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Agnes Gourley (Brown) and Samuel Brown

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Hello,

I'm trying to trace my Great great Grandparents, Agnes Gourley and Samuel Brown. They married in 1850 at Moneyreagh Meeting House (Presb.) and then moved to Belmont, Sydenham, Holywood to raise their family. I've managed to trace 8 children, 5 of whom, sadly, died as youngsters. Her father was John Gourley (? Ballykeel), but I 'm unable to determine her mother's name? Any suggestions, please, where I could look? The 5 children died between 1864 and 1869, but their church, Belmont Presbyterian didn't have a graveyard and I have no burial records. Again, any ideas please? I believe Agnes died in 1869 (record shows "Gourley" and not "Brown")  Is that likely?(that she wouldn't adopt her married name)? There is an Agnes Gourley (granddaughter of Thomas and Catherine Gourley) in the well-used Gourley Grave in St. Mary's, Comber graveyard - the birth/death dates look very plausible.. Is there any way, please, of knowing whether this is the same person - and therefore, our family?

 

Thank you for any help at all...

Kathleen Patterson

ekroth946@shaw.ca

4 replies

Kathleen,

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church so if Agnes married in Moneyreagh then that’s possibly where she was baptised. Unfortunately, according to the PRONI guide to church records, Moneyreagh Non Subscribing Presbyterian church doesn’t have any baptism records (for the 1800s anyway).  If so, you may struggle to find details of her birth. (You could check with the church just on the off chance they do have records that PRONI don’t know about).

Tracing John Gourley may be difficult. Labourers moved around a lot. I checked Griffiths (1863) for Ballykeel but he isn’t listed there. I have no easy suggestions as to how you might find him.  If he was dead before 1864 there won’t be a death certificate. That won’t help either. 

You ask about the burial places for the children that died in Sydenham. Some countries record places of burial but Ireland doesn’t, and so there’s no simple way of finding out. If there’s a family plot in and around Comber then they might be there. Quite a lot of Presbyterian churches don't have graveyards and in that situation it was common to use Church of Ireland graveyards. In and around Belfast Presbyterians were often buried in Shankill graveyard. After 1869 they also often used the City cemetery. Their records are on-line:

https://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx

Regarding Agnes being buried under her maiden name, that would be unusual. Not unknown but rare. What is the information on the death certificate? Marital status, age, address, occupation and who was the informant? It may be possible to determine if it’s the right lady from that.

If you give us the information from the Gourley grave in Comber, I’ll search and see if I can find anything about the people named there. Your John Gourley was a labourer and they often couldn’t afford a gravestone so I would be hesitant about assuming it’s your family without more information.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Elwyn,

Thank you so much for your speedy and thorough reply.

From your information, I'm going to reluctanctly accept that I had scrambled down the "Gourley" rabbit hole, refusing to come out, - when I really needed to be looking for the "Browns".

I have since found a "good match" death record for "Agnes Brown" at Ballyhackamore, Sydenham at a far younger age, 44, than I would have suspected, (which is why I probably missed it on the first go rounds!) The only part that doesn't mesh, is that Agnes would have been 18 when married and is listed as "full age" on their marriage record? (don't think I'll worry too much about that!)  It also makes my present Samuel Brown 18 years older than Agnes! Were these kind of age differences fairly common? (or should I be looking again?!!)

I'll certainly be following up on the suggested graveyards - thanks very much indeed!

Thank you, also, for your offer to check out the Gourley grave in St. Mary's, Comber - but I now, having eliminated that particular Agnes Gourley,  don't feel it's relevant anymore.  It's been a vibrant red herring for the past 3 years!!!... The grave is well "featured" on Find A Grave - with 3 generations of family interred. It was always a query for me as to why there weren't more of our family's first names!!! I believe the query is answered!

So grateful for your help...

Kathleen

 

 

ekroth946@shaw.ca

Kathleen,

Yes I agree the 1876 death for Agnes looks pretty likely. Ages were just guessed then so the age at death on the certificate might be out by a few years. 

Yes there could have been an 18 year difference in their ages. You do see that at times. 

This looks to be Samuel in the 1911 census with daughter Elizabeth. The ages have been mistranscribed in the census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Belmont_Avenue/229795/

And in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Belmont_Avenue_West/1221618/

The above Samuel died in 1913 and being a centenarian (105 according to the newspapers) his death made it into the Belfast Newsletter for 4th Sept 1913.  He was born in Monyrea in 1808. Survived by 3 daughters, 18 grandchildren and 18 gt grandchildren. He’s buried in Monyrea cemetery. I’d guess that’s where Agnes and their children might be too.

Elwyn, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘IrelandXO Volunteer

Elwyn,

Thank you so much for this - I can't begin to tell you how much it helps! (or how long I've been struggling with it!) I've got a book on the history of Moneyrea Presb. Church on order - who knows what else I may learn!

I so appreciate your helping me over this seemingly unassailable "wall"!

Kathleen

ekroth946@shaw.ca

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