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Ballynure Families to Upstate NY

AntrimBallynure (Antrim)

Greetings,

First day on this site and new member; glad to be here and hoping to learn more. My Ballantine family lived in Ballynure in the late 1700's until about 1821 when they arrived in the Ogdensburg area of St Lawrence County, NY. John (1761-1833) and Mary (McShannon) Ballantine's children married into the following Ballynure families; McCullough, Dawson, Woodside, Graham, Forsythe and Clements. I've been researching for about 20 years now, and still much to learn about their time in Ballynure.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone who might be familiar with these families -

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

15 replies

You haven’t said what denomination your ancestors were, but looking at the church records for Ballynure, I don’t see any with records earlier than 1812 (Church of Ireland) so you may struggle to find a record of your family there. If you know where they lived in Ballynure (ie a townland) it may be possible to trace them in land records. Do you know any more about them?

There are no Ballantines listed in Griffiths Valuation of Ballynure c1861.

I do see a John Ballantine in Skilganaban in the tithes in 1834 and a John in Skelgan in 1833. Skelgan is probably a variation of Skilganaban, and so it’s probably the same man on the same farm. He had gone by 1861.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ballynure-parish.php#.Wo-zMxR2ug0

Skilganaban is about half a mile west of Ballynure village.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks for the quick response, Elwyn!.  My apologies, my Ballantine family were Scots-Irish and were Presbyterian.  I don't know anymore than Ballynure at the moment; that said, I have a relative named Hugh McShannon(d. 1754) who was buried in Ballynure Old Graveyard.  He was from Castletown according to "Old Families of Carrickfergus and Ballynure".

To the best of my knowledge the Ballantine's were all in the US by 1821; with exception of Andrew Forsythe and his wife, Jane (Ballantine).

Thanks again!

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

Ballynure Presbyterian has baptism & marriage records from 1819 (copy in PRONI). Presbyterians in Ireland didn’t use the parish system. Which church you attended was a matter of personal preference and so it’s possible they attended one of the other Presbyterian churches in the area eg Donegore or Kilbride. Always worth checking there.

Castletown is about half a mile east of Ballynure on the Castle Rd. The tithe applotment records for Castletown in 1834 don’t list any McShannon family there then. Having sais that, only those with land were listed, so if they were weavers or labourers, they wouldn’t be listed.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ballynure-parish.php#.WpGe0BR2ug0

There’s a William Ballentine of Ballynure town and neighbourhood, listed in the 1775 Dissenters Petitions. A dissenter was usually a Presbyterian.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks again for the great information you've provided.  My 5th great-grandfather was a William Ballantine (1743-1791), so that may have been him.  Also, in one of William's grand-daughter's obits, it mentions that "one of her grand-fathers" had to escape in a barrel.  If true, I'm guessing from the Dissenters and Rebellion time period.  Have you ever heard that story in your research?  Also, are there any good records available for those who were dissenters/rebels?

I've also read in Forsythe notes I received, that pikes were provided to some of the rebels by sending them down the stream at night.  I'll dig back and see if there is anything else in the notes that might help.

Thanks Elwyn, I had no idea when the family left Scotland for N Ireland, but William might give me more leads.

Best Regards,

Terry

TerryRB

Terry,

Dissenters was the term generally used for Presbyterians. So that was over half the population of Co Antrim.  The British Government’s aim was to try and ensure that everyone was loyal to the Crown and so they tried to persuade people into becoming members of the Church of Ireland  which was to a large extent an additional arm of the state at that time. Most Scots – though not all – were Presbyterian and mostly remained committed to Presbyterianism.  They were called dissenters because they dissented from the Church of Ireland, rather than because of any political views they held.

I have attached a document from PRONI’s collection which details some of the civil unrest in the area where your ancestors lived in the late 1700s. (I recall that it's the manuscript of a talk given in the 1920s by a local historical expert). Though there was quite a bit of support for the United Irishmen and other rebel causes, not everyone supported them, and so not every Dissenter was a rebel.  The United Irishmen weren’t very well organized, they lacked military training and they were riddled with informants so they were unlikely to have won anyway, but when the call to arms came, quite a few melted off into the night and after a few famous battles, they were quickly routed and effectively quashed. Little more was heard of them after 1798. They were completely quashed.  I have not heard of someone escaping in a barrel, but it’s possible that some did. Certainly some did have to flee for their lives. A few leaders were executed to make a point, but most of the rank and file were allowed to go free. The more awkward category was the middle ranking officers who might be instrumental in causing fresh uprisings. Executing all of them would have caused uproar but allowing them to remain in Ireland was also dangerous. So the plan was to say to each: “Your actions were treasonous and you could be tried and executed. However if you and your family agree to leave Ireland for good within a couple of months, no further action will be taken.” As a consequence most quickly jumped on a boat for north America or wherever.

