surprise that pipes or flute preferred to harp, rather more suited to movement and fields, I would have thought. Reminsicent, also, of singing by slaves and freed black workers in the cotton fields in the US. It also reminded me of a particularly condescending piece in a regional Queensland paper in 1901: "Three new pianos have found their way into this locality lately, and I hear there are several more to follow. This is surely a sign of social advancement. It is astonishing to note the number who are going in for musical education, the blatant accordion giving way to the more classical civilised violin and piano." The community referred to was made up predominantly of Catholic Irish and Lutheran German immigrants. Despite differences in religion and heritage, the two were very close, no doubt the "blatant accordion" making a considerable contribution to the community glue.

Paul

 

 

Paul Anthony Ryan

Hello, Elwyn.

I now have on order Ireland's Welcome to the Stranger and Annals of the Famine in Ireland 1847, 1848, and 1849. I was on something of a roll and added Seamus Heaney (one of our favourite poets) reading his collected poems.

I was interested to read your reference to the communal planting potatoes accompanied by music - no surprise that pipes or flute preferred to harp, rather more suited to movement and fields, I would have thought. Reminsicent, also, of singing by slaves and freed black workers in the cotton fields in the US. It also reminded me of a particularly condescending piece in a regional Queensland paper in 1901: "Three new pianos have found their way into this locality lately, and I hear there are several more to follow. This is surely a sign of social advancement. It is astonishing to note the number who are going in for musical education, the blatant accordion giving way to the more classical civilised violin and piano." The community referred to was made up predominantly of Catholic Irish and Lutheran German immigrants. Despite differences in religion and heritage, the two were very close, no doubt the "blatant accordion" making a considerable contribution to the community glue.

Paul

 

Paul Anthony Ryan

Paul,

Yes I too wondered how likely anyone was to carry a harp a couple of miles.  (There are smaller harps that are a bit more mobile, but even so not an easy instrument to move long distances).  I wouldn't have thought you could hear it very well in a big field either and it wouldn’t be very good for the instrument if it rained.  It’s not really an outdoors instrument.  I think Nicholson’s reference must have been probably to its general popularity across Ireland rather than specifically for entertaining field workers. Who knows?

If you like Heaney, and get to visit Ireland there is a museum to him in Bellaghy Co. Derry which is well worth visiting. You can listen to various people, including Heaney himself, reading his poems, plus there’s the usual information about his life and interests.  In addition, Eugene Kielt in Magherafelt does guided tours of the area in a bus, about once a month, showing the various buildings relevant to Heaney’s life.  Covers the family farms, the GAA club where he gave his first performance, etc and finishes at his grave in Bellaghy churchyard. Well worth doing. 

http://www.seamusheaneyhome.com

One of his brothers still farms the second family farm, about a mile from Bellaghy.

I liked your anecdote about the snobbish attitude to the accordion. There were probably similar attitudes here then too. Fortunately the accordion is in high esteem these days. (The banjo and bagpipes occasionally get a bit of stick. Along the lines of  “The definition of a gentleman is someone who can play the banjo/bagpipes but doesn’t.”)

Banjo Patterson would be spinning in his grave.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

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