Pikes were one of the rebels main weapons, and were hidden all over the place.  Some were forgotten about, and a neighbour of mine here in Antrim was renovating his farm a few years back and found some old pikes hidden in the attic of an outbuilding. They had presumably been there since 1798.

Regarding when your ancestors arrived from Scotland, I have no specific documentation relating to your family but the vast majority of Scots came in the 1600s. There was a huge influx in the very early 1600s as part of the Hamilton & Montgomery plantation. They brought large numbers of their tenants from Ayrshire. Then in the 1640 General Munro had a 10,000 strong Scottish army at Carrickfergus which he disbanded when the 1641 uprising was resolved. Many of them settled in Co Antrim rather than return to Scotland and then in the 1690s a huge influx came due to famine in Scotland.  Though no doubt some individual settlers came in the 1700s, in general, the Scots were starting to leave Ireland then for north America and elsewhere.

Huge numbers of Scots settled in Ireland in the 1600s. Some estimates put the figure at over 100,000 which represented 10% of the entire Scottish population. Co Antrim was swamped with them, and they were about 70% of the population of the county. Even today Presbyterianism (the main Scottish denomination) remains the most common in the county.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks Elwyn!

That's the best description I've read yet about the dissenters and the background for the events of the rebellion.  It makes much more sense now and I can understand why my ancestors left N Ireland for the US.  From what I have discovered so far, it seems that one may have come to upstate NY around 1806, but the main part of the family waited until around 1821.  One of the daughter's stayed until around 1850 and then came to the US, settling in Illinois.

Do you know which sea ports were used in the early 1800s by those in Antrim leaving for the US.  I've read that many sailed to Canada, then crossed the border from Montreal or Prescott.  Seems it didnt' cost as much to sail to Canada rather than sailing directly to the US.

Thanks Elwyn, I appreciate your assistance and in depth knowledge of the local history in the Ballynure area.

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

Terry,

There were direct sailings from various ports in Ireland to Canada and the US.  Belfast, Larne, & Londonderry all had sailings in the summer months in the 1820s. Many people from Ireland also sailed from Liverpool which had a lot of sailings too. (Liverpool acted as a sort of clearing house for migrants from all over Europe and so had almost daily sailings whereas there might only be two or three a month from Ireland). The Ulster Newsletter is the worlds oldest newspaper, being founded in 1725, and it's on-line on Ancestry. If you look at copies for the 1820s, you will see the various sailings advertised.

You are correct about Canada being cheaper to get to. However that was really after the US authorities decided to clamp down on the maximum numbers on board what were called coffin ships, due to overcrowding, and I think that was around the 1840s. There was no such restriction on sailings to Canada so they squeezed more on and that reduced the fares. But I don’t think that had been introduced in the 1820s. I think the US and Canada were much the same fare then.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Thanks Elwyn,

I'll do some more searching and see what I can come up with.  I really appreciate all the help and insight that you've provided; you've been a great help to me.

On a very different note (no pun intended); I've got a CD that I really enjoy by Nicci Berry called "Elements" - she's an Irish singer.  I've tried to find more of her work and more about her, but I can find nothing when I Google search, with exception of noting this particular CD.  Have you ever heard of her?  Thanks, I know that's an odd request, but wondered if you might have any ideas.

One more question if you don't mind; do you know of any phone listings for N Ireland?  I'd be curious to see if there are Ballantine's still living there and would like to attempt contact just on a long shot.  Thanks Elwyn, I appreciate your patience and kind assistance -

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

Then UK phone book is available on: https://www.ukphonebook.com Ballynure is under postcode BT39.

I see one person in the area but she is ex-directory. However she seems to be on the electoral roll if you feel like paying to view that.  Looking at my own local phone book which is for the area 10 to 30 miles miles west of Ballynure, there are about 20 listed. I note that the name is also 4 ways. Ballantine, Ballantyne, Ballentine & Ballentyne.

I haven’t herad of Nicci Berry but there are a few mentions of her on Google and The BBC have references to her on their artists page on their website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artists/6ccb82d2-d58f-4b44-b120-13b1e6c1d5b7

Youtube clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhMuQWg6vNk

I can’t tell you anything more about her save that Elements was published by Northstar music and they can be contacted on: info@northstarmusic.co.uk They are in Bury St. Edmonds in Suffolk, of all places. Sounds to me as though that might be her only album.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Hi Elwyn,

You are amazing and can always come up with an answer to any of my questions, no matter what the topic!  Thanks for the phone book link; I'll check that out and see who I might be able to contact.  I've seen the spellings many different ways (sometimes wonder if I'm even spelling it right!); I've got one set of "cousins" who got mad at each other, so one of them changed from Ballantine to Ballentine so people wouldn't think they were related.

I may have to contact Northstar just for curiosity; I've always enjoyed that album and had hoped to find more of her work.  I've even been to Bury St. Edmonds; was there many years ago when I was still in the USAF and was TDY to Mildenhall.  I recall the town had a very nice hobby shop.

Thanks again Elwyn, I appreciate your assistance very much!

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

Hi Terry,

Was your ancestor William Ballantyne the same one who was grandfather to Jean who married Andrew Forsythe?

Do you know if he had any other descendants who stayed in Ireland?

Who was the granddaughter whose obit mentioned the escape in a barrel?

Regards,

Ganstry

Ganstry

H

Hi Ganstry,

My sincere apologies for not answering your questions sooner.  I just this evening got an email notice that there was a reply to my thread, so came to see what it was.  Not sure if I missed a previous email notification, or what happened; but am very sorry to have missed your response.

Yes, William (I've also seen him listed as John/Jack, so thinking his name was William John or John William) is indeed the grandfather of Jean Ballantine (wife of Andrew Forsythe).  

I may have cited the wrong source regarding the "barrel" incident; I wasn't able to quickly find Jean's obituary, but did find a source that mentions the barrel.  It's from the Will County - Illinois: Biographical Dictionary (pgs 111-112) and references Jean and Andrew's son, David Forsythe.

It gives a pretty good synopsis of Andrew and Jean's arrival in the US.  Here's the part about the barrel:

"His wife (Andrew's) was a daughter of John Ballentyne, a farmer and tanner; her grandfather was one of the conspicuous figures in the revolutionary periods of his country, and at one time, when his life was in the greatest danger, he was conveyed out of the country in a barrel."

So this would either be William Ballantine or Jean's mother's father, who would be Jamie Shannon.  I've tried to find information about that event, but so far, have found nothing.

I hope this is helpful to you.  I'd be happy to share more if you are interested.  Just curious, are you a descendant of this line, and if so; have you done any DNA testing?  I'd be happy to compare notes on that as well.

Cheers,

Terry

 

TerryRB

Hi Terry,

I only messaged you last week so you were actually very quick in replying.

Thanks to the reference to the Wills County biographical dictionary.  I found it on Ancestry and read David Forsythe’s entry which was interesting.  It reads to me like they are referring to Jean’s Ballantyne grandfather, but as you suggest, it isn’t certain.

Where did you get the name of Jean Ballantyne’s maternal grandfather?

I’m not descended from this line, just interested in many families in the area.  I do have some sideways connections to the Forsythes.

Thanks,

Ganstry

Ganstry

Hi Ganstry,

Well, I'm glad I was inadvertantly timely at least!  I actually got the name of Jean/Jane Ballantyne's maternal grandparents from a Forsythe family history that was given to me a few years back.  It had been written by a Eudora Pond; and provided a great deal of information regarding not only the Ballantine's and Forsythe's, but the Kirk family as well.  I'd be happy to share that with you, if you'd like.  

My direct email is: atacasc@aol.com

I still have a lot of questions about the family and their time in Ballynure; hoping to learn more as we go.

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

Hi Ganstry,

Well, I'm glad I was inadvertantly timely at least!  I actually got the name of Jean/Jane Ballantyne's maternal grandparents from a Forsythe family history that was given to me a few years back.  It had been written by a Eudora Pond; and provided a great deal of information regarding not only the Ballantine's and Forsythe's, but the Kirk family as well.  I'd be happy to share that with you, if you'd like.  

My direct email is: atacasc@aol.com

I still have a lot of questions about the family and their time in Ballynure; hoping to learn more as we go.

Cheers,

Terry

TerryRB

